Talk:Southern Italy

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[edit] The "least four" regions?

In what way are these regions the "least" of Italy? I think that should be clarified. -- Andrew Parodi 05:36, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I think you misunderstand what "at least" means. It is not saying the regions are "lesser" than other parts of Italy, of course not. I'd personally take offence to such a statement since my mom's family are Abruzzese. It is merely saying that the term "Mezzogiorno" definitely contains the four regions of Basilicata, Calabria, Campania and Puglia and, somewhat arguably, other regions like Sicily, Molise, etc. (although the large majority clearly consider the other regions part of the mezzogiorno). Hope this clarifies things, ciao. Epf 18:48, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Oh, thanks. I misread that. -- Andrew Parodi 23:17, 2 June 2006 (UTC)


You should back-up what you refer to as the 'Mezzogiorno Problem', whether it's something 'you're saying' or not. Sounds like an extended agenda tacked onto what is, ultimately, an article about an idiomatic term.

[edit] Further Reading

These books were listed as Amazon links. If they are useul, they can be reinstated using the the normal neutral citation mechanisms

  • Between Salt Water and Holy Water: A History of Southern Italy by Tommaso Astarita
  • The Italians by Luigi Barzini

[edit] error

ISTAT lists Sicily and Sardinia as Insular Italy.

[edit] i forget the name of this movie..

Its set in Southern Italy during world war two, about a young guy who falls in love with a girl from northern Italy. My teacher(who was ethnically Italian himself) in junior high showed us this movie along with "Life is Beautiful". My teacher was the first person to bring up this issue of the differences between the Italians in the north/south.

[edit] Mezzogiorno vs. Southern Italy

I think this article, as it stands today, confuses what the Mezzogiorno is... The Mezzogiorno, or il meridione as it is sometimes called, is synonymous with Southern Italy (thus including Sicily, Sardinia, Abruzzo, and Molise). It is a region roughly coextensive with the historic Kingdom of the Two Sicilies. The more restrictive definition in the article is unsourced and, I must admit, I never heard of it described in this way. It may have something to do with the administration of the Cassa per il Mezzogiorno implemented just after the second world war, but that is not what this article is about. Mariokempes 23:44, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

I've updated the article and removed reference to the "at least four" regions. The map should probably be updated as well. Mariokempes 17:09, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Done. Mariokempes 03:37, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Mezzogiorno, Southern Italy

Mezzogiorno is indeed synonymous with Meridioneor Southern Italy though Lazio's exclusion and Abruzzo's inclusion show tha something more than geography is at play. As Garabaldi used the term, the Mezzzogiorno encompassed South Central Italy, that portion of Italy south of Rome as well as Abruzzi, though all of Abruzzi's major cities lay to the north of Rome. But for his inclusion of southern Lazio, the boundaries of the Mezzogiorno would fit those of Spanish dominion. But there is disagreement among as to just what the Mezzogiorno consists of. [[1]] With the split of Abruzzi into two regions in the early 60s, the Italian census chose to describe Abruzzo (the northern portion of Abruzzi) as part of the Mezzogiorno, though in terms of latitude it is defintely not in Southern Italy. What Abruzzo shared with Southern Italy was poverty, neglect from central government, and the out migration of inhabitants. However, including Abruzzo in programs to relieve Southern Italy's poverty was economically advantageous to that region. Mapmakers such as Michelin include Tuscany, Umbria, Marche, Lazio, and Abruzzo in Central Italy. (See, for instance, Michelin Italy Central Map No. 430.) However, Istat lists Abruzzo as in Southern Italy and Lazio as in Central Italy though Abruzzo and Lazio are at comparable latitudes. This may stem from the fact that Lazio was part of the Papal States and Abruzzi was part of the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies. However, cultural prejudice also may play a role in what is and isn't included in the Mezzogiorno by ignoring both culture (the dialects or accents of much of Abruzzo are closer to Umbria and Rome than Naples) and geographical position.


