Talk:Spain/Archive 4

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14-M

Just this sentence: besides possibly affected national elections scheduled for March 14, three days after the attack, which was, arguably, the main goal of the terrorists. is enough compromise to POV to grant the section the tag. There are other subtle phrases in the paragraph that are suspiciously written.--David (talk) 10:35, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Hi David. I added a reference to that excerpt you are mentioning here. As for the other phrases which you find suspiciously written, it would be better point them out, discuss their rephrasing if it was necessary than than simply tagging the section, dont you think? Mountolive all over Battersea, some hope and some dispair 11:31, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
Hi, Mountolive. Adding some dubious web references does not eliminate the POV, the wording of the phrases has to be changed as I did. Remember that we must only tell the different points of view, not incorporate them as facts in the body of the article. The goal of the terrorists is not known, even "arguably", and "arguably" itself is not NPOV. David (talk) 11:47, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

David, I have partially restored a removed excerpt indicating that the effect of the bombings were harmful for the PP expectations. It is self-evident and doesnt need much discussion the fact that no party wants to see hundreds of demonstrators in front of their premises calling this party leaders liars a mere couple days before the elections are to be held, while all is being covered by an intensive media attention. Then, as a rule of thumb, if it affected negatively the PP, then it affected positively the PSOE, so I was originally going to restore this one too. But then I thought maybe it is this part which you dont find neutral, so this latter part, I have finally ommitted it. Note that it is 'the effects' of the bombings (i.e. the popular reaction) which is the subject of the sentence, not the bombings themselves. For the bombings themselves could have had as their effect a popular gathering around the ruling party, but it was the contrary what happened. In other words, the bombings are one thing, and the inference and responsabilities of both PP and PSOE outcomeleaders in the turmoil that followed is another thing (which this article is not the right place to explain in detail). Hope you agree. Mountolive all over Battersea, some hope and some dispair 19:29, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Ok, I will. Now it looks more neutral. David (talk) 07:42, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
WP:Verifiability is not an excuse to present conspiracy theories that present the point of view of a minority. WP:Verifiability is not to be interpreted alone (as the policy clearly states) but in conjunction with WP:NPOV and WP:OR. Giving a conspiracy theory, while referenced, WP:UNDUE weight by making it an encyclopedical affirmation is not compliant with WP:NPOV. If due weight is to be given, the theory that a political party, the PSOE "backed up" the bombings (or at least the rendering of that sentence seemed to imply that), it should be qualified as such, as the minority—and extremist—opinion of one POV-source not as a fact verified by proofs. I strongly suggest eliminating that qualification which has all the necessary ingredient to become a politically-charged bomb that will trigger unnecessary edit-wars of users that will bring POVs to accuse either party (PP or PSOE) of conspiracy theories. I would be more than happy to request the aid of an administrator or even for mediation, if you guys deem it appropriate. --the Dúnadan 19:37, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
I have to disagree with this removal. Wikipedia gathers all kinds of conspiracy theories and that doesnt mean that wikipedia endorse them, just collect them based on their relevance. Unfortunatelly, it is not so easy to find a reliable source (not biased) supporting that claim, but good faith advises that we shouldnt eliminate an excerpt which rings true (don't know how familiar you are with this, Dúnadan, but maybe David can support me if I say that, yes, some people think that the PSOE "backed" the turmoil in front of PP premises by sending sms -I seem to remember that one was 'caught' doing so from his 'official' phone- or by pledging to and amplifying unconfirmed Cadena SER reports which turned out to be wrong in the end).
If the problem with this removed sentence is the reference (I am not happy with it either) then just restore this removed sentence unreferenced. If the problem is the verb (to back) then just find a better verb to cover the action. But concealing this state of mind (whether we like it or not) it is not the best idea.
As for the edit-wars, I think that line has been there for years and I haven't seen any of those...so far. Mountolive all over Battersea, some hope and some dispair 12:57, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
I honestly don't think conspiracy theories are encyclopedical (you will not find them in Britannica, Hispanica, Encarta), and unless clearly identified as such, they violate WP:UNDUE.
To say that the PSOE backed up the Madrid bombings (which is different from backing the "turmoil", but even that...), even if sourced with a POV reference, is not compliant with the other policies in Wikipedia. "Good faith" has three unavoidable limitations (CITE, OR and NPOV). Remember that what "rings true" or is a "state of mind" based on reports that turned out to be wrong in the end, and cannot be fully verified, cannot be included in Wikipedia. If at all, all sorts of conspiracy theories could be included (and even there I have my reservations) in a very specific article, say 14-M Bombing attacks at Madrid, but not in the general Spain article.
It would be similar to including a sentence in the History section of United States saying that the Bush administration was behind the 9/11 attacks, according to some sources. Or, as you know, there are hundreds of conspiracy theories of "Spain" against Catalonia, of which I could find dozens of "sources", some of which, to many people "ring very true", but they are not included in Wikipedia, and probably should not, as you would probably agree.
But I would be more than happy to ask (an) administrator(s) and other users with good-standing for their opinion and/or mediation, if you like.
--the Dúnadan 16:09, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

