Talk:Soy milk

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This article is part of WikiProject China, a project to improve all China-related articles. If you would like to help improve this and other China-related articles, please join the project. All interested editors are welcome.

???

This article has not yet received a rating on the quality scale.

[edit] Title

Throughout our industry, and for the past 25 years, the standard spelling of this word in English has been "soymilk," not "soy milk." In fact the U.S. Food and Drug Administration strongly prefers that spelling to further differentiate the product from "milk" (from cows or goats) 67.174.247.242 02:16, 1 April 2007 (UTC) William Shurtleff, founder of Soyinfo Center and author of five books on soymilk.

I am not opposed to changing the title to "Soymilk". However since you are basing this on a quote, please link to the source or provide a reference so that people don't arbitrarily change it back and forth. VanishingUser 02:48, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Nomenclature"

I don't actually get the point of this section. To a large part, this is just translations of the term "soymilk" into other languages. I think part of this should be integrated into other paragraphs, or renamed something like "Soymilk in other parts of the world". As a first step I deleted the parts referring to Spanish and Russian (which were really mere translations of the term, entirely pointless). Lodp 20:16, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

The article as a whole is largely disorganized, with information appearing under the wrong or unrelated section headers and such. If anyone has the time to do a major cleanup edit they are welcome to do so. I will try to lend some help when I can. VanishingUser 02:52, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

84.97.249.28 (talk) 09:48, 13 December 2007 (UTC)== Links to manufacturers ==

Why? — Pekinensis 14:46, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I actually think we need links to more manufacturers because there's a distinct difference between western and eastern soymilk/drink. Can someone look up some Asian manufacturers? Janet13 9 July 2005 05:59 (UTC)

I also question the usefulness of such a list. Even with the differences between western and eastern soy milk, how does a list serve anyone? If you go to a western market, you see the western brands. If you go to an asian market, you see the asian brands. That pretty much solves it for me. I'm going to remove the list -- revert if you really want it back. VanishingUser 02:45, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

The current page contains photos of particular brands of soy milk to illustrate the article. This is inappropriate. These pages should not promote, explicitly or implicitly, any brand, expecially since there are hundreds of thousands of brands out there (from milti-nationals to local producers).

[edit] History

Could someone add a history section? I think this is actually a really old drink instead of a modern health food industry invention, as many might be percieving. --69.212.101.139 29 June 2005 20:25 (UTC)

[edit] Taste

Article: Soy milk can be used as a replacement for cow milk in most types of recipes.

Well, most soy milks don't taste close to cow milk at all, so i would say in most cases, soy milk isn't a good substitute for taste. Compared even to low-fat cow milk, soy milk tastes watery and hollow - someone disagree? --Abdull 09:12, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

Only fat-free soymilk tastes watery. Regular soymilk can usually be used in recipes, unless you're using a lot, obviously. -QT314

Soy milk has a different pH than cow's milk, so the substitution in leavened baked goods is not straitforward. Taste otoh I think is very subjective. dikaiopolis 07:31, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] New picture

That picture looks really gross and yellowed. Surely there's a better image of soymilk out there than that!

I agree. Also, why is there a branded can in the picture with a link to the manufacturer? It looks like an advertisement to me! AgarrateCatalina. Jan. 8, 07

[edit] Health arguments

An anonymous poster recently added a large number of negative health arguments without a reference. Is it justifiable to remove these until some sort of factual backing is provided? Uriah923 20:34, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Reference re-added

A reference was removed without explanation. It has been re-added, as it was used to add content to the article on July 25, 2005. Per Wikipedia policy, a reference must be provided when information is "gleaned from an external souce." As that is the case here, to remove the reference would put the article in copyright violation. Uriah923 17:29, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

I should like to intoroduce the oposing view on Soy & Health as presented at the following link .... http://www.soyonlineservice.co.nz/

The page opens with the following....Italic text'"The Truth about Soy

Have you ever wondered about soy? It's promoted as the miracle food that will feed the world while at the same time prevent and cure all manner of diseases. But what if all you've read about soy is nothing but a multi-million dollar marketing strategy based on scanty facts, half-truths and lies?"......'