Among other things, I removed the reference to the French word midi. The Italian can stand on its own. User:MGerety

I can live with the description as it stands now but, in spite of the name, the term Mezzogiorno never really fit the geographical description. It is irrelavant that Abruzzo is north of Rome- its history, culture and political position have made it part of the Mezzogiorno. There is no need to harp on its geographical location in the article. Nevertheless, this is really a moot point to a question that exists only so long as there are "three" Italys- North, Central and South. To many, there are only two- north and south... Then the question of division becomes whether to include Tuscany as north or south, and the term Mezzogiorno becomes irrelevant. Mariokempes 16:47, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Good. I believe it is a bit more complex than you think. Even Romans tend to think Rome is north of l'Aquila. Besides meaning the South, Mezzogiorno historically meant poverty -- though parts of the Mezzogiorno are now quite wealty (e.g. the Amalfi coast or L'Aquila). The term is fraught with all sorts of cultural biases. For instance the dialects or regional accents of Southern Lazio are closer to those of Naples than Rome, while those of the northern half of Abruzzo are of Umbrian and Tuscan origin. But Istat calls all of Lazio Central Italy and all of Abruzzo Southern Italy -- thus ignoring both geography and culture. (By the way Tuscans and Umbrians definitely view themselves as being part of Central Italy, not the North and definitely not the South.)

Peace. MGerety —Preceding unsigned comment added by MGerety (talk • contribs) 01:46, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it is far more complex- but I think we are saying the same thing, really. As for your comments about central Italy that is never clear. It really depends on the situation and context: Perugini and Romani often contrast themselves with the "north" (and thus align with the south when it comes to that aspect). Romanesco dialect, along with Tuscan or standard Italian, is closer to Neapolitan than to northern dialects. "Padania" is often used as a derogatory term by Romans and Sicilians alike. And, equally important, most northerners think of everthing south of Florence as "southern". I'm not trying to spark a north-south debate here (even though I think this is thankfully mellowing in recent years), but simply illustrate that Mezzogiorno=former Kingdom of Naples (and yes, former poverty) and south can mean different things depending on criteria (ISTAT, Italian perception, geography, etc.). In this article, it seems ISTAT's regional divisions are used, so south includes all of Abruzzo but none of Lazio (but we throw in Sicily because of historical/ cultural ties). I think all of this is explained, so it is safe to consider south=Mezzogiorno for the purposes of this article. Mariokempes 14:48, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Image

I notice my old pink map has been replaced. One benefit my map had was that it included the southern two parts of Lazio. I can try to either change the current map to include them, or change my older map to include the rest of Italy, which I presume was the cause for changing it. Thoughts?--Patrick 21:07, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

I replaced the map because it was misleading, implying that only the darker areas are usually part of the mezzogiorno (not true). The replacement map is accurate other than the historical inclusion of Lazio south of Rome (which is mentioned in the text). Mariokempes 22:29, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

So I was getting around to the map, and I had a second inquiry: were the two colors a problem? The text still discusses the provinces which are sometime, but not always, included, and I wanted to also show that in the map.--Patrick Ѻ 16:33, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
What I like about the current map is that it shows all of Italy and a reader gets a sense of the geographical extent. Also, it is standardized with all other regional maps of Italy. HAving said that, I have no problem with two colours- as long as teh map is clear and not misleading like your earlier map. Mariokempes 20:14, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Former ecclesiastical province?

"The name is also applied to a former ecclesiastical province of the Eastern Orthodox Church"... I cannot find support for this comment. Does anyone know if this is true or shall this phrase be removed? In the meantime, I will add a fact tag. Mariokempes 00:22, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Mafia?

I can't see anything about Mafia, although each italian knows that it is a typical and (theorically) exclusive Southern Italy problem. I'm wondering why. "Mafia" is in fact a sicilian term. The historical place of origin of Mafia is Sicily. The other italian "Mafias", as Camorra from Neaples or 'Ndrengheta from Calabria, are from southern Italy, too. So, on one hand Mafia is doubtless Southern, on the other hand it has no association with Northern Italy. This is a drastic difference beetwen North and South. I don't think we should leave Mafia out of this page only to not offend Southern Italians, even if the 90% of Italians immigrated in english-speaking countries (and reading this page), are from Southern Italy. (also because mafia is obviously not linked with southern people "tout-court", but only with criminals) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.25.66.5 (talk) 17:00, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Caro autore ignoto: agreed the "mafia" problem is a large problem in parts of southern Italy... and it IS already referred to in the article as "organized crime" where it appears under "History" and "North-South divide". There are several articles that stem from this to cover the mafia, 'ndrangheta, camorra, etc. and I don't think there is a need to elaborate on it here. Your comment about "has no association with Northern Italy" however, really makes me wonder how much you know about this problem. You delude yourself to think this is an exclusive problem to southern Italy! In fact, not only is the mafia alive and well in northern Italy, it is alive and well throughout much of the western world. Organized crime is no stranger to northern Italy... Shall we talk about the very serious drug/ prostitution rings in the Veneto? Did you forget "tangentopoli" was not centred in Rome but in Milan? Let's cut this damaging stereotyping and move on. Mariokempes 18:18, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Suditalia: Sicilia e Sardegna?