If what you are getting from the removed redaction is that the PSOE backed the bombings, then it is indeed an unfortunate one. I'd say that the idea behind that removed excerpt is that, yes, the PSOE backed the turmoil which followed and some PP members resent that. This hardly falls in any conspiracy theory whatsoever. It could be documented that the PSOE did nothing to stop the turmoil which followed, but actually 'massaged' it somehow (how much it was involved is impossible to determine nor should make us bleed here: for some it would be the main agent behind the demonstrations, for others just supported and joined them).

I would do it myself, but I guess you will feel more comfortable with your own wording, so please feel free to work on a clearer redaction to better express this if you find the removed excerpt misleading the way it was. Mountolive all over Battersea, some hope and some dispair 17:51, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

This was the original sentence: "These incidents are still a cause of discussion, since some factions of the PP suggest that the elections were "stolen" by means of the turmoil which followed the terrorist bombing, which was, according to this point of view, backed by the PSOE."... terrorist bombing which was... backed up. I guess it was a very unfortunate "redaction".
But you missed my point when I said "turmoil... even that". Two questions I have in mind:
  • Are there any reliable and irrefutable proofs that PSOE backed up the "turmoil" than [naturally] ensues a terrorist attack besides sms messages that turned out to be false or any other "theories" but not "facts"?
  • If so, is a purported "backing up" of turmoil a water-shed historical event, on par with, say, the Civil War, that merits the inclusion of this theory in the History Section? Aren't there any other suspicions on the same event, backed up by other politicians/historians, or of other events that would merit their inclusion?
I think this is a more political issue, not a hard fact, and users will probably "back up" the parties they support (or they sympathize, even if mildly).
I'll invite a couple of admins and unrelated users (users with good-standing in other issues that are not involved in Spanish or Catalan-related articles) to ask for their opinions, if that is fine with you.
--the Dúnadan 19:51, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
I see what you mean much better now that you isolate this sentence and put some focus on it. And you are right, it could be wrongly inferred that the PSOE was behind the bombing somehow, which is indeed extreme, disparated and doesnt merit recognizition in the Spain article.
But, as I said before, I think the point which merits recognition is some PP ranks and numbers being resentful of how the PSOE handled the aftermath of the bombings.
As it is, the PSOE (and other parties) view of the events is reflected in the text. They'll tell you that the interim PP government lied. The PP will tell you that they were just promptly passing the info they were receiving from the CNI, and that this was changing. Since we lack (and will continue to) any Congressional committee to determine who is (more) right on this, then the article would be imbalanced towards the PSOE if only their view is reflected as it (partially) is with the current "redaction" (what's the problem with "redaction" to put it in quotation marks?).
I may try some wording soon. Feel free to work on it if you found it not ok. Mountolive all over Battersea, some hope and some dispair 20:15, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
I might not be expressing my concerns properly. Wording (what you call redaction) is not the problem, content is. This is still a theory, conspiracy theory, which is based on speculation and it is unproven, whether because of lack of constitutional or congressional resources or not. Like I said, there are dozens of possible "theories" concerning 14-M incriminating both parties (I've heard preposterous claims that seem to ring "true" to some, incriminating PP), and that's all they are, theories. They might seem plausible and "ring true" to you, but they are by no means WP:FACTS. Like I said, I could bring a dozen conspiracy theories regarding Catalonia, that ring true to many Catalan ears and that some users we both know will erase them without thinking twice. PSOE adherents will probably object to that "theory" being presented in an encyclopedia (and no encyclopedia ever presents unproven theories), and would point out to other "proofs" against PP of this or other events. I suggest we stick to facts and leave the interpretations and possible theories, politically oriented, for forums.
