Talk:Solfège

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[edit] Missing solfege syllables

What are the syllables for augmented 3, diminished 4, dminished 1, and augmented 7? I guess you could use "De" and "Fe" for dim 1 and dim 4, respectively, but I've never heard of those. Do such things exist? -- Merphant

It has to do with the number of half steps between the scale degrees. For example, between "si" and "la" there is only one half step. Because there is only one half step between "mi" and "fa," there is no theoretical need for a raised 3 (likewise a lowered 4 or a lowered 1). If you find one, I would assume you're either in the middle of a modulation, in which case solfege is generally tossed, or in a less tonal piece, in which case, again, solfege is tossed. I'm sure there are exceptions here, but this will be generally true. -- GDPmumin

[edit] Diphthongs

Vocalists are often concerned with the proper singing of diphthongs, not only in singing text but also in sight reading/solfege situations. I would say that (especially depending on dialect) the pronunciation hints given in the chart are very conducive to unpleasant diphthongs if used as a reference.

Perhaps IPA or SAMPA pronunciation guides would be more appropriate? Ideas? -- TrbleClef 03:57, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Sol, Si, Sharp-Flat

We call the perfect fifth sol, not so and the major seventh si, not ti. Then, augmented fifth becomes sil and diminished fifth becomes sel. On some occasions, we even call the minor seventh si flat, the augmented fifth sol sharp, and we do similar thing to the other notes. -- ErikDT

[edit] Healing Codes frequencies

I took out the table "Solfeggio frequencies" table for the lack of explanation about its origin and the potential misunderstanding as to its meaning. I strongly feel that, if this belongs in Wikipedia at all, it should have its own article. I'm afraid that the "healing powers" aspect of the information leaves me reluctant to see it inline with more conventional writing. WikiWikiPhil 01:34, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

I made no mention to the Healing Frequences. The Solfeggio Frequences are true, regardless of "correlations" with ideas you disagree with. Until you can show that these frequencies are wrong, they should be left in. Michael.Pohoreski 01:15, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
I can show the frequencies are not musical. A perfect fifth should be in the ratio 2:3, but here Ut1 -> Sol1 is *1.87, and Ut2 -> Sol2 is *1.37. Could you cite a couple of sources to show the link with the rest of this article? WikiWikiPhil 01:07, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Schools that offer Solfege

I'm interested to continue learning Solfege,ut my question iswhich schools usually offer Solfege?


[edit] Ti - si?

"In Continental Europe and East Asia, si is the seventh major, instead of ti"

I don't know about other European countries but here in Hungary we call the seventh major ti. (And I think Hungary is defenitely part of Central Europe.) So the statement above is not true in this form. I recomend the following change:

"In many countries of Continental Europe and East Asia, si is the seventh major, instead of ti"

or if we know more about exactly how many countries are using ti and si maybe

"In most countries of Continental Europe and East Asia, si is the seventh major, instead of ti".
Do Hungarians use movable do or fixed do? Would you mind translating the Hungarian page on solfege and posting it somewhere? Perhaps at Users:Gheuf/sandbox/hungarian solfege or something like that? I'm trying to revamp the article to make it as inclusive as possible. Information on how solfege is done in different countries would be valuable.--24.199.120.71 23:50, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm Taiwanese and we use si instead of ti, as well as so instead of sol. Chenhsi (talk) 21:08, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Commercial Spam Link

I removed the "solfeggio miracle toothbrush" link. Commercial and not appropriate.
And I just removed it as well.

[edit] "Its equivalent since Early Modern English is sol-fa."

Can someone explain to me the meaning of this sentence? Robert K S 16:23, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

I have no idea.--24.199.120.71 23:46, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Major Revamping

I think this article could use some major revamping. I've posted a version of what I think it might look like at www.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Gheuf/sandbox/solfege. Let me know what you think. (The information on Tonic sol-fa would be moved to its own page, now at www.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Gheuf/sandbox/Tonic_sol-fa)--24.199.120.71 23:45, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

For the record (it's been a while now), I merged this and [Tonic Sol-fa] in mid-2005, however both articles have been expanded since then. WikiWikiPhil 21:05, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Solfege is not synonymous with solmisation

Solmisation is the singing of music naming the sounds. Solmisation is a very old strategy for memorising music. Its first documented used appears to be in ancient India (where the notes are named as sa, ri, ga, ma, pa, da, ni). Solfeggio (Italian), solfege (French), solfeo (Spanish) is solmisation using as note names the syllables derived from an Hymn to Saint John the Baptist (Sancte Ioannes) mainly by Guido D'Arezzo : Ut (changed for "Do" in Italy), Re, Mi, Fa, Sol, La, Si (the latter, added later, is an acronym of the hymn's name).

You're right that "solmization" is not/has not always been entirely synonymous with "solfege": but in contemporary use in the USA "solfege" tends to be used for "solmization" and "solmization" not at all. I am not sure that any distinction is maintained between the two. Your distinction seems to be that "solfege" is a TYPE of solmization: in particular, the solmization used in Europe. This is not the distinction that I have seen elsewhere. As it is, the article discusses some of these issues in its second section.--Gheuf 04:58, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
I took a stab at resolving this, let me know what you think (as if that ever needs an invitation on Wikipedia!). I also added solfeggio as a synonymn in the first sentence MrRK 20:33, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Citation needed?

