User:Sm8900/Archive3

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[edit] Deletions, deletions

Hi Steve. I made a report at WP:ANI about the mass deletions of material at the Palestinian people page. Thought you might want to check it out. Tiamat 19:13, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] irony

Yes, I am American too. And I love the irony when it is so deep, juicy, and good that one falls in and needs hip boots to wade out of the crap! :) --Timeshifter 06:47, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Canaanite civilization material

Steve -- Hi. Thanks for you kind words. You asked Tiamut to comment on "a compromise on the table right now." While I'm not exactly sure what you have in mind, I think your q is helpful and you might pursue that with her directly. However, assuming that she deserves a chance to step away for some time, are you willing to work on -- edit, implement -- the compromise? Well, presumably a compromise that you can live with? BTW, if you look at her and my talk pages, you may get a sense already of her level of agreement/reservations. Regards. HG | Talk 16:52, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes, i definitely am willing to do so. thanks so much for asking. however, I am not the main party to this, so I would hope she would still be free to come back later and ask for more. The fact is, i might even agree to things which she would probably disagree with, since we do not have the same approach to this whole matter. How does that sound? --Steve, Sm8900 17:18, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Star Trek music

Hi Steve, please note that I just nominated the redirect Classical Music in Star Trek for deletion. I think the category is bound to be deleted, following precedents and consensus that TV series are not defining categories for actors or any other people associated with them. Lists are the way to go, e.g. List of Star Trek production staff which I finished yesterday.

Can you trace the other articles that used to be in Category:Star Trek music? I know I had put some in there myself! - Fayenatic london (talk) 17:48, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

err, thanks for the note. i do appreciate it. however, how do I trace articles in a category which no longer exists? :-) Anyway, i think most of them were moved to the soundtracks category. so I do have those in an article. --Steve, Sm8900 18:22, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
I half hoped you might have made a note of them somewhere. Without that, you can look at the page history of one that you know about, then look for other contribs by the same editor who changed the history around the same date & time. In this case, I couldn't find any that way. I think perhaps the other articles have all been deleted, including I Hate You (from the fourth film). There was another one about a special instrument that was constructed to make a special sound, but I can't remember its name at all. As for those that are left, have you made an article yet (not counting the category)? - Fayenatic london (talk) 22:21, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
I did make this page: User:Sm8900/Trek composers. By the way, thanks for at least trying to find or preserve those articles. people who delete good articles on other people's hobbies/interests should be throttled. :-) --Steve, Sm8900 13:34, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
Ah, well done. I've found what I was looking for and added them to your sub-page; hope that's OK by you. - Fayenatic london (talk) 15:50, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
rhat's excellent. please do that as much as you want, and on any topics in addition to this one. the more information we have, the better. it's good to have your help on this in this way. thanks. --Steve, Sm8900 15:53, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
Great, thanks. Do you prefer the table to the list? Do dive in and add info if you have time; you'll see that I found several more composers listed at Memory Alpha, and most already have articles here too. - Fayenatic london (talk) 20:01, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
Fayenatic, my old friend. Fayenatic...so good to see you. If you only knew where I've been. I have been in a conflict which will probably fragment half the galaxy and edit-block the other half, You have no idea ot the battle which is breaking out over our heads. What am I talking about? I'm only half kidding. Go take a look at these articles to see what i mean: Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Allegations of apartheid/Workshop, Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Allegations of apartheid
Anyway, as far as your comment, I sure appreciate all your help. i'll try to pitch in, but as you'll see, most of our forces are currently pinned down. :-) See you. --Steve, Sm8900 20:06, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
I see what you mean... and will keep my opinions to myself! Nearly done assimilating the MemoryAlpha list. I propose to actually move the page from your user space into article space when it's done.
Did you have time to eat today? Look after yourself! Best, - Fayenatic london (talk) 22:41, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
Thanks! you're a real trooper. If I get a starship, you'll be my first choice to be Chief of Ops! :-) thanks for your help. see you. --Steve, Sm8900 13:23, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Arbitration