--the Dúnadan 21:20, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
Leaving aside for one moment the rights or wrongs of the way the issue is described here, it just seems to me fundamentally unbalanced to have this issue dominating the 21st Century section of the article about Spain. For some people in Spain the effect of the train bombings on the elections is clearly the most important event, but I think most people outside of that political argument would regard the bombings themselves as being the key event that requires attention. In any case, I think the correct place for examination of the issue in any detail is inside the article about the bombings or one of its associated articles - despite the lamentable state of those articles.
On the issue itself, it is really a very partisan viewpoint that the demonstrations outside PP headquarters are what changed the outcome of the elections. There were only a few thousand people protesting, it wasn't shown on most TV channels and the idea that this is what brought about the change of government is frankly very far fetched. Most respectable analysis of the elections will focus on the fact that voters sympathetic to the left were mobilised in greater numbers than on previous occasions, it would be extremely simplistic and distorted to suggest that happened just because of a few sms messages. The suggestion in any case that the elections were "stolen" should never appear - I don't know of any respectable source suggesting anything other than that the results are a reflection of the number of votes cast. Southofwatford (talk) 10:35, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
Dúnadan, I think you are wrong this time. If the only acquaintance I had from you was the above post, I'd say that you consider wikipedia like revelated Truth. But I know you know (we know) this is not wikipedia's function, to spread truth, just to (try to) spread knowledge.
The text you are removing is clearly stating that some sectors of the PP believe that the PSOE fueled turmoil, in the same fashion as the text as it is now quotes PSOE as accusing PP of not telling the truth. You know very well there is quite some difference in saying that someone thinks something than then endorsing those reflections.
You also know very well that, in the end, in politically charged articles, wikipedia has to be presenting all notable point of views. And that is what the excerpt removed tries to.
Sure, there are lots of conspiracy theories, some completely disparated (even to the point of laughter) others which may "ring true" to some and may ring as utter crap to others.
But, in the end, there are only two versions of the aftermath which are relevant enough. One is that of the PSOE, which accuses the interim PP government of not telling the truth. This one is present in the text already.
The other one is that of the PP, which accuses the PSOE of fueling the incidents. This one is the one you removed, despite being notable and properly referenced. Dunno how much familiar you are with the topic, but, for users who are not, Alfredo Urdaci is a quite notable (conservative) journalist. He even came to head the news service at the public Spanish TV (TVE) appointed by the PP. You may agree with him or not, but one thing is clear: he is not a crazy man or something, nor he is a common guy unrelated to this either professionally or politically (like some of the conspiracy theorists). Therefore I would appreciate it if you didnt just didnt remove the (few) valid referenced pieces I could possibly bring.
Yes, looks like you havent expressed your concerns properly so far. In the beginning it looked like you wanted to bar the PP version of the story. Then I thought that you were only concerned about the neutrality of the "redaction" and, because your concern, I think the new wording is both much more exact and NPOV than before's, besides, the new reference is also much better. Thanks for the inspiration.
But now it looks once again like you wanted to block this point of view by removing again the new wording along with the new reference. You did so first by saying that it could be misleading. I agreed it was and has been changed. Now you are erasing the new phrasing once again and that's when I think you are wrong. The new phrasing you just erased -and I am restoring- is not misleading, it is actually very clear. As for its trustworthiness, it is the reader to decide which one political account from the aftermath s/he prefers, if s/he wants to swallow one, that is to say. But for that we need both sides to be represented in the text.
