Talk:Spitsbergen

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[edit] Svalbard and Spitsbergen

As far as some maps go, they note the archipelago as being the Spitsbergan archipelago, with the largest island being Svalbard.

Is this incorrect?

A recent BBC news article [1] also seemed to have the two names that way round.

Is the information here and on Svalbard correct?

zoney ♣ talk 12:28, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Yes the articles here on wikipedia are correct. Spitsbergen is the name of the largest Island in the Svalbard archipelago.
Here are a few external links confirming it [2], [3] and [4]. Shanes 12:46, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Names...

Svalbard is the Norwegian name. The international name is Spitsbergen. It is just modern Norwegian policy to replace the name Spitsbergen for Svalbard, because that's what they like to hear. Because they claimed Spitsbergen first found by Norwegians. And the name Svalbard is the only thing they ever found to prove it. No other Remains or signs are found.(it's most likely that the russian Pomors were first)

Just note that in the official Spitsbergen Treaty the name Svalbard is not mentioned at all. Even not in the official Norwegian translation.

[edit] Petrified Palms?

I had once read that there are petrified forests of palm trees in Spitzberger? Is this true, and if so, wouldn't it be worth mentioning in the article?Hi There 19:12, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Spitzbergen

The spelling with a "z" gets over a million google hits, and is a redirect here. Yet it is not mentioned as an alternative spelling. What is the difference between the "s" and "z" spellings? Is one a traditional English form, and the other the Norwegian form? TheGrappler 11:56, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

William Barents named it Spitsbergen ("sharp mountains") in 1596, and it has simply been mispelled over and over again. The correct spelling is Spitsbergen. Jonas Poole 02:08, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

"Spitzbergen" is the German spelling. "Spitz" is German for "pointed". BTW the guy who discovered it is correctly spelled Willem Barentsz. 80.218.217.188 (talk) 18:24, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

"Spitzbergen" is the Norwegian spelling, too. The z-spelling gets nearly twice as many google hits as the s-spelling, and I think the title of the article should be changed to reflect that. This Conway guy who is mentioned in the references was writing at a particularly anti-German point in British history, and before the Svalbard Treaty was signed (acknowledging, internationally, that the islands are Norwegian). So, Jonas Poole, "Spitsbergen" is not the "correct" spelling, it is simply the English language (and, possibly, Dutch) spelling. BTW you have also misspelled "mispelled".--JO 24 (talk) 11:16, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, no. The Norwegian spelling, like the English spelling, is Spitsbergen. See here, among many other places. And please don't mistake Google-hits for an accurate reflection of correct spelling. A reflection of the frequency with which a mistake is made, perhaps. Snalwibma (talk) 11:50, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, you're right and I was wrong, the Norwegian spelling is "Spitsbergen", though that name is rarely used. Google hits is a reflection of usage, it has nothing to do with what you call "correct" spelling, which in this context does not exist. "Spitzbergen" is not incorrect, it is simply not used in English. --JO 24 (talk) 12:20, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Indeed so - and of course this is the English-language Wikipedia! One reason you don't see "Spitsbergen" all that often in Norwegian is that they normally talk of Svalbard (the archipelago) rather than Spitsbergen (one island in the archipelago). Snalwibma (talk) 12:44, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
All the same, I think it is a pity to remove half the 100-year-old quote from Conway, as you did here. Quoting his words about the S-spelling being the "only correct" version, and that the Z-spelling is a "relatively modern blunder" adds value to the quote while not necessarily agreeing with him. Anyway, he is in fact right - the S spelling is correct in English! I am inclined to revert (though I am not going to squabble). Snalwibma (talk) 17:15, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

I got called away half way through chopping that quote without having "saved" my explanation. Sorry. What I meant to say is that this article is part of WikiProject Norway. Their guidelines say, "For...geographical entities, the official Norwegian name is used for the article, with redirects for English names when known". It is the Norwegian spelling that takes precedence not the English. In this case the spelling is the same, but it means that however the English spelling was derived, and whether it is "correctly" spelled, is immaterial to the article. I was therefore chopping the old boy on "correctness". I agree with you that this isn't worth a squabble, though!--JO 24 (talk) 20:05, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

No problem. I rather liked the phrase "relatively modern blunder", but I am happy to accept your reasons, and to see it slip away quietly. Snalwibma (talk) 08:48, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

No, now you've made me feel guilty, so I'm putting it back. I have revised the seed vault paragraph instead.--JO 24 (talk) 14:07, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

I revised the Spits/Spitz parenthesis because it generated some confusion as to which spelling was derived from Dutch. The account of the origin of the name, in the next section, covers this in sufficient detail; there's no need to bring Dutch origins into the first sentence of the article. -- Rob C. alias Alarob 14:02, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

"Spitzbergen" is just the German spelling. It is misleading to call it a "misspelling", although I agree there is no reason to use it outside a German language context. dab (𒁳) 14:47, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