If you think the Arbitration committee or some other body should judge content disputes, the correct place to raise the issue would be the Village Pump, or perhaps the en-wiki mailing list (which I'm told is the Jimbo-approved official off-wiki method for discussing policy). Please don't continue to make comments in the case just to prove a point. Thanks. Thatcher131 22:31, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Although I am sure you will have seen it, please note that you have been named as a subject of a proposed remedy on the proposed decision page of the arbitration. You may comment on the evidence page, the workshop, or the proposed decision talkpage. Newyorkbrad 11:00, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] saving material

[edit] 21st Century Jewish Autonomous Oblast

- In 2004 the Regional Government of the Jewish Autonomous Oblast of Russia announced that Chief Rabbi of Russia Berel Lazar has agreed to take part in the 70th anniversery celebration for the Jewish Autonomous Oblast. Rabbi Lazar and Avraham Berkowitz, the Executive Director of the Federation of Jewish Communities CIS will lead a delegation to Birobidjan for the event. Rabbi Mordechai Scheiner, the Chief Rabbi of Birobidjan and Chabad Lubavitch representative to the region, said "Today one can enjoy the benefits of the Yiddish culture and not be afraid to return to their Jewish traditions. Its safe without any Anti-Semitism and we plan to open the first Jewish day school here". It is estimated that at least 3,000 Jews live today in the city. Mordechai Scheiner, an Israeli father of six, has been the rabbi in Birobidzhan for the last five years. The town's synagogue opened in 2004.[1] The Federation of Jewish Communities of Russia estimates the number of Jews in Russia at about 1 million, or 0.7 percent of the country's 143 million population. Sheiner says there are 4,000 Jews in Birobidzhan -- just over 5 percent of the town's 75,000 population. [2]

- The Birobidzhan Jewish National University works in cooperation with the local jewish community of Birobidzhan. The university is unique in the Russian Far East. The basis of the training course is study of the Hebrew language, history and classic Jewish texts. [3] In recent years, the Jewish Autonomous Oblast has grown interested in its Jewish roots. Students study Hebrew and Yiddish at a Jewish school and Birobidzhan Jewish National University. In 1989, the Jewish center founded its Sunday school, where children study Yiddish, learn folk Jewish dance, and learn about the history of Israel. The Israeli government helps fund the program. [4]

[edit] Arbitration case status

Responding to your question on my talkpage, the case is definitely still open and the arbitrators remain in the process of voting. There has been no motion to dismiss, so a decision on the merits of the case will eventually emerge. Beyond that and in terms of timing, I'm afraid I don't have any more information than is publicly available on the proposed decision page itself. I have no way of knowing whether there is intensive discussion underway on the arbitrators' private mailing list, or whether arbitrators are still reviewing evidence, or whether they are backlogged on other cases or away on summer vacations. A post of your query to the proposed decision talkpage might (or might not) elicit a response from one of the arbitrators. Sorry I can't be more helpful with this. Regards, Newyorkbrad 21:09, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Ok, thanks. that is fairly helpful actually, so thanks. --Steve, Sm8900 13:07, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Your confidence

... in me, though overstated, is greatly appreciated. Anyway, one clarification, Steve. You said "I feel that currently we are responding to a specific tangible effort by HG to resolve things. he is someone with much crdibility in resolving and handling debates and contention. So I would suggest that we continue this debate, ..." As you will notice in the same section, I am suggesting that we work on recording a synthesis of the arguments, not to keep polling and voting. Thanks again! HG | Talk 16:27, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

ok, that sounds good. I will start trying to reflect that distinction in any future posts, discussions, etc. thanks very much for your message, and for all your great efforts. your efforts are very helpful. thanks. --Steve, Sm8900 16:30, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Hi again. Per your suggestion, I tried to give facilitating advice on Talk:Battle of Jenin. Let me also take the liberty of pressing you on the way you chatted in that section. When you are arguing against somebody, esp if you're perceived to be on opposing sides, then I'd suggest keeping your tone and language more neutral, less breezy or sarcastic or personal. (E.g., Ummm, not sure how to break this to you... this is baloney. PalestineRemembered, are you not noticing... Have you read your own quotes? ... dude, you;re exhausting me. try reading your own quotes and then we can talk.) Please accept this as a friendly prod, recognizing your willingness to engage in such difficult topics. All the best, HG | Talk 19:20, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Hi. you're right. Appreciate the point. I willt ry to be more aware of that. thanks. --Steve, Sm8900 13:11, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Need more detail at Battle of Jenin

