Talk:Shoko Asahara

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[edit] Repetitive appeals for sources

There are several requests to provide citations for statements and facts mentioned in the article text. I will deal with each of the passages below, but the general answer to unformulated question of the editor who inserted these requests as I understand it is as follows: either the passage is based on materials published by Aum or discovered by researchears or it is widely known in Japan. Passages in question are therefore actually condensed and rephrased articles. I am currently puzzled how to technically fulfill the request. So, I will remove the appeals from the article, but will do my best to provide sources to everything said in it in Talks - be prepared that is lengthy, I will give you translated direct quotes when needed and if some CrimeLibrary author believes otherwise - let him obtain my sources, have them translated and argue with that. Hope this will do. If we put quotations into the article text, they will amount to full article each and there will be about ten. Not possible technically, so I suggest to discuss it here.

Shoko Asahara’s attitude towards religion was not typical for Japanese. While religion does not play a significant role in the lives of ordinary Japanese except in days of religious ceremonies such as funerals and weddings, Mr. Asahara’s goal was to ‘achieve the ultimate enlightenment’, so frequently mentioned in ancient religious scriptures, from the very beginning. He studied seriously and tried various schools, meditations and approaches to find the way that is really effective. Mr Asahara’s tenacity is, perhaps, most clearly illustrated by his pursuit of Agonshu.[citation needed]

Asahara told the story of his involvement with Agonshu himself many times, as evidenced by the transcripst of his speeches, also this is widely known and references may be found in Japanese newspapers at least. If anyone doubts in anything specific, please request a fuller answer.

In the early 1980s, Shoko Asahara joined Agonshu, a Buddhist religious group. The most serious of its religious practices was the practice of 1000 consecutive days of offerings. Those who offered money daily throughout this period were promised enlightenment. Despite the financial hardships, he completed the course. The enlightenment never came. He later recalled the story on a number of occasions to his disciples to illustrate the importance of faith: despite serious doubts regarding the effectiveness of practice and the religious organization itself, he continued to the very last day.[citation needed]

This is as close to Asahara's actual words as it gets, translated personally by me. See the collection of Asahara lections, please let me know if you need the page number and book name (I guess I could find it).

Several years passed and Asahara’s efforts started to bring results. He continued to live in a small one-room apartment in Tokyo’s Shibuya district with his wife and two daughters. It was during that period that he negotiated the support of his first, most loyal, disciples.

He started teaching them yoga. Financial hardship continued to constrain his efforts, as Shoko Asahara refused to accept any payment for his coaching, as this was contradictory with regard to religious principles - that only those who have achieved enlightenment can accept material offerings.[citation needed]

Again, this is well known. Not sure if the material offerings detail can be found anywhere else, that's what these early disciples said, translated and summarized by memory, please let me know if you need to see any of the stories translated and I will try to translate for you. Warning: as this was be words of those disciples, it will be highly biased pro-Asahara material (because what was said was said before the trials, around 1989 i believe). I stripped the compliments and religious stuff out and boiled it down to basic facts. There are many similar recollections saying basically the same. The phenomena of Asahara's persuasive powers was discussed many times in Japan, Bit Takeshi - the famous comedian and film director - also interviewed him twice on television and praised him immediately during the air, students attending meetings in universities Asahara visited etc... If something else is of interest, please kindly request.

People who knew Asahara during this period characterize him as a understanding, kind and compassionate person. One of them remembers that during one of her visits the foodstock of Mr Asahara’s family was completely used up and all that was left were some carrots. To motivate the hungry disciples that had not had their dinners to stay and train a little longer, he cooked a carrot salad. The fresh carrots went to disciples, while the rotten ones, unfit for the dish, he ate himself, smiling. Having heard about the unusual yoga teacher, friends of his disciples also started attending the classes.[citation needed]

Again, it is well-know how Aum was started. As to carrots, see above again (these are rephrased direct quotations except the words "understanding", "unusual" etc - there are unaltered). I tried to leave the disciple's POV out by stipping their religious explanations since I believe the human factor played the most important role. This passage answers the questions like "why these people, who recently graduated from elite universities, followed a bling and poor uneducated man living in some one-room remote apartment". These are questions that dominated the discussions on roots and origins of Aum in Japanese media for years. Basic answer: charisma. But here I demonstraded an example of charisma. Please request if you want anything translated.