Sicily and Sardinia are more frequently referred to as 'the islands' and not Southern Italy. Actual Italians call this entire area "the Mezzogiorno" to some degree, but Sicilians and Sardinians gasp at the idea. Sardinia and Sicily are not southern anything. They're not part of the continental European mainland. They're free-standing islands, that were Sicilian and Sardinian long before Italian unification, and will likely always be Sicilian and Sardinian in the future (should Italy ever devolve).

Further, Sicily is the only region of Italy whose name is used as an adjective, since it's known officially as "La Regione Siciliana" for this reason alone. It's an autonomous region, and its name pays homage to the region and the people which are Sicilian first. It's similar to the "Repubblica Italiana." But no other region of Italy is officially named this way. All other regions of Italy are named "Regione Puglia", "Regione Campania", "Regione Lazio", "Regione Calabria" versus Pugliese, Campano, Laziale, Calabrese. In fact, the Sicilian Special Statute was written, and the Sicilian Region was created before Italy and the Italian Constitution after World War II. Sicily was the first regione freed by the Allies and was given its own special government to keep it from becoming independent, and therefore, controlled by the Mafia. The CIA didn't want this, so it gave Sicilians as much of their own power as was safe, but with Big Brother in Rome to watch over, as soon as the Allies freed were able to free Rome.

Sardinia, like Sicily and the border regions of northern Italy that were never ever quite Italian, also has a Special Statute or autonomy. In fact, Sardinia is officially known as "Regione Autonoma della Sardegna." It's not called "Regione Sardegna" it's "Regione della Sardegna" which pays homage to the fact that also Sardinia is an island regione with its own people, culture, and language. In fact, Sardinian is one of the official langagues in Sardinia now, with the same prestige and protection as Italian.

Both Sicily and Sardinia were always Sicily and Sardinia, and always will be. Whether they're part of Spain, Greece, the Arab Empire, France, or today Italy, these two island regions are free-standing. Even in Italy, they're officially known as the island regions. They're not even officially considered southern Italy by the Italian government!

Compare: http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italia_insulare (Sicily and Sardinia) with http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mezzogiorno (Abruzzo, Molise, Campania, Basilicata, Puglia, Calabria)

It doesn't make any sense for the English version of Wikipedia to do things on their own. If this is how Italy officially groups its regions, and if this is how the Italian Wikapedia is written, how can the English version play by its own rules. Where is the official documentation or sources that can be cited?

I'm not denying that some people refer to Sicily and Sardinia as "the South." But a Sicilian or Sardinian would never do this, they're always Sicilian or Sardinian first. That's just their nature due to reasons from geography to history to culture. Further, Sicilians and Sardinians refer to Italy as 'the continent', something of which they don't feel a part.

To prove that my argument is not pie in the sky, here's a contemporary source: il Sud e la Sicilia "the South and Sicily"

If it were the same thing, this political group wouldn't make the differentiation. I don't disagree that Sicily and Sardinia are different from southern Italy in terms of economic hardship, backwater isolationism, and some culture/history. But this is from a northern, elitist perspective, and it doesn't conform to the way in which Sicilians or Sardinians view themselves; or the way in which the national government organizes statistical information.