Hiya Steve, when you first came to the Battle of Jenin article you said things like "what is with all this unneeded bickering? simply state the Palestinian allegations, and then the Israeli allegations. this is a highly controversial topic. there's no need to try to create objectivity where there isn't any." and "My point was also, do you guys want to express all Palestinian allegations abouyt Israeli actions. Fine; i see no problem; in fact my attitude is the more we express of Paesltinian ideas, allegations and sentiments, the better."

But later, you seem to have changed your mind completely, you now appear to have trouble with Palestinian (and International) allegations/evidence appearing in this article. Did something change, or have I mis-understood you? PalestineRemembered 16:25, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Hi PR. I appreciate the open and positive tone of your email. And I am glad to hear from you, and to talk anytime, and to help with anything if you feel I can ever be helpful in anyway. However, sorry, but we do have a definite disagreement on this. So yes, I guess i do admit some room for some debate and contention in any article. however, the main difference in my approach, in my opinion, is that I make it a point to never battle with palestinians just because they disagree with me. Also, more importantly, I also do not battle with palestinians over viewpoints which some might call fringe theories, because i feel some viewpoints might be considered fringe, but are still real expressions of Palestinian concerns. I feel this last point is what distniguishes me from some other pro-Israel editors here, many of whom are good-faith and quite positive and neutral, but who are less inclined to include some narrow view. So that is my atitude. And I really appreciate and feel complimented by your attention to my previous comments.
In regard to your recent points, we have a distinct disagreement. First of all, at first i couldn't understtand how you could be arguing for a massacre when all your quotes indicate there was not a massacre. Kyaa's posts helped me understand; i realize you were trying to point out that major media outlets paid little attention to retractions of the massacre story. Hoverver glossing over some retractions is not the same as refuting those retractions. So given that all the articles and columns which you quote say that major media outlets were distorted if they claimed that a massacre did take place, i feel this upholds the mainstream view that no massacre toook place. I certainly don't feel that the view that there was no massacre should be treated as minority view. That seems to me to make very little sense. However, I really appreciate you writing,. and being able to discuss things so openly. Thanks very much for writing. --Steve, Sm8900 18:19, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
You're not "battling Palestinians" here, but you are "battling" WP policies if you accept what "windsofchange.com" want you to accept. Their references are some tiny portion of everything that was written about Jenin (they're also angry, polemical and nearly fact-free). Overwhelmingly (as they tell us in great detail), Jenin was treated by real RS's as an atrocity. And that's how the article should be written. It's in a shockingly POV state at the moment.
I was extremely disappointed that you refused to "write for the enemy" with the "Kurdi Bear" story. We're here to write an encyclopedia, after all - a small portion of personal accounts like that most certainly belong. That's how collegiate and cooperative editing is done. PalestineRemembered 21:36, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
Ok. You make some good points. I appreciate your ideas. I will try to sincerely think about this. thanks. --Steve, Sm8900 01:04, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Battle of Jenin and a documented massacre

You posted: "gimme a break. there is no support for massacre allegations, from any source. I think we need to stop arguing over labels and charged weasel words. --Steve, Sm8900 01:07, 4 September 2007 (UTC)".

I think you should know there is at least one direct and "investigated" allegation of a "mass-shooting" style massacre[5], and it appears to have been confirmed by Major-General Giora Eiland, the Head of the IDF Plans and Policy Directorate, described this case as one where IDF soldiers found three men hiding, one with a suicide bomb belt. He said: "There was one time when a company commander called on people to come out. Some women came out. The soldiers asked them if there were other people in the house. ‘Some visitors’, they replied. ‘Tell them to get out’. Three men got out; one held a baby. The IDF officer told him to give the baby to the women, he refused, the officer insisted, eventually he did so. Then they told the men to come closer and take off their shirts. Two took off shirts, one refused. Eventually he did and had a belt. He was shot."