I am thinking: this is perhaps not only the matter of sources, but the matter of credibility of sources as well as accuracy of reproduction and correctness of conclusion, an interesting separate subject in itself. We could discuss this as well (in a separate subtopic) - as similar questions will pop up in readers's minds most likely again in the future and this was people could get to 'talks' and read what already been discussed - if it becomes too lengthy, earlier parts will be archived, but still accessible (is that right?). Feel free to start.


Why is this page here? Shouldn't this be at "Shoko Asahara"? WhisperToMe 21:47, 3 Jul 2004 (UTC)

It appear that a member of Aum Shinrikyo/Aleph has joined in. Welcome :D. FWBOarticle 06:37, 28 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Thanks. Not a member though, but I've been about ten years ago. Added two rare pictures from my collection, will add same with better qualify if the CD survived. FWBOarticle: Aum/Aleph members appear to speak Japanese only (see the official site).
I am in doubt whether to remove the shot with Dalai Lama... If anyone is offended, feel free to remove.

ExitControl

I removed this "Many of the accusations vanished in the course of a trial for lack of factual base." because Asahara was convicted on all thirteen counts. WhisperToMe 00:27, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)

To my knowledge, there were more accusations than 13 and these were dropped. I will check it more thoroughly. ExitControl 18:41, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Checked. There were 17 counts, of which 4 were dropped in the course of the trial.ExitControl

Modified the following passage (modified or removed parts are in italic, explanation follows):

On March 20, 1995, Aum attacked the Tokyo Subway System with the nerve gas sarin. Twelve commuters died, and thousands more suffered a range of effects. After finding sufficient evidence, authorities accused Aum Shinrikyo in the attack, as well as in a number smaller-scale incidents. Several Aum followers admitted that they perpetrated these attacks, and one former doctor, who was a member of the cult, admitted his guilt and begged for forgiveness. He also denounced Asahara as the ultimate guilty party. (I will leave the notion that authorities accused a number of followers - not Aum Shinrikyo as organization - but will remove the doctor passage, as there is no point to focusing on that particular doctor since many of the followers gave similar testimonies). Tens of disciples were arrested, Aum’s facilities were raided and soon the court issued an order for Shoko Asahara’s arrest. He was discovered in a very small completely isolated room of the building belonging to Aum, supposedly (will remove "supposedly") meditating.

Shoko Asahara is currently imprisoned and faces 27 murder counts in 13 separate indictments. The prosecution argued that Asahara gave orders to attack the Tokyo Subway in order to seize the political government and become a king of Japan. The tensimony (syntax error) of former Aum members who were decent enough to repent (will remove as this is noted below already) confirmed these accusations. The prosecution also accused him of masterminding the Matsumoto incident and the Sakamoto family murder. As some of the disciples testified against Asahara, he was found guilty and sentenced to death on February 27, 2004. Several psychological experts have also done studies of the Aum cult and shown that Asahara had absolute control over his followers by brainwashing them. (this was actually the defense line of some of the accused, i.e. to argue that since Asahara "had absolute control", they couldn't distinguish good from evil and were "blindly following orders". Will remove as insignificant, especially the brainwashing theory is largely discredited. I we are to report this, I suggest to start a separate topic on Shoko Asahara trials, as amount of relevant information is quite large and there is no sense to post a portion of it here, while omitting other important details. I believe we currently have the most important basic facts here). ExitControl 18:41, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)


The poor childhood is OK, but according to Crime Library, Matsumoto was not that poor in the 80's. He had a firm Aum Association of Mountain Wizards, which was supposedly prospering quite well. There are other discrepancies. I don't know which version is right, though, so I don't touch anything.

Filip Hracek, 11 Dec 2004
The last line says that the death penalty was carried out in 2004. This is incorrect. Shoko Asahara is still alive in a Japanese jail. I have altered this line to reflect the fact that he was sentenced to death on the 27th of February 2004.
For lack of time will remove everygthing outright absurdous and will replace the CrimeLibrary link with something adequate. Also, the death sentence COULD NOT BE "CARRIED OUT" if the person is still alive, what an absurdity. Removed for common sence violation. - ExitControl

Should the first sentence in the article still say "alleged mass murderer"? He was convicted of it, after all, so there shouldn't be anything alleged about it. Anyone? Tennotsukai 23:51, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

Please feel free to change the text and update whatever latest information exists. Pavel Vozenilek 02:05, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

This article appears to be heavily biased. It presents a man many describe as a megalomanic or sociopath as close to a saint. A more critical approach would be appropriate given the fact that he masterminded a mass-murder, as well as murders of several individuals.