On the face of your repeated reversions, I guess you were right with one thing from the beginning: yes, better call an administrator. I thought the matter was clear enough without bothering anybody nor engaging in protracted discussion, but looks like I was wrong and you are right, so, yes, please get the attention of some administrator to this case and let it be soon: at least this time (for a change) looks like the matter could be speedily solved.
Per previous exchanges we have had, I'd say that you are more familiar than myself with the fantastic (petty side of) wikipedia, that is why I'd appreciate it if you took the necessary steps to report this (petty) incident. In this regard I would appreciate it if you confirmed whether my belief is correct or not that removing validly referenced statements is regarded as vandalism.
Vandalism or not, and despite my ignorance of wikirules beyond good faith, I'd say I am not asking too much if I asked you to please bear with the restored excerpt -if my explanations here aren't satisfactory enough- until at least one administrator has expressed his/her opinion, because it is a referenced statement per NPOV concerns, and that has a value by itself Mountolive all over Battersea, some hope and some dispair 12:09, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
It's entirely unfair to suggest that the removal of the Urdaci interview clip (which is neither properly attributed or placed in any sort of context - where does it come from?) is vandalism. To imply that any removal of sourced information is vandalism would probably mean that many of the best editors in Wikipedia are vandals! The issue of the controversy surrounding the elections is already included in other articles where it has greater relevance and can be given the depth it requires - to duplicate such coverage here is content forking and leaves the section on an important event completely unbalanced. Southofwatford (talk) 12:41, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
I suggest replacing the disputed paragraph with something along these lines:
Although initial suspicions of responsibility for the bombings focused on the Basque group ETA, evidence soon emerged indicating possible Islamist involvement. Because of the proximity of the election, the issue of responsibility quickly became a source of political controversy. The opposition accused the government of attempting to conceal the truth about those responsible, whilst the governing PP accused opposition parties of being behind street protests outside of their headquarters.
It's a rough version which can be improved, but it attempts to summarise the controversy without introducing insinuations about the legitimacy of the electoral process that took place. It also leaves more in-depth discussion for other articles, thus allowing the bombings themselves to be portrayed as the significant event here.
Southofwatford (talk) 13:19, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
    • I absolutely approve this new paragraph you propose. Mountolive's view of the whole thing is too biased, that's why I instantly put a NPOV tag as soon as I read it. I've trying to "swallow" it as it is now, with all the recent patches... but it still reads awfully and "smells" like certain something. You are right, let's put the stress on the importan event, that is the killing of 191 innocent people. Leave the controversies to other articles, don't put THIS in Spain. David (talk) 16:09, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
We should not use conspiracy theories in this article re 14-M, it may well be appropriate on wi9kipedia, we have lots of conspiracy theory articles, but this is the article on Spain. Thanks, SqueakBox 15:28, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Guess what, I am not really opposed to the paragraph suggested by Southofwatford...but I can't help noting it is saying basically the same thing than before, but just in a more vague way, isn't it? It just shies away from the concrete description of it. Do you guys realize about that? Are you aware that your point of view sounds like "we will only tolerate a mild account of it, but what they say is just too heavy to appear here" (that was before SqueakBox eliminated any unconvenient remnant, of course)....sounds like self-imposed censorship, doesnt it? Is it hardcore porn for you to quote PP sectors accusing the PSOE of being behind a massive sms sending? If that was the case, please excuse my gross taste here.

