Talk:Sojourner Truth

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Contents

[edit] excessive/unnecessary quotes

Do we really need quotes around every occurence of "sold," "own," and "ownership" in the "Early Years" section? They're incredibly distracting. I assume whoever put those there did so to imply that no human being can ever truly be sold, but this is in violation of NPOV. The fact is, slavery was legal at the time, so Sojourner Truth was not sort-of-kind-of sold, she was actually sold. Besides, have you ever seen a translation of the bible that said 'And Joseph's brothers "sold" him into slavery for thirteen pieces of silver?' I'd change it myself, but the page appears to be protected. -Misfit 18:35, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. The quotation marks are distracting and unnecessary, and do indeed violate NPOV. I've made the necessary adjustments. Gitman00 21:35, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Completeness criticism

OKAY SOJOURNER TRUTH WAS A SLAVE SO WHY DONT WE HAVE AS MUCH INFORMATION ON HER????????? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 209.214.53.107 (talk • contribs) 21:21, 17 February 2004 (UTC)

Wikipedia is entirely community-edited. I presume that there's not much information here simply because the people who have visited this page so far haven't had a lot of information handy to add to it. If suck yourself you know more about her and would like to see it here, you can add it yourself - though I suggest you take the caps lock key off first. Bryan 02:23, 18 Feb 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Speech controversy

Sojourner Truth's famous speech at the Akron Ohio never happened. A white women's rights activist named Frances Dana Gage wrote the "Ar'n't I a Woman?" speech. The convention in Akron actually never even happened, it was entirely fictionalized by Gage. User: THX-1138

It's odd to me that so many people make this argument and have absolutely nothing to back it up. I've never read or heard anything other than that Sojourner Truth did not give the "Ain't I a Woman" speech, but I am willing to learn. If you have some actual evidence or anything, let's see it.Baronsabato 07:59, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

For your info stop being ignorant; she wrote Ain't I a woman. Give me some proof that she did'nt —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.182.107.195 (talk • contribs) 01:53, 16 January 2008

This is discussed further down in more detail - Epousesquecido (talk) 14:06, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

I believe the idea that Sojourner Truth didn't give the speech is a minority opinion and definitely not settled fact. My wife has a copy of the Summit Beacon newspaper article written about the speech and discussing the conference, so it did happen and Sojourner Truth was given credit for the speech very soon after it was given. I'm no expert, so I didn't change the article, but I think it needs attending to by someone who's knowledgable. Catbar (Brian Rock) 01:21, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

I do believe the conference happened and theat Sojourner Truth spoke, but based on another discussion I've had with my wife, I'm not certain about Sojourner Truth's role in it, so I'm withdrawing my disputed notice. Catbar (Brian Rock) 05:45, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

I was just thinking that perhaps at least the article should not dinstinctly say that she did NOT speak, but at least say that it is disputed and leave it at that.

Agreed 67.86.117.111 01:57, 5 December 2005 (UTC)zcart

[edit] Completeness criticism continued

Whats funny about this article on Sojourner Truth is the complete lack of history. There is nothing about the Kingdom of Matthias, which greatly influenced her, and of course brought her to change her name to Sojourner Truth. That in itself is a great piece of history to simply ignore.

If you have more information, edit the article to include it! Help make it better. Edit away! Cabbers 23:40, 10 April 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Comments about areas of Sojourner's concern

Truth ?

In the definition of Truth we often find a reference to Sojourner Truth, a political acitivist described as follows:

Truth, Sojourner. 1797?-1883. American abolitionist and feminist. Born into slavery, she escaped in 1827 and became a leading preacher against slavery and for the rights of women.

If you examine her bio, it is odd that as a black slave she was not concerned about the rights of black men, don't you think ? An obvious 'half-truth' ignoring that slavery attacked the rights of black men as well and not women in general.