This case is exceptional, because one of the men survived and disputes the allegations made by Israel against the men. He was able to give us the first names of the soldiers who did it. International observers have visited the spot where it happened and expressed unhappiness at the Israeli account. An autopsy was done on one of the dead men (this is almost the only such expert examination that Israel allowed to happen). No investigations was carried out by Israel, as is required in such cases.

But I'm glad you told us you believed that "Palestinian allegations" should go into the article, this one is clearly pretty credible and quite worrying. PalestineRemembered 10:10, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

OK. thanks for the input. i will think about the items which you mentioned. At this point, my position is the same. I think I'd rather discuss athe article at the article talk page. I appreciate you letting me know about this though. thanks. --Steve, Sm8900 14:01, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
I'm not asking you to think about it, I'm simply pointing out that you've made a statement that you almost certainly now think is a mistake. I'm inviting you to withdraw it and assist me in getting the massacre information into the article (since I know you're in favour of including credible evidence of this kind). Regards, PalestineRemembered 19:32, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
sorry. thanks for your comment. however, sorry, I do not feel my previous statement was a mistake. at this point, I am doing very little editing of this article, but I am willing to follow this dicussion. I do appreciate your ideas, and your positive view of how we might both work to improve things. thanks. --Steve, Sm8900 19:55, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Canvassing

I recently noticed you posted requests to watchlist Battle of Jenin to a selected group of users. I can't help but feel you are trying to "call in heavies" here, since you contacted only "pro-Israel" editors including a few notable edit warriors. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe this type of behavior is frowned upon. Eleland 18:15, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Hi Eleland. thanks for your message. you're correct that such behavior is not generally encouraged. howeverm it is considered accetable, when communicating in a neutral manner, with various specific editors able to lend their editing efforts in a good-faith manner. WP:CANVASS does not prohibit contacing specific editors in a neutral manner. thanks. --Steve, Sm8900 18:21, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
I do not believe that you've infringed on policy, just that you've made a fairly dubious decision to "stack the deck". There are established procedures for attracting wider attention to an issue, rather than specifically bringing in more people who agree with you. I could go searching around for "pro-Palestinian" editors to turn this into more of a slugfest, but Wikipedia is not a battleground, or rather, it's not meant to be one. Eleland 18:25, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
Ok, thanks. you make some good points. I will try to keep these points and concerns in mind. thanks. --Steve, Sm8900 19:53, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

(following comment was self-removed by poster, to helpfully avoid too much contention, then restored by page owner.) The same thing seems to have happened again, this time to User:Nadav1‎, User:Humus sapiens‎, User:Amoruso‎, User:Jayjg‎ and User:GHcool‎. I trust these accounts were not "preselect recipients according to their established opinions." which would appear to be a breach of campaigning. PalestineRemembered 20:05, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

good grief. no, they are just reliable editors. I don'tr know what the label is. I felt the article could benefit from their attention. If you think they would batter this article away, why trust anyone at Wikipedia? Anyone looking for a war could easily start one without my help or requests. the whole point here is that since they are not looking for random article to fight over, and defintely not looking for a war to start, it is beneficial for me to let them know that there is an article which could use their help and/or input. --Steve, Sm8900 20:11, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
The ArbCom is considering blocking you for a month for your previous "disruptive call to arms", I have notified them of this further example. PalestineRemembered 20:43, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
I consider your comment unwarranted, unjustified, and inconsiderate and disrespectful in the extreme. --Steve, Sm8900 21:07, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
Steve's contact with me falls under the category of a friendly notice. PalestineRemembered is correct with reference to my history of edits that see Israel in a positive light. I do not deny that I am what some people would call "pro-Israel," even though I dislike the term because it a more zealous attitude than the one I actually have. On the other hand, contacting me isn't that much more of a crime than contacting anybody else who edits extensively on Israel-related articles (most of whom seem to share my views on the Jewish state, perhaps because my views happen to be based on reliable sources).
In response to Steve's specific request, I regret that I do not feel comfortable adding Battle of Jenin to my watchlist because I honestly don't know very much about it and don't have the time right now to research it. From what I've read about Jenin, it seems to me to be a case of Palestinian terrorists from Jenin starting a fight by killing dozens of Israeli civilians, the IDF kills a handful of Palestinians (some were civilians), and then the world buying the Palestinian propoganda version of the story. I think the article is acceptable as it is. --GHcool 04:27, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
Ok, sounds good. appreciate your reply. thanks. --Steve, Sm8900 14:08, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
I have notified the Arbcom of your disruption to TalkPages. PalestineRemembered 18:05, 5 September 2007 (UTC)