We are here not to publicize our opinions and judgements, but to provide facts. Yes, you are not the first to notice that Asahara didn't make an impression of a mass murderer. In fact, to those he personally met he made an impression of a very kind and compassionate person (as I believe is noted in the article). Please note that most of the characteristics apeared after the 1995 sarin attack, so it is understandable that people made their judgement post-factum.

[edit] CrimeLibrary Link

Removed the CrimeLibrary Link. Reason: heavy bias. It portrays Asahara as greedy and dishonest megalomaniac. Will provide examples later.

I put it back. It actually talks about Shoko Asahara (unlike other links there) and it provides viewpoint of one side. Pavel Vozenilek 04:19, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
Pavel, I suspect that the reasons of such persistence in restoration of this particular like relate to website talking BAD about Shoko Asahara as they aren't very accurate or informative, this is the real problem, not Anti-Asahara POV, bad language or excessive simplicity of writing. Restoring it back is IMO not NPOV, but rather imposing own POV (yours). OK, I will find more informative website and replace, hope you will agree with the change since anti-Asahara POV will most likely remain largely in place :-)
I deleted opinion quoted after link: (biased against Asahara). The readers will form their own opinion after reading the article. If there are other articles or websites with a different viewpoint, please post them, but do not delete the existing ones.
And I deleted the link. Don't know about viewpoints, but the language just doesn't seem to be OK for me. Anyone please find some article on Asahara not offensive to this degree language-wise and not coming from some counter-cult Christian or whatever 'ministry' or something? Surely, there must be some scholarly publication?

[edit] Appeals for sources

Removed; reason - this was just copied from 'Aum Shinrikyo' article by me (I stripped the data unrelevant to Asahara the person and left some information on Aum Shinrikyo as the organization he founded). I suggest to debate any doubtful passages here to see if we could rephrase or make the article more informative some other way.

[edit] Removed misleading statements

"Asahara succeeded to deploy a wide network of Aum Shinrikyo in Russia"

The 'wide network' conscisted in several training centers in one city, Moscow. This hardly could be called a 'wide' network.

, where he was supported by Vice-Prime-Minister Oleg Lobov.

True. Lobov reportedly helped to establish one of the branch centers, on Petrovka street near the Bolshoi Theatre. He later was accused of 'helping the cult' and anwered that he was not informed by any of the responsible state agencies about any problems with this group.

In 1992 - 1994 the Russian Federal Radio broadcasted Asahara's sermons every evening, from 9 to 10 pm.

True. It was Radio Mayak. There were also television broadcast.

Even ten years after Asahara's accusation conspirated cells of Aum Shinrikyo still exist in Russia.

It is not clear what kind of 'conspirated cells' are meant. There is no Aum Shinrikyo for more than 8 years, to start with. Aleph, a successor organization, has no legal problems on any activities, so there is no need with any 'conspirated' things. Russia's Aum legal entity also ceased to exist in 1995 by a court order (unrelated to the sarin incidents in Japan, although it probably influenced the court to some degree), but it seems that some former Aum members continue to have some form of communication, there are some websites in Russian that they maintain. But there is no need for any 'underground' activities, as they aren't members of any outlawed organization, unlike countries like China there is no problem with religious activities.