In contrast, I'd like to think that readers here have a high enough IQ to make their own appreciations as long as the partisan character of from both sides is clear. I'd like to think that they could be spared a mix of good faith&bias censorship like the one that has been instated.

It looks like you guys are just too uncomfortable with the massive sms theory, and the fact that you don't like it is enough grounds for you to remove it despite it being properly referenced (in the words a very prominent journalist which was a part of the story). The fact that you won't let a referenced text to appear and illustrate how a significant tract of people sees it, but you prefer to substitute it by a more general P.C. account, it actually speaks of your own bias and insecurities. And then SqueakBox came to finish the job and ease any remaining insecurity.

So let's make a summary of the story before I run away from here: some sectors in the PP have their own views of what happened in the aftermath of the attack, a number of PP ranks have stated so along with the media related to the PP; I was lucky enough to find a proper reference to cover it (it's not so easy sometimes). Then the next thing we know is that you guys remove it both text and reference on the grounds of this being biased, like if the text didnt make very clear that this is a claim from the PP. In contrast, the PSOE version of it (that the government lied) is not a conspiracy theory in your view, you assume it as true, am I wrong? Next question would be on which grounds do you base your claims of the PSOE account of the story being the good one. But dont worry, I think it's clear enough to spare everybody some confusing blabla about how neutral you are.

But what I find really astonishing is that, still, you (David, in this case) have the dazzling chutzpah to call me biased ¿?¿?

I thought expressing all views and support them by a proper quote was one of the main parts of the 'business' here in wikipedia. And I still think it despite your latter-day mix of P.C.&bias, but I definitely forgot of the power of mob rule, though.

Because no one seems interested anymore in calling an administrator to shed some light here, right? Apparently you have decided that it's much better to have two or three editors with the same ideas to settle what fits and what doesnt fit in here...because there is always the risk of an administrator would see it differently.

By the way, SqueakBox, very nice work of suppressing any additional "inconvenient" text remaining (inconvenient for your POV, that is to say). Now you have completed the circle and readers are finally deprived of the PP account of the story. Only the PSOE one is in the text now...just the way a-ha, a-ha you liked it.

You are right if you thought that the rest of editors here wouldnt have any problem with your further unilateral removal (no one has said anything, looks like they won't). You were a bit more drastic than them and went straight to a good old-fashioned deletion of content. They were a bit more diplomatic and just changed the wording for it to appear more palatable for left-wing editors. But, don't worry, SqueakBox, I actually salute bold editors like you in imposing their POVs over more sneaky ones which drag you dawn to too much blabla and wasted time in talk pages only to impose a similar result in the end.

I have to appreciate the straightness of your removal of the last "uncomfortable" content, which you "based" (that's a manner of speaking) on the fact that "it is not referenced", acting like if {{Fact}} tags weren't there handy to avoid unilateral removals like yours or like if all similar statements (and quite bolder) throughout this article were referenced unlike that one. You have understood well the 'rationale' (?) behind the previous editions: validly referenced text was frowned upon, changed and de-referenced. And now you finish the job by removing whatever remains on the grounds that is not referenced....chapeau! hats off!

All of a sudden, it's like you shifted (when you saw it fit) from a vague anti-conspiracy sentiment (which is contradictory with wikipedia's WP:NPOV and WP:NOTE policies) back to the zealous wikipedian, which won't do without a referenced text...if the now unreferenced text (from which the anti-conspiracy guys removed the reference in the first place) is contrary to your beliefs, that is to say. In the meantime, the former anti-conspiracy lot are looking the other way already. Heck....it's in between a masterpiece of POV pushing and predictable behaviour!.

I am not familiar with what happened there, but after SqueakBox's additional whitewashing here I'm starting to make my own ideas about why he was blocked for an entire year at José Luís Rodríguez Zapatero...you don't like other users casting shadows on your man, do you?

Anyway, guys, it looks like, after all has been said and done, you won't let wording you dont like in, whether referenced and notable or unreferenced, all on the grounds that it is a conspiracy theory. And you are not interested anymore in an administrator paying a look in here either. In turn, PSOE's (and others's) conspiracy theory (that the government knew it, but lied) is ok for you.

So, it all comes down to you knowing better about what is a gross conspiracy theory (PP's, which is not worth it even mention here, referenced or not) and what is a true and good account of the aftermath (PSOE's).

Interesting.

Enjoy your time here.