No its not. If you are writing in English and you spell Spitsbergen with a "z" you would be MISSPELLING it. It was discovered by the Dutch, so when writing in English it should be spelled with an "s." I don't know how else to explain it. If you spell Spitsbergen any other way other than the correct spelling while writing in English you would be MISSPELLING it. Its that simple. You're not writing in German, so it wouldn't be correct to spell it with a "z." The end. Jonas Poole (talk) 23:25, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

The german Name for the Archipel, and also the Island "Spitsbergen" was, and still is "Spitzbergen".
The word "spits" (which means "sharp") is de facto a loanword from the german (spitz), therefore it makes sense to use "spitz" in german.
Conway was indeed wrong when he said that this is a new form, "Spitzbergen" is simply the retranslation!
"Spitsbergen is the only correct spelling; Spitzbergen is a relatively modern blunder. The name is Dutch, not German. The second S asserts and commemorates the nationality of the discoverer."
Conways cite is completely misleading, and therefore should be removed. Neither the is writing "spitz" newer, nor is the dicoverer a danish. (the most likely order is: vikings(12 cenury),russians(16 century),danish(1596); for more information read the well written russian page about Spitsbergen or consider a history book)
I personally dislike the way Conway says that any other writing then "Spitsbergen" is wrong, because what is with the French "Spitzberg", or Špicbergenas, Spicbergo and however it is called in other languages..
It's kind of stupid to say all these writings are "blunder"!
btw. in an article by the NYTimes 1897 the island was spelled after the german, Spitzbergen:
http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9D01EED91230E333A2575AC1A9609C94669ED7CF
so it seems that both forms, Spitsbergen and Spitzbergen once been popular in the english language, and Spitzbergen became less popular in :England (and later also in the USA) because of anti-german views before and during the first World War.
When i removed the ref i thought that it's absolutely clear that someone put it in the article just to be offensive, and i removed it therefore without a look in the discussion, but i hope now i made my point clear and understandable.
Truthlobby (talk) 12:18, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
What Conway said is not at all "kind of stupid" - it's a historical quote that provides a useful context to the spelling variation. Perhaps what is in fact needed is a bit more text in the article about spelling variations, and how both the S and the Z spellings have been used in English, and how/when/why the "correct" usage (i.e. the fashion) changed. I'll have a think about it. But I assure you that the addition of the quote was in now way intended to be offensive - I thought it was an interesting historical viewpoint that deserved to be represented, especially as there is (still) some confusion and uncertainty about how to spell the name. I am not interested in an edit-war, but I will work on an expansion that reinstates Conway and explains it a bit better. Snalwibma (talk) 12:44, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
True, i see your point. Would be a good source to explain the whole spelling thing! I hope to bring in some constructive pieces, I'll also think about that. Because actually it would be sad to loose the quote just because it was in a "misleading" context. Truthlobby (talk) 14:04, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Are you serious? I know of no evidence of the Vikings discovering Svalbard (what they called Svalbard was most likely Jan Mayen, and not modern Svalbard, see Jan Mayen page), the Pomors aren't mentioned until the late 17th century, and it was discovered by the Dutch (not the Danish) in 1596. And why are you citing some random NY Times article that used the incorrect spelling of Spitsbergen? I'm having a hard time understanding your logic here. Ok, its this simple. In 1596 Barentsz called his discovery Spitsbergen, which is the only correct spelling in English, seeing as how he wasn't German. It is that simple. I don't understand why this is even a debate. One last time to finally end this debate. It was discovered by the Dutch, so when writing in the English language (not German, French, or any other language that spells the name differently) it should be spelled SPITSBERGEN. Really, this is the end. Geeze. Jonas Poole (talk) 00:32, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I'm serious. I meant Dutch, that should be clear out of the context, if you had read the whole thing. It's a bit sad that you change the article without arguments, that's not really constructive! So you say "this is the end" and that makes your way of sight the right one? Truthlobby (talk) 16:50, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

So "Spitzbergen" is simply a "retranslation"? Sure it is. That makes no sense! I'm sorry. I honestly thought you were joking when you said that. I can't believe this is even an arguement. There is no other side. It should be spelled Spitsbergen (when writing in English, Danish, Dutch, or Norwegian), and that's it. I read your whole rant several times, because I was having trouble understanding your arguement. It doesn't make any sense. And when did Conway ever say it was a "newer" form? All he said is that writers from Martens (1671) down had misspelled Spitsbergen with a "z". Have you even read No Man's Land (1906)? I doubt it. Like I've said several times now, this debate (non-debate) is over. There is no issue. Its not offensive (only to you maybe). The end. Jonas Poole (talk) 00:20, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, Spitzbergen is the GERMAN 'retranslation'! I meant this in a language-historical background, however. Even if Spitsbergen is the only correct form in english, Spitzbergen is not a misspelling, it's still the widely used german variation. And If you really prefer to see Spitzbergen as a completely wrong spelling, it would still make sense to refer to the german version, otherwise someone could think that the 700.000 hits on google are all just mistakes. I hope that was more understandable. The internet has no end. Truthlobby (talk) 16:05, 20 April 2008 (UTC)