[edit] Value of ON content and quality of reference

The content added from the ON reference remains in this article, but the reference has been removed. This action is disputed and a conversation is ongoing here. Uriah923 06:21, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Taste and aftertaste

After drinking soy milk, I sometimes have an aftertaste which I can only describe as "grassy". I'm also pretty sure it aggravates my allergies, plugging up my nasal passageways. I can also feel my stomach becoming more acidic while it's in there. These are probably all side-effects of the vegetable nature of soy milk, which is not all good in all cases. Cow's milk, on the other hand, goes down very well for me, though I do feel guilty these days about how the milk is extracted from the poor cows. At any rate, I don't think it's a good substitute for cow's milk as far as chemical make-up is concerned, and my body can testify to that. Perhaps other people with similar reactions to soy milk can attest to this as well. --211.116.88.76 14:16, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

Or perhaps people with reactions to cow's milk or dairy products can attest to that. :-) -- 28 dec 2005

I drink soy milk and have not experienced the "grassy" taste you're talking about. Course, I get the vanilla flavor. Jwigton 04:54, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Flavoured Soy Milk

Article: In the United States, soy milk is commonly available in vanilla and chocolate flavors as well as its original unflavored form.

Just the United States?? In Australia it is available in many flavours, and surely many other countries besides.

I removed the nation-specific phrase altogether, because you can also find flavored soymilk in Asian countries or wherever else soymilk is sold. 67.169.183.167 03:04, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Protein?

"It naturally has about the same amount of protein as cow milk." -- Although it has about the same amount of protein as cow's milk, I assume that the proteins are not the same. Can anybody clarify this? -- 28 dec 2005

The proteins are definitely not considered the same. Soy protein and milk protein are made up of extremely different amino acids. That might lead some to argue that this article is biased a little in the sense that it is pro-soy milk. Unfortunately I can't seem to find reliable internet sources with the exact studies showing the results of people drinking soy versus cow milk, but at issue seems to be that people who drink soy have a greater incidence of mood imbalance, lower muscle mass, and higher estrogen production. -22 may 2006

These statements are completely untrue. The Proteins found in Soy Milk and Soy products are so close to Cows and other Bovines that people allergic to Milk Proteins are typically also allergic to Soy products. This even has a name (MSPI or BPI depending on the exact proteins you are allergic to). Google MSPI, Milk Soy Protein Intolerance and you will find plenty of references from Nutritionists and Doctors.

In fact, I greatly dis-agree with the statement "It is safe for people with lactose intolerance or milk allergy" in this article and wish it would be clarified as people have had many problems with their child due to this common mis-conception. --Jdarlingkc (talk) 16:00, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Invention of soy milk

"Soybean or "vegetable" milk is reported to have been developed and used in China by the philosopher Whi Nain Tze, who is credited also with the development of doufu or 'Tofu' in Japan." -- No Google hits for Whi Nain Tze. Liu An says, "Liu An (劉安, 179-122 BC) was an advisor to Emperor Wu of Han China and the inventor of tofu." More history info at http://www.soya.be/history-of-soy-milk.php

I believe that no matter the original development of vegetable milks, it was Dr Harry Miller, an Adventist missionary doctor in China, who tried to popularize and mass produce it as infant formula. I also think I read in a biography written for Adventist children (back when i was one, heh) that plaster of Paris (!) was one an additive. Mang 10:20, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

The first citation about Soy Milk coming from China leads to a company's page that does not explain how they got their sources. Chinese sources are of course also among the most unreliable at times do to nationalist agenda. Swatpig 00:18, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Somehow I don't think the People's Republic is going to begrudge you over bean juice. Here, it's your nationalist agenda that is showing. If you don't think the source is reliable, then find one that is. 67.169.183.167 03:14, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ecological Impact

I have removed the part about the ecological impact of soymilk because the link supplied WWF clearly states that "the main product is soy meal [...] much sought after as animal feed", so not for the production of soy milk (the paragraph seems to try to expose those soy milk drinking tree hugging hippies destroying the rainforest they love so much)

The reasoning seems off to me: "This however is not valid in many parts of the developing world where feed for cows and buffaloes is not cultivated separately but is often the by product of rice or other vegetable cultivation intended primarily for humans". This part suggests that you cant feed cows/buffaloes with soy by products, while rice and other vegetables is fine (And it also suggests that by products would be lost if you did not feed them to cows/buffaloes, but if you don't use them as animal food you will use them in cultivating other plants). So the claim that soy cultivation can be counterproductive compared to cow raisinig really needs to be backed up with some references. --Kiesa 10:09, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I moved the doubtful part here for discussion:

This however is not valid in many parts of the developing world where feed for cows and buffaloes is not cultivated separately but is often the by product of rice or other vegetable cultivation intended primarily for humans. In fact, excessive soy cultivation is often counterproductive in such countries.