--Caesarjbsquitti 15:02, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

How do you derive this interpretation from "a leading preacher against slavery AND for the rights of women"? If she was an abolitionist, she was against slavery. Period. If she was a feminist, she was for the rights of women. The two are separate; Sojourner Truth was both an abolitionist, against slavery, and for the rights of women, black and white. You should really try and read more carefully rather than jump to conclusions.Baronsabato 07:59, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
Actually, the two are not separate. Sojourner Truth was a Black woman and a slave, she experienced white supremacy, slavery, and patriarchy simultaneously, and she fought them simultaneously. For her, there was no separation. And yes Caesarjbsquitti, slavery as a system did attack Black women as women. Rape and forced procreation were key components of slavery, as any serious study of the institution will show. That doesn't mean she didn't care about the human rights of Black men. To suggest that she dismissed Black men's liberation is absurd and fallacious.--Pinko1977 23:42, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Removal of uncited material

“In 2004, renowned author Bennett Golder wrote "The Truth About Sojourner Truth" a biographical account about the lies surrounding the life of Sojourner Truth.”

I can't find any reference to this on google so I assume it's not true. I'm removing it, if someone wants to revert, provide a reference 62.231.44.16 19:55, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cultural references, modern references

I see my removal of most of the Modern references section was reverted, twice. My reversion of the change was inadvertant as I have been heavily editing this article and did not see the change by someone else. I have restored the removed material but changed the heading and added one item, and plan to add one for her US postal commemorative stamp. However I do not feel this material is truly relevant to the main theme of the article and shows WP:POV as it is not balanced. Trivia sections are not considered valuable by all editors. If we must have one, additional references should be found to balance these somewhat biased ones. Comments? Epousesquecido 13:19, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I know that you are a tiring contributor, Epousesqucido, but please adheare to the 3RR. Please do not add content to WP, and than delete it. If you do look at the history of that page, you will see that 90% of the edits were made by you. This shouldn't happen, and you should stay away from making so many edits in such a short period of time, as it ties up WP's servers. Kaspazes talk 13:26, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
This article, on a very important person from US history, was a mess, and sadly neglected when I started. I took it on myself to improve it, section by section, which required a complete rewrite of most sections, and I referenced each section as I went. My area of interest in the short time I've been here is historical women and this is not the first article I've been the sole or nearly sole contributor for, while I was working on it. I do not agree that many small changes are necessarily so ineffiecient that they should be avoided, it is how many people edit. I guess I can't believe that you're criticizing me for too much editing in a short time.
Again, my reversion of your reversion of my removal was NOT deliberate, it was inadvertant, and your claiming it was deliberate is not assuming good faith. My last change, which you reverted again, restored all the material and added an additional cultural item. But you reverted it. That in itself may be a 3RR violation, you know.
Now though, I am here to discuss this change, so let's discuss it. The article still needs more work but till we gain consensus on how to proceed, I will confine my edits to other sections of it, or to other articles. The references in particular still need cleaning (when I arrived it had an unsourced tag, now it has many references but we are not done). So then... why should the change I suggest to this section not be made? I do appreciate your concern, and would appreciate any constructive advice on content that you can give. Epousesquecido 13:36, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
I plan to add additional cultural references to improve the neutrality of the article, which was my intent from the beginning. Sorry for the confusion. Epousesquecido 13:52, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

I have added additional cultural references to the article, but I question the importance of this one reference -- (1975 -- Peter Singer, a philosopher uses Truth's quotes in his book "Animal Liberation".)-- I wonder if this is relevant to the article. And should every book that has a Sojourner Truth quote be added to the list? Epousesquecido 05:06, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] TOC

I think this article needs a table of contents and I think the removal of it should be restored. I will not restore it while in an apparent edit war though. Epousesquecido 13:46, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

The table of contents has been restored Epousesquecido 05:10, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] None

I need heip. Black history month is domed and I am too!

I need more info about her.

HELP

[edit] Swartekill -- Place of birth

Swartekill is currently Wikilinked to a non-existing article "Hurley, Ulster County, New York". It seems there are two Hurleys in Ulster County, New York, because there is a disabiguation page. One Hurley is a town and the other is a hamlet.

But I don't think Swartekill is present-day Hurley at all. According to this site, "[Her parents'] owner, Johannes Hardenbergh had land in the Swartekill area, (now known as Rifton) in what was then the Town of Hurley." The Town of Hurley, according to its article, "was first settled around 1662 by directive of Peter Stuyvesant" and "[p]arts of Hurley have been used to form the Towns of New Paltz (1809), Esopus (1818), Olive (1823), Rosendale (1844), and Woodstock (1853)."