To conclude, I'd suggest following the official Italian government method of classifying regions. Further, I'd also suggest following the Italian wikipedia, for the purpose of remaining congruent. I can't see any reason why the English version of Wikipedia is doing its own thing, and without even citing resources as to why they're adding Sicily and Sardinia into this group. This is very dangerous for an encyclopedic entry. Please consider my argument. Regards / Ciao --Salvuzzo (talk) 21:55, 2 March 2008 (UTC)


Agree that Sardinia is not southern Italy, historically or currently. I disagree with you on Sicily though, despite there been a Sicilian independentist movement, the island has ancient historical ties with the southern mainland and has been described as part of the geographical region "Two Sicilies" since the time of the Aragons. - Gennarous (talk) 06:32, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
Also Mezzogiorno is not really a correct or acceptable term, since its a Garibaldian linked term for "kill and steal from people in areas where the Bourbons are supported". Rather than an actual geographical entity. - Gennarous (talk) 06:38, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Italian Regions According To Area, Culture, Politcs, Language Etc ...

The way the states are mentioned are wrong. There is only 2 Italy's which is divided between north and south, the central parts are also divided into north and south. Northern Italy Includes:

Aosta Valley Emilia-Romagna Friuli-Venezia Giulia Liguria Lombardy Piedmont Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol Veneto

Central Northern Italy (Which Are Also Included As Northern States):

Marches Tuscany Umbria

Central Southern Italy (Which Are Also Included As Southern States):

Abruzzo Lazio Molice

Southern Italy Includes:

Apulia Basilicata Calabria Campania Sardinia Sicily

North - 11 Regions South - 9 Regions

This is the correct way in seperating the regions according to area etc.

1. If you look on the map you will see that the half way point would be between Tuscany and Lazio. Therefore separating anything Tuscany and further north as north, and anything Lazio and further south as south.

2. Politically - The northern regions are more left leaning and the southern regions are more right leaning.

3. Language - All the northern regions have similar dialects, which is another reason why lazio should not be included as a northern/central state. Lazio have the dialects romanesco and ciociaria which is closest to Neapolitan dialect.

4. Culture - The culture of Lazio is very southern, and if u trace it back far enough you will notice the similarities between Romani and Neapolitani, similar language, similar people, culture etc

5. Kingdom Of 2 Sicily's - It is wrong to suggest that only those regions in the kingdom of the 2 Sicily's should be included as the south. The reason Lazio wasn't in that kingdom was because it was being controlled by the papal states and remained neutral as it held the nations capital.

If you were to go to Lazio or meet with people from that area you will find that culturally among other things they are southerners. To suggest that it is a northern/central state would offend many and is just plain incorrect.

What I'm asking is if this can be fixed and if the regions i listed in the category above can be in those sections. The states in the central part would also be included in either the north or south, as Italy is viewed as north and south rather than north central and south. If you can do this, as well as change the maps to highlight the correct area's within each category that would be much appreciated and you would be doing every Italian on here a huge favour.

Thanks :) Ciao —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dj Azzurri (talk • contribs) 05:57, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