--Kiesa 04:33, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Huainanzi

A few edits back, there was a sentance that refrenced this in the second paragraph that made sense (at least in form--I can't vouch for it being factual). Since then it's been moved around at random ending up all by itself as a link at the end of the paragraph. In previous versions it never was clear exactly what it's relationship to the history of soy milk was, really. I solved this problem by removing the refrence entirely. If anyone wants to put it back, go ahead but at least fit it in w/ the paragraph rather than just tacking it on the end.Frank 17:30, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] defatting unsourced

"Lower fat varieties of soy milk are often significantly lower in protein than cow's milk because the defatting process is not one of skimming risen cream, rather it involves adding water." Deleted for lack of source. Jclerman 10:04, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] debate over the use of infant formula

There's substantial debate in the medical community currently over whether soy-milk baby formula should be used, as it commonly is, as a substitute for infants who are allergic to cow's milk. There is evidence that soy protein is a moderately sensitizing protein, especially in young infants, and even more especially so in infants who have already shown signs of cow-milk-protein allergy (there is debate over why that would be). Some evidence suggests that using soy milk as a substitute in that case puts such infants at a much higher risk of developing soy allergy than normal. As a result, some organizations now recommend against the use of soy milk as a substitute for cow-milk-sensitive infants, but this recommendation is not universally agreed upon. This paper has some details. --Delirium 05:36, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Soy and Dementia

This is apparently a widespread debate. I have no idea either way, but I'm very surprised that potential health risks aren't really mentioned in thier own section in this article.

The article that you are referencing brings up the question but pretty much shoots it down also. Expect this to happen a lot. Most of the health "risks" are from unsubstantiated reports or studies, most likely funded by certain interests in the dairy industry (do you really believe that you need 2-3 servings of dairy every day, as the USDA food pyramid claims?). Always keep in mind that there are millions if not billions of dollars at stake annually for dairy producers and they will do whatever they can to discredit soymilk. As your article states, there's a rather big discrepancy between the claims that soy consumption leads to mental deterioration, when much more comprehensive studies have shown that Asians suffer from these problems less than Western peoples do. 67.169.183.167 12:33, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Add more detail to "Ecological Impact"

It says the "explosion of soybean cultivation" in Brazil caused losses of large tracts of forest lands, but it didn't say how or why. I want details. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.38.242.66 (talk • contribs)

[edit] {{citation needed}}

Section Origins states:

Soy milk originated in China

soymilk has a US patent around 1930. This would counterdict this information. --meatclerk 21:38, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Would it? Just because something is patented today doesn't mean it didn't exist yesterday. Or are you basing your statement on a Wikipedia-specific guideline? Paul Haymon 09:09, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Citation added. Soy milk, as well as its bi-product Doufu, appeared in China 2,000 years ago. In my opinion, a patent of less than one century is merely a modern stuff of making $$$. --supernorton 05:32, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Section Origins states:

Soy Milk comes from the depths of hell, where it squeezed from the bodies of vegetarians.

Errr...?

This is western arrogance again like when gunpowder, paper, compass and printing were invented 2,000 by the chinese the U.S. patents and steals other peoples inventions.Darth Anzeruthi (talk) 02:55, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Nope. See Hanlon's razor. —Viriditas | Talk 05:11, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Misleading statement

I edited this, removing the implication that "dou nai" is more common in the west:

In Western nations, soy milk is more commonly sold under the term Dòu nǎi (豆奶; lit. "bean milk") than dòu jiāng (豆漿), although the two terms are often used interchangeably.

In Western nations, soymilk is sold as "Soymilk" not as either of the Chinese phrases. And I've never heard any Chinese people refer to the product as "dou nai". Do a Google search for both phrases, and "dou nai" doesn't even return any relevant hits. 67.169.183.167 03:42, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

I can confirm that "豆奶" is indeed an alternative Chinese term for 豆漿. If you want some corroboration from Google search results, use "豆奶" instead of "dou nai". A Google search on "豆奶" yielded (approx.) 494,000 hits. A quick check of the first 50 hits confirmed that they (i.e. the first 50 hits) were all true hits. --72.78.237.89 07:01, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Just because a lot of people are saying something it doesn't make it right. They could be absolute idiots, right? 121.94.38.75 00:24, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

This statement is misleading: "Since soy doesn't contain galactose, a product of lactose breakdown, it can safely replace breast milk in children with Galactosemia." Soymilk is not a replacement for breast milk or infant formula. There are soy-based infant formulas (which was mentioned later in the article), however, an infant should not be fed Soymilk! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.164.132.133 (talk) 18:46, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Drinho spam?

Drinho is for some reason at the top of an otherwise alphabetized list of manufacturers, and a secondary picture features their product with the caption "A convenient pack" which isn't really relevant to the subject. 67.169.183.167 03:53, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Claims of negative health effects

I'd like to suggest a change to the point which begins with "Soy consumption has been linked to dementia and cognitive impairment in men." I feel that this wording does not reflect the cited study, which specifically comments on the effects of a phytoestrogen rich diet upon male rats. The linked source does not comment upon human males, as the current version would imply. So, unless there's any opposition--or a source that does address the effect of soy upon men--I'd like to remove the reference to men.