It sounds to me like Swartekill is present-day Rifton, and I'll change the Wikilink accordingly. — Malik Shabazz | Talk 22:52, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

I found another description here of Swartekill which helps confirm the location: "The Hardenbergh estate was in a hilly area called by the Dutch name Swartekill (now just north of Rifton), part of the Town of Hurley. It was within sight of the Catskill Mountains and near two small rivers, the Swartekill and the Wallkill River, which spilled into the larger Rondout Creek about six miles before it flowed into the Hudson River." - Epousesquecido (talk) 13:27, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
Sounds interesting where is that from? Maybe wikipedia needs a stub article for the now nonexistent place, and the writer could cite that information? ++Lar: t/c 19:46, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Saints banner and category

Based on this individual being included in the Calendar of saints (Episcopal Church in the United States of America), I am adding the Category:Anglican saints and the Saints WikiProject banner to this article. I am awaiting reliable sources which can be used to add the content to the article. John Carter 19:27, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Vandalism?

I noticed a recent edit removed much of the current article, and replaced it with information copied and pasted directly from [1] without citations or anything else. I reverted the edit. Should I have did that? —Preceding unsigned comment added by ThreeDee912 (talk • contribs) 12:15, 15 August 2007

Yes, thank you for noticing the vandalism and for correcting it. (Please remember to sign your name) - Epousesquecido 20:17, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
Indeed, thanks for the fixes. I signed your post for you, 3d, with the magic {{unsigned2}} template. ++Lar: t/c 03:52, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Kingdom of Mattias

I removed the unsourced sentence in the lead about her being a member of this cult. Some sources say she was only an employee, and in any case it's not significant enough for the lead, it's dealt with later in the article. - Epousesquecido 04:52, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Scope of Inclusion

I'm not going to change it myself, but I do question if the entire text of Truth's speech at Akron is entirely necessary to the article. Yes, it's important, but does it really belong in an encyclopedia article or a brief biography? I feel that linking it in one of the sections at the end would be sufficient. Twilytgardnfaery 14:25, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Frances Gage?

There's a redlink in the article to Frances Gage. I'm not sure who that is — is it an error for Matilda Joslyn Gage? She certainly moved in the same circles as Sojourner Truth. I don't know enough about Sojourner Truth to know for certain — if someone does know, please correct the link. Thanks. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 07:47, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Frances Gage is correct, just needed a redirect. - Epousesquecido 13:06, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Date of move to NYC

I'm new to posting here so please forgive me if this appears incorrect or crude. I'm not a Truth scholar, but I noticed that under the Freedom section the following appears: "In 1845 she moved with her son Peter to New York City, where she worked as a housekeeper for Elijah Pierson, a Christian Evangelist." I haven't the time at the moment to determine the correct date, but I think it must have been much earlier, since she started preaching and changed her name in 1843, which was after many years of working as a housekeeper in NYC. Perhaps someone knowledgeable would care to change this? MKGrant 22:57, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

You are correct, the date was wrong. Thank you for pointing it out. - Epousesquecido 02:53, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Revert of speech related material

I've reverted this change: [2] as it is a major change in the article made without seeking prior consensus, and the material added is poorly formatted, self referential, and not written in the encyclopedic style. I'd suggest that this matter be discussed here if necessary before the change is added back. Controversy about the provenance of the speech can certainly be included in the article if properly sourced and organized, and the article already does mention that the commonly accepted text may not be the original. ++Lar: t/c 07:30, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Correction to "Ain't I a Woman" subheading requested.