In very simple terms you are correct, more or less, in that may people see Italy as North-South. In that scenario Rome is most definitely a "southern" city; however, where to draw the border is not so clear. Having said that, I completely disagree with that assessment:
  • ISTAT sees five regions, North-east; North-West; Central, South and Insular. Most scholars see three Italies- North, Central and South. That is how, generally, the WP articles are organized and how most reputable references are sourced.
  • The cultural influences (Greek, Byzantine, Arab, Norman) and history of southern Italy is essentially that of the Two Sicilies/ Kindom of Naples. This does not include the areas of the Papal States (which by the way included Romagna- a "northern" region). Please have a look at the history of Rome prior to unification- there is very little to support what you said.
  • This article is about the part of Italy synonymous with the term mezzogiorno- that does not include Rome or Lazio.
  • In terms of language, you are completely off mark. Tuscan is truly an intermediary between northern and southern dialects (see La Spezia-Rimini line) but is closer to Romanesco and Neapolitan than you state. Umbro is very close to Romanesco.
As a side bar, if you must split Italy in two rather than three, I would say Tuscany and Umbria are more south than north. The language, cuisine, general lifestyle, etc. has more in common with Lazio than Veneto. So, dear Dj Azzurri, even though your statement about Rome is correct, I'm afraid you are missing the big picture. Dionix (talk) 01:56, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
ciao dionix, i clearly understand what you have written but there is one thing that you have to understand. There was once a famous italian, and you do have his quote somewhere on the mezzogiorno page, and he said "Anything south of rome was classified as the mezzogiorno" now this is the person that came up with the term :the mezzogiorno" in the 1st place. Anything south of rome would have to include the provinces of Latina and Frosinone in the southern half of Lazio. The southern half of lazio has always been classified as belonging to the south as it was under the rule of the kingdom of the 2 sicilies. You have even stated that some classify the southern part of lazio to be included in the mezzogiorno, this is correct. My dads side of the family is from the southern part so i clearly no the difference between his family and others from the north which do include tuscany etc that has always been considered the north to everyday italians. My dads side is very southern and is very similar to napolitano's and abruzzese when it comes to culture, language etc. One other thing you have to understand is that Romanesco is not the only Roman dialect. Romanesco is a dialect of Rome and perhaps it may be close to umbro as u suggested but you have failed to mention the other dialect called "Ciociaria" this dialect here is only used in the southern part of Lazio in the provinces of frosinone and latina, and is very close to napolitano. With this seperate language of the south of lazio plus the culture differences of the south of lazio with the city of rome plus also the reference of anything under rome is mezzogiorno, and suggesting that many consider southern lazio to be mezzogiorno i think this should be changed. At least you can higlight the bottom half of Lazio in brown on the map as it was part of the kingdom of the 2 Sicilies and from what ive mentioned above and from the quote of the famous italian it is clearly part of the mezzogiorno, ask any italian from the south of lazio and he will tell u the same thing. I hope this makes sense what i wrote
thanks ciao —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dj Azzurri (talk • contribs) 11:45, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
Hello DJ. The article already states that some (including both of us, it seems) consider the southern part of Lazio as "mezzogiorno" (Latina, Gaeta, etc.- but not Rome itself). There is no dispute there, except that ISTAT classifies "southern Italy" without the region of Lazio as it is today (I guess we can thank Mussolini for that). This is all in the article already. Historically, southern Lazio was a part of the K of Naples- that is shown on the map in the history section. As for changing the main map- I'm not the author nor do I have the skills to do it. Perhaps someone else is willing to "hatch" it in? As for your statement that many consider Tuscany as "north"- again, this a common view which can be disputed based on language, culture, cuisine and history. In my mind, Tuscany is as removed from Lombardy as it is from Campania- so it can only be "central", along with (northern and central) Lazio, Marche and Umbria. There are truly at least three general parts to Italy, not two. Dionix (talk) 16:43, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Hello to everybody, it's the first time I send a comment to Wikipedia please forgive me if I did it the wrong way. I am italian (mother from Veneto father from Abruzzo) I like this "voice" very much but I think it could be better concerning one paragraph: Concerning the paragraph: "North-Sud Divide" I am astonished to discover that our South was a kind of Eden before the unification, yes it is written "according to some historians" but it is not reported what MOST of the historian said. The fact is that after the rise of "Lega Nord" (Italian secessionist party) some historians try to underline the "superiority" of the South before the unification in contrast with "Lega Nord" that used to promote the opposite (a rich North slowed by a poor south), personaly I believe the south was not as bad as the "unification propaganda" suggested but probably not that good either, as suggested in this paragraph, otherwise the big support given to Garibaldi by the southern population (expecially in Sicily) have no explanations. Thank you for reading ! Corrado PS Just for Mariokempes (nice nickname!) I agreed with you we must get rid of stereotypes but in my job I have to travel all over Italy (and Europe as well) and believe me Mafia is a real brake for the economy in south of Italy. We can ignore this if we want people to understand the reasons of poorness in this area. It is like discussing the problem of Palestinian without mention Israel because it could lead people in antisemitic discussions. Criminal organization like Mafia exist all over the world it is true (and in some country are even legal) but what happen in South Italy has nothing to do with "Tangentopoli" (which was "just" a corruption scandal/trial)or with prostitution ring in Veneto.It has to do with the everyday life and economy so big is the influence of this criminal organization. People that want to create their own business activity have to fight harder than in the rest of Italy/world and sometimes risk their own life if they don't want to mess with them.A lot of people give up or decide to emigrate. 83.181.168.90 (talk) 17:32, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

"and Abruzzo, which is sometimes considered central Italy" but Abruzzo IS central Italy! and also Sardinia (latu sensu = in the broadest sense).

--Antioco79 (talk) 16:37, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

And about Emilia-Romagna it must be said, Emilia is more North Italy instead Romagna + Bologna and its provincia is more Centre-North.

--Antioco79 (talk) 16:37, 26 May 2008 (UTC)