yeah, I kinda got that from your previous message. thanks for confirming that though. appreciate it. see you. --Steve, Sm8900 19:01, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
Copied from my talkpage: Thanks for the invitation. The article is already on my watchlist, but unfortunately this month I don't think I will be on wikipedia often enough to be of much help in this. I'll look at the talk page and at least try to follow the debate. Best, nadav (talk) 16:00, 6 September 2007 (UTC) Re above: I took the notice to be in good faith, and I hope it was. Also, have I received a reputation as a pro-Israel editor? I'd much rather be considered a neutral editor and keep my personal opinions private. nadav (talk) 16:13, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
Ok, thanks for your reply. i think of you mainly as an energetic and articulate editor, with insight into various topics. thanks. --Steve, Sm8900 17:21, 6 September 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Sm8900 canvassing a 3rd time

At [6]

I believe that PR just called me a pervert. Sweet. Kyaa the Catlord 12:46, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
possibly. good to see you here, Kyaa. Drop by anytimne. thanks.
Steve (PR et alia), FYI, I've placed evidence against the canvassing concern, as it pertains to me. For what it's worth, instead of denouncing PR's allegations as "totally excessive..." etc., you might try simply stating that you consider the allegations as off-topic and that you have addressed them elsewhere. Take care. HG | Talk 18:58, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

I have deleted this last part of the notification to the ArbCom. PalestineRemembered 13:14, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Hi. Are you saying that you deleted part of your own message, in order to be constructive? I am always open to any positive actions on your part, so if that's the case, thanks; and thanks especially for taking the time to let me know here on my talk page. However, perhaps you were saying you deleted someone else's comments? Just want to make sure i fully understand. Anyway, thanks for contacting me. --Steve, Sm8900 13:40, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Correct. I fail to understand why you're having such a very hard time understanding the norms of the project, and the fact that HG claimed he was not being canvassed is neither here nor there, but I decided to delete it anyway. PalestineRemembered 16:33, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
thanks for your reply. In regards to my conduct, we have differing views on that. thanks. --Steve, Sm8900 16:38, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Allegations of apartheid" workshop page

Responding to your message on my talk, regarding the recent edit to the Allegations of apartheid workshop page, I am afraid I do not know the basis for this action and have no information about it. I could offer a surmise, but I do not think that would be useful. I suggest that you ask Fred Bauder directly on his talkpage, or on the proposed decision talkpage. Regards, Newyorkbrad 16:35, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

ok. however it is possible for you to follow up as well, based on the fact that you are the clerk for this case, and have not ben given a rationale for this? I will be offline for the next three days for holidays, and can take this up again when i get back online. thanks. --Steve, Sm8900 16:40, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
I've asked Fred to post further information. Newyorkbrad 16:49, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] WP:AN/I#PalestineRemembered_IV

Per WP:AN/I#PalestineRemembered_IV are you prepared to accept me as PalestineRemembered's mentor?Geni 01:18, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes. I haven't looked into this matter at all, but I assume you are a good, reasonable editor. Thanks for taking the time to write to me and to ask me. --Steve, Sm8900 16:09, 16 September 2007 (UTC)