"Both Carleton Mabee and Nell Painter have demonstrated that twelve years after the 1851 Akron, Ohio, Woman's Rights meeting, Frances Dana Gage, and not Sojourner Truth, wrote the famous "Ar'n't I a Woman?" speech. According to Painter, Gage, the white presiding officer at the meeting, deliberately set her sights on writing a more engaging account of Truth than Harriet Beecher Stowe, who in 1863 captured the nation's attention by romantically characterizing Truth as the "Libyan Sibyl." Gage, thinking herself a more talented writer than Stowe, sought to shape popular perceptions of Truth. She thus fictionalized the Akron convention, a convention electrified as much by Truth's presence as by her speech. Placing Truth at the center, Gage substantially embellished and dramatized her remarks. We know enough about Truth to celebrate her on her triumph over physical and sexual abuse, her religious commitment, and her fight for her children. Even so, it is Gage's invention that black and white Americans cling to. We have the history but much prefer the myth - the idea that a strong powerful black woman, in defiance of vehement opposition, and by sheer force of character, overcame illiteracy and mesmerized many a hostile audience with a wisdom that defied the logic of America's racists and sexists. According to Painter, in embracing Gage's account, we have shown how much more we need the symbolic Sojourner Truth - the strong black woman triumphing against the odds - than the real one, whose struggles were heroic but hardly mythic."


-- White, Deborah Gray. Ar'n't I a Woman? Female Slaves in the Plantation South. Revised Edition. New York: W.W. Norton & Co., 1985. Quote from pg. 11. Dr. White is professor of black history at Rutgers University.

Sojourner Truth did give a speech at the Akron convention but it was not the "Ain't I a Woman?" speech and it was far less dramatic than has been popularly recounted. News reporters at the time recorded the speech as she actually spoke it. When Gage sat down with Stanton and Anthony to write the history of the Suffrage movement,1 she rewrote Truth's speech in an effort to more obviously link the condition of slaves with the condition of women. Recently Dr. Nell Painter of Princeton University and Dr. Carleton Mabee of the State University of New York College independently refuted and reattributed the "Ain't I a Woman?" speech to Gage.

In the "Ain't I a Woman?" section, no record is made of the dispute surrounding this speech. I attempted to edit the Wikipedia page to show both the true speech and the fictionalized one, because I think both are important to the study of authentic US history, but the page was reverted. Because I am new to editing Wikipedia and do not necessarily understand the proper conventions, I respectfully ask a more Wiki-wise editor make the correction for me. The correct speech can be found behind the link posted above; alternately I can find it on microfilm, whichever works best.

1Elizabeth Cady Stanton, Susan B. Anthony, and Matilda J. Gage, eds., History of Woman Suffrage, vol. I (1881; reprint, New York: Arno Press, 1969), pp. 114-17

Sandarmoir (talk) 05:37, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia already has an article devoted to the speech Ain't I a Woman?. It explains how the speech was a recorded recollection by Frances Gage. However, I do think that article is missing some important dates. - Epousesquecido (talk) 13:32, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
I did the revert, Sandarmoir as the material at that time was not in my view yet suitable for inclusion in this article. The material you've presented here now is, I think, closer to the format that material in articles sholud be in, with better cites, than what I reverted, and would certainly be something that should be considered for inclusion in the speech article, Ain't I a Woman?. If I may suggest, you may want to raise the issue on the talk page there. Thanks for taking another cut at this. (the speech itself, if not copyrighted, and I'd expect it is not, might well be a good thing to preserve at Wikisource) ++Lar: t/c 20:17, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
Thanks; the Talk Page on that speech does mention quite unequivocably that Wikipedia is using the wrong speech. However, the corrections have not been made to the actual article. I am not sure how to go about preserving anything at Wikisource; I'm not even really sure what that is. I'll look it up. Regardless, because this page quotes the speech something should be included in this page to indicate that the accuracy of the speech is under debate. Sandarmoir 19:14, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
I don't understand your issue, in the Ain't I a Woman? article there are two versions of the speech, neither claim to be her exact words. Her exact speech was never written down at the time. The Frances Gage version is considered to be the most historically accurate. Have you found a better version? The link you give uses the Frances Gage speech as its version. - Epousesquecido 20:35, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
Upon further reading, I saw the recorded version from the June 21, 1851, Anti-Slavery Bugle issue. I added it to the Ain't I a Woman? article. - Epousesquecido 21:28, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not using the wrong speech. As I stated on the Ain't I a Woman? talk page, Truth's speech was not written down or recorded at the time and all accounts are recollections written down by different people at different times with different agendas. The speech you refer to is not necessarily any more correct then the speech recorded by Gage. - Epousesquecido 02:51, 3 December 2007 (UTC)