Mountolive all over Battersea, some hope and some dispair 20:30, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

My dispute at Zapatero was political, with a young PP supporter. Actually I like Aznar too, what I do not really like is us blackwashing either side and I think Dunadan's latest edit really helps balance things out here. Thanks, SqueakBox 23:29, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

100% agree with you Mountolive - a key part of the article has been intentionally reduced to only the PSOE's version and now the article is clearly biased.

'Although initial suspicions of responsibility for the bombings focused on the Basque group ETA, evidence soon emerged indicating possible Islamist involvement. Because of the proximity of the election, the issue of responsibility quickly became a source of political controversy. The opposition accused the government of attempting to conceal the truth about those responsible'

I certainly agree that we need an admin here to shed some light and to balance this article as the editors are only giving 1 version of what happened (the version they like) and omitting key facts that ultimately had a direct impact on the outcome of the election (and because of its relevance it has to appear here). I am familiar with what happened that night, am a spaniard who lives abroad, didn't vote in 2004 and isn't into politics but I can certainly confirm that the PSOE played a very active role in those 3 days from the 11-14 and that there were SMS been sent to everyone (just as Mountolive detailed). So SqueakBox and David, this is not 1 of the 14 conspiracy theories, it really happened just as Mountolive described and your text needs to be re-written. Having a biased article in the main page of my country isn't acceptable. I urge you to do it. Charlygc (talk) 22:17, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

I will keep this post short, while trying to answer some of the concerns expressed by some editors above:
  • WP:Verifiability requires the source to be reliable and non-questionable. An interview in which a person speaks of unproven speculations is a questionable source. Therefore removing it is compliant with Wikipedia's standards. Let's not debase verifiability; even sources that "deny" the Holocaust can be "verified" (in the sense that they can be accessed online), but that does not mean they are Reliable.
  • Needless to say, personal opinions ("it really just happened just as ... described"), are obviously non-compliant with Wikipedia's standards for inclusion. That opinion (not based on facts but on speculation) would be shared by like-minded users with similar political preferences, and will be opposed by others.
  • Please avoid ad hominem arguments and personal direct or indirect attacks towards other users (i.e. "sneaky", "biased", "insecure"). Let's keep a high polite standard in our discussions.
  • My proposal is to end the sentence at "...quickly became a source of political controversy". There is no need to recount the details of the controversy, and much less to state or cite unproven speculations and conspiracy theories. No need to say that PSOE accused the PP of lying, and no need to say that PP speculates on the content of the purported million messages sent. I think that would satisfy all parties.
  • Charlygc, welcome to Wikipedia. Some of your proposals cannot be included in the article. As a new user, I invite you to read the three main guidelines of our community: Neutral Point of View, Verifiability and No Original Research. These three policies are the foundation and the standard for everything that gets posted in the articles. There are more policies that are also important, but these three are non-negotiable. I would recommend that you read them thoroughly, as they will shed light on what can be included in an article and what cannot. Abiding by these three policies will assure you a pleasant time in our community.
--the Dúnadan 23:21, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
  • I won't comment anything about the personal attacks, all I will say is that the text is now closer to perfection, that is our community's ultimate goal. The reason why I started the changes, as I said, is that the previous text was clearly biased and not NPOV, it showed only the right wing's POV. The author of that text has shown here his thoughts on this, that seem to be very strong. David (talk) 08:25, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

As for the comments addressed to me above, please bear with me with the 'sneaky' reference, for it was probably out of a general frustration with some past outcomes in other articles than with this one or with either Dúnadan, David or Southofwatford. So, if you found this comment out of hand, my apologies: it wasn't really addressed to you guys after all.

As for the bias and insecurities comments, I state my claim, though. Everyone has a bias (me too) and no one should feel offended here in wikipedia if they are reminded of their own bias (unless they feel 'insecure' about having it and showing it ;).

Also agree with keeping a high polite standard here. And that should also include not showing such a thin skin that would twist other user's comments (my own, in this case) to turn them into "personal attacks" just because, for example, I say someone is biased (I have been called "too much biased" and I dont regard it as a "personal attack"). If someone felt any of my comments like a "personal attack", then it's probably himself who should read them again and decide whether that was falls into the category of personal attack or whether they actually overreacted for a moment out of the heated discussion. I apologized for the sneaky reference, for that wasnt fair but a product of the very same heated discussion. Anyone, please feel free to amend yourself if you think that calling my comments "personal attacks" was a bit out of hand, too.