I also feel that the cited source does not support the claim that soy consumption has been linked to dementia, or if you apply a weak definition of dementia then it is insignificant to cite both dementia and cognitive impairment.

Given the controversy surrounding the subject, and that this is my first substantial edit, I'm proposing here the following version:

"Soy consumption has been linked to cognitive impairment in male rats. Although the cited studies are based on rats fed with concentrated phytoestrogens and not common soy beans, it is already well known that concentrated estrogens cause negative effects in males. The common amounts of phytoestrogens in soy beans are not to be compared to concentrated estrogen."

Would welcome suggestions.KGZotU (talk) 21:32, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Neutrality of health effects?

This article doesn't seem especially neutral particularly as regards the health impact. The phrasing of the article is obviously biased, with section titles "health benefits" vs. "claims of negative health effects". The health benefits seem a bit of a stretch, as it simply mentions several of the compounds in soy milk and assigns a blanket label of "healthy" to them, although the wikipedia pages for those compounds are much more cautious about describing their net health impact as positive or negative. In particular, lecithin and monounsaturated fats are not described as especially healthy, and casein's negative health impacts are highly debatable. As is mentioned above, the statement "It is safe for people with lactose intolerance or milk allergy" overreaches as simultaneous intolerance to soy and milk proteins is not uncommon (MSPI); while it is generally safe for lactose-intolerants, would MSPI fall under a milk allergy? 66.27.121.188 (talk) 13:47, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

I am certained that there are products which sell Soy Milk as an alternative to milk, but have no idea if this qualifies as Soy milk being a safe substitute of Milk. MythSearcher^talk 14:11, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

I just logged in to make this change, but first checked here to see if there was discussion about it. I agree with anonymous that prefixing the section with "claims" implies that the information below could be inaccurate. The fact is there are source studies that conclude negative effects, these are no "claims" anymore than the "claims of health benefits" above. Changing now.. Wikidan829 (talk) 07:40, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Name Change

Petition to change the name of this substance from soy milk to soy juice. To paraphrase Lewis Black, "if it doesn't come out of a tit then it isn't milk!"

Seriously, it's soy juice, live with it. -Inri

Technically, it is not squeezed out of soy beans and thus not juice. And Lewis Black is not an expert on the material, so it is out of the question to change the name after his joke comment. MythSearcher^talk 04:19, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] The Korea robber event

The quoted news cited that a Korea company claimed soy milk as an invention of Korea a few hundred years ago on their product sold in Japan, angered China since written record occurred 2000 years ago that soy milk is used in China. Along with a few other things stolen by Korea like Korea patterning Chinese characters and 端午節(dragon boat festival) as their own creation in a relatively recent time, making China officials stating North Korea as robbing historical festivals and inventions and creating hoaxes to confuse other countries about the origin of various things. Thus only stating China is accusing Korea is not faithful to the quote. The Japanese words there is the title of the news article, not a complete quote of the news. MythSearcher^talk 14:53, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Mythsearcher, I don't see anywhere in the cited article that "Korea" actually claims soy milk was invented by Korea. Accusation made by a Chinese official or Chinese internet users does not represent "Korea", and the article itself makes no confirmation whether "Korea" really did claim soy milk was invented by Korea. As for other issues regarding Chinese characters and duanwu festival, please take them to the relevant talk pages and don't bring it here where they are completely irrelevant. Thank you. Cydevil38 (talk) 02:13, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

The claim made was listed in the quote: 韓国は数百年前から家庭で豆乳を作っていた。韓国が豆乳の発源地. In which means Korea families made soy milk from a few hundred years ago. Korea is the origin of soy milk. If you say that a Korea soy milk company claim does not represent Korea, the sentence could be changed to A Korea food comapny claims soy milk being originated in Korea and advertised the claim in ~~14 countries including China,~~ Japan ~~and Germany~~, stating that Korea families had been producing it for a few hundred years, in which angered China and accuse Korea of stealing since soy milk had written record in China dated more than 2000 years old. MythSearcher^talk 06:24, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

MythSearcher, the only fact that the article confirms is that a Korean company advertised such claims in Japan. Can you confirm based on reliable source whether such claims were advertised in countries other than Japan by this company? Cydevil38 (talk) 07:11, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, got confused by the paragraph saying the company sold its products in 14 countries. I have stroke out the part saying the advertisement in other countries. MythSearcher^talk 08:29, 13 June 2008 (UTC)