Someone has appended "citation needed" to the remark in the introduction that in English-speaking countries, So and Ti are used for Sol and Si. I'm not clear on why this needs a citation: it's common knowledge. It appears in the famous "Do Re Mi" song by Rodgers and Hammerstein. Later on in the article, it says that Si was changed to Ti by Sarah Glover in the 19th century -- this is a much more specific claim that really could use a citation: and yet no "citation needed" has been added here. I think the "citation needed" should be taken away from the general common knowledge in the first paragraph, and put onto the specific remark about Sarah Glover later on. --Gheuf 04:56, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Oh, that was me. I missed your comment here, but I pretty much did what you recommended already. Please feel free to correct as needed. You may also want to replace "Sol (or So)" with "So (or Sol)" in the intro. — Sebastian 01:07, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sol-fa redirect

Why does "Sol-fa" redirect here? I'm looking for an album by a Japanese band. 77.97.230.248 14:42, 8 April 2007 (UTC)DanZieBoy

Does the name of the album also happen to be "Sol-fa"? I'm not sure there's any article about it.--Gheuf 04:42, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sol, not So

References I have checked, including < http://www.m-w.com >, say that Sol is (by far) the preferred form.

If someone is going to revert the first paragraph to the one using So instead of Sol, can you please say what is the basis for your claim (preferably including a respectable reference)? Daqu 23:04, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Neither "so" nor "sol" is "preferred". The different forms belong to two different pedagogical traditions. "Sol" is the original form of the word and is used in France and Italy as the word for "G"; it is also used in other places that have adopted the pedagogical methods of solfege used there (including some American conservatories). "So" is the form used in English-speaking countries to refer to the fifth degree of the major scale, as well as in other places that have adopted pedagogical methods of solfege used in England (e.g., Hungary, and to some extent Italy).
This article has to include both since its purpose is to explain what solfege is, not to advocate this or that approach to it. It was thought preferable to give the usual English forms first, even though they are not the original forms, because the article is written in English; the Continental forms are given in parentheses and explained more fully in the rest of the article. Since both systems of nomenclature are in widespread use, the necessity of giving pride of place to only one of them must lead to a some what arbitrary decision. The present solution has the merit of avoiding some absurdity such as "The syllables used for this are Do, Re, Mi, Fa, Sol, La and Si (though "So" and "Ti" are used in English)". Used in English... as opposed to what language? Since the article is in English, it seems less awkward simply to put the English names first.

--Gheuf 18:30, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

I'd like to see a cite for "So" in English. I've never seen it spelled other than "Sol," nor has my wife, who studied solfege in Boston in the 1950's, and continues to be an active musician... __Just plain Bill 20:58, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

I was curious about sol v. so and ti v. si (since I learned from the Sound of Music song), so I did a semi-scientific study using Google searches (of the entire do...si/ti sequence). Results:

  • sol & si: 282,000
  • so & ti: 24,500
  • sol & ti: 4,900
  • so & si: 540

So it seems that sol & si are (by wide margin) the preferred terms, at least on the Internet. JimTheFrog 09:48, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Dunno what searches you used, but these are my results:
"do re mi fa so la ti" 34400 [1] [24000]
"do re mi fa sol la ti" 14200 [2] [9560]
"do re me fa so la ti" 2890 [3] [2170]
"do re mi fa so la si" 965 [4] [1430]
"do re mi fa sol la si" 356000 [5] [934]
"do re me fa so la te" 808 [6] [707]
"do re mi fa so la te" 921 [7] [594]
"do re me fa sol la ti" 1300 [8] [503]
"do re me fa so la si" 593 [9] [331]
"do re me fa sol la si" 442 [10] [276]
"do re me fa sol la te" 159 [11] [123]
"do re mi fa sol la te" 344 [12] [96]
The first number is the raw figure from the linked queryl; the bracketed figure is when I restricted to English language results (I can't find a Google-parameter for that).
I didn't check variants fah, lah, ray, doh.
Re sources:
Concise Oxford: soh, also so or sol, te (N.Amer ti) alteration of obsolete si
American Heritage: sol, also so, ti (also lists si, but not te)
Merriam-Webster Collegiate: sol, also so, ti (also lists si, not te)
jnestorius(talk) 12:52, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
Having also studied music my entire life, I have never encountered "so" rather than "sol" in professional contexts.
It seems almost obvious that "so" derives from mis-hearing the enunciated scale portion ". . . sol la . . .", thinking there is only one "L" where there are really two.Daqu (talk) 04:53, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Geographical range of moveable do

The article says moveable do is not generally used in Continental Europe. It is exclusively used in Hungary instead of the "fixed do" system, and unless I'm much mistaken, also in many other countries with significant German musical influence (which means much of Central Europe).

In Russia, on the other hand, the fixed do is definitely used, but I'm not sure whether alternatively or exclusively. 84.2.212.45 (talk) 15:06, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Origin of symbols

I would like to add the following to this section. Please read the source and let me know if you have comments, questions.OpTioNiGhT (talk) 04:39, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
French scholars Laborde and Villoteau suggest that Guido of Arezzo was himself influenced by Muslim musical notation.[1] (http://www.muslimheritage.com/uploads/Music2.pdf)

Table showing similarity between musical notes and the Arabic alphabet.[2]
Arabic Alphabet mi fa sad la sin dal ra
Musical Notes mi fa sol la si do re