The solution proposed is ok. It would be best to have both sides of the story, but if the choice is having one or none, the latter is best.

After all, there is a main article for further elaboration and, actually, the goal in this Spain article should be better compressing it than expanding existing info. I guess this is what they mean by "less is more". Mountolive all over Battersea, some hope and some dispair 18:07, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

No longer "Colony"

This article states that spain shares a land border with the "Colony of Gibraltar". Gibraltar is no longer a "Colony", and should more accurately be described as the "British Overseas Territory of Gibraltar" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.120.229.189 (talk) 17:17, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

I am disagree. Gibraltar is a colony. "British Overseas Territory of Gibraltar" (exhausting to say) is just a circumlocution. Word "Gibraltar" comes from arabian ""Jeb-el-Tarik"...British? I don´t think so...

Gibraltar is not a colony because its inhabitants have decided many times via referendum to be inside the United Kingdom. --147.83.137.103 16:57, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

As of 2007 not only is Gibraltar being considered a colony but also a "Non-self-governing territory" by United Nations UN SPECIAL COMMITTEE ON DECOLONIZATION even if it has conducted an internal referendum. The status of Gibraltar as an English colony comes from the Utretch Treaty of 1713. I think UN is a respectable source of the current state of affairs. Gallando 01:57, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

I have restored British overseas territory. The term "colony" was dropped in 1981 under the British Nationality Act 1981. And Gibraltar also has full internal self-government under its constituion. — Chris.B | talk 15:35, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
a) Geoff Hoon, UK Minister for Europe, in a statement to Parliament: It has also been the UK's longstanding view that none of its remaining Overseas Territories, including Gibraltar, should remain on the UN list of non self-governing territories.
b) Emyr Jones Parry, the Permanent Representative of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland to the United Nations: The new constitution provides for a modern relationship between Gibraltar and the United Kingdom. I do not think that this description would apply to any relationship based on colonialism.
The term 'colony' is sufficiently outdated that the UN no longer use the word except in a historical context, and neither should we. --Gibnews (talk) 18:06, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

This's a burocratic and politic dissimulation similar to the miraculous conversion of the Spanish colonies of the Sahara, Ifni and Equatorial Guinea (then Fernando Poo and Rio Muni) into provinces. I, like Spanish that I am, respect British sovereignty of Gibraltar only and only because that this is the political situation that Gibraltarians want, but not because the UK had historical or political rights. LasMatas01 13:49, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Owners of Spain?

"the two owners of spain are emma bruce and jessica tomkinson."

Somebody can explain the first sentence of the article? Thnx. Carlos. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.148.55.245 (talk) 16:08, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Latin Europe

Hello Spain/Archive 4! There is a vote going on at Latin Europe that might interest you. Please everyone, do come and give your opinion and votes. Thank you. The Ogre (talk) 21:00, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

HIspanic demonym

Using Hispanic to refer to the demonym is inaccurate! The term is used in so many ways, and it almost never refers to just people from spain, but more to a culture related to the spanish language (and one could claim to a lesser extent, portuguese). Why has the article been modified in this respect? The demonym Spaniard and Spanish should be the only ones there! Nahuelmarisi (talk) 17:16, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Demonym is incorrect.

The demonym should only be Spanish or Spaniard. "Hispanic" is a generalized and incorrect "ethnic" term used only in the United States to identify Spanish language speakers. Moreover, there are many different nationalities/ethnicities within Spain itself, which would not be represented by this incorrect term. Spanish or Spandiard is the overall correct and collective term to identify the different people/nationalities within the Kingdom of Spain. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.99.70.230 (talk) 02:00, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree, in the English language the correct word is Spanish or Spaniard, not Hispanic. --the Dúnadan 16:29, 6 April 2008 (UTC)