[edit] Link removed

Shoko Asahara in fact met with Dalai Lama several times. The article, however deals more with Dalai Lama (and is highly critical of him) rather with Shoko Asahara. Besides, this is the only more or less scholarly publication (at least by its format) expressing opinions so far-fetched. For example, it says Dalai Lama (whom the authors call 'god-king') is planning some Asian-wide war to establish a huge Buddhist state... and it quotes religious texts to support this idea... and it says Shoko Asahara is somehow connected to this conspiracy, and that Shoko Asahara is somehow Buddhist deity Mahakala and the Dalai Lama is Avalokiteshvara and that some Buddhist initiation places them in such positions (?) and so forth and so forth... I belive it is quite apparent that Dalai Lama's influence over religious and human rights issue in China-governed Tibet (after the communist occupation in the 50s Tibet is part of China) - is based on his reputation, based on his peace-making initiativies and propagation of Buddhist religious values such as compassion and love. China of course not only criticizes Dalai Lama publicly and officially, but tries to undermine his reputation... This is very in line with the Chinese official rhetoric that D.L. is purely political figure who tries to undermine China's sovereinity and stability by seeking separation of Tibet from China and that all his peaceful talk is just a decoy, while in fact after religious freedoms for Tibetans this 'extremist' will then ask for political autonomy and then separation of the region from China.
Removed the link once again. Besides, the article says that Aum monks engaged in some sexual ritual, toched each others genitalias etc. If you read Haruki Murakami's book you will find out that any sexual act resulted in punishment up to immediate expulsion and special 'purification' retreat was necessary for violators in order to stay. More than this, it was prohibitet to even touch the opposite sex, to have 'unnecessary conversations', to sleep in the same room even if other people also share it etc etc. All of this is very well known, since exacly this were reasons for criticism of Aum all the time. It was usually interpreted in a way that celibacy and strict rules somehow influence the mind in a way that make Aum monks more controlable etc.
Next, the article says that some Indian god Shiva (allegedly Aum's chief god) has some epithet (what that is supposed to mean it does not say - epithet) and that epiteth is Rudra, same as Rudra Chakrin, which means 'apocaliptic fire' (actually not) and since Dalai Lama's residence has some connecion to this god Shiva in Hinduism this means something (which exactly it does not say). Well, firstly Aum's Lord Shiva is not any Hindu god Shiva. Lord Shiva means Adi-Buddha, the premordial Buddha in Tibetan it is Samanthabadra. Not Hindu Shiva, the premordial Buddha. It is even explained on Aleph's website. Next, Shoko Asahara to my knowledge has never claimed to be 'an avatar of Shiva' (neither Hindu nor whatever), he did say that he is a 'servant of Lord Shiva' and 'body of incarnation of Lord Shiva' acting on advice from Lord Shiva i.e. his actions are inspired by the premordial Buddha, the Lord Shiva. He never claimed to be a reincarnated God in human flesh. May sound similar, but the meaning is very different. To say something means zero knowledge regarding Busshist tradition and culture.
Next, the article claims that in Buddhism (I understand the author means not merely Aum Shinrikyo but Buddhist religion in general) there is some 'law of inversion' (?) by which non-violence becomes exact opposite - violence. I heard about the Eightfold Path and 'law of karma' but never heard anything about any laws of inversions. Then it says that Phowa teachings justify murder since Phowa (to author's knowledge) means 'killing' (it does not). There is a quote: 'The Guru is a life form born to phowa all souls'. And it says that it means 'to kill' all souls (???). Well, you can google and find out what Phowa is. This is basically and upgrade, elevation of cosciesness, very similar to Enlightenment. So, in this sense, it means 'to enlighten all souls'. There is one more meaning to it, there is a Vajrayana teaching called 'phowa' (transmission of cosciosness), one of the Six Yogas of Naropa using which the practitioner "learns to transfer one's consciousness through the top of the head directly into a pure realm and so doing by-passes some of the typical experiences that occur after death". This is what phowa is. I failed to find any reference to the 'law of inversion'. Well, we have seen what phowa in Buddhism means, but the article says anyway that in Aum to practice phowa meant to kill someone, quoting verses that it says is 'Tantra-Vajrayana Vow', but it's not Tantra-Vajrayana vow. Aum's Tantra-Vajrayana wow is similar to Mahayana Vow:

Ho, souls of the living creatures that rise and fail in the ocean of samsara like reflections on the still lake, let them remain calmly in Maha Nirvana. Converting my soul into four immesurable minds (=love, compassion, joy, equanimity), I take refuge in Mahayana.

In Tantra-Vajrayana vow we read Tantra-Vajrayana instead of Mahayana. The difference is that Mahayana is a 'large vehicle' aimed on providing a gradual path to enlightenment to many of the living creatures (as opposed to shravaka vehicle, the Hinayana which is aimed on individual practitioners) and Vajrayana is said to be a part of Mahayana, the Great Vehicle but with addition of special methods which are said to increase the effectiveness of one's practice in order to achieve enlightenment in one lifetime.

We could check these vows in Shoko Asahara's books, they are printed everywhere. You can't just quote nonexistent Buddhist 'laws', combine quotations taken out of their context, misrepresent even the most basic Buddhist ideas and be featured in Wikipedia.

Then, Trimondi says kundalini yoga means to engage in sex. No, it does not mean to engage in sex, go check for yourself, it means to *control* and 'transform' the sexual energy, that is why celibacy is required. It is 'the yoga of energy'. In Aum we can read in Asahara's books that not only celibacy is a condition but those who mastered this yoga method are required to 'keep' the sexual energy as sexual misconduct is very harmful for such people et cetera. No, when we see Shiva and Shakti in what seems to be a sexual union that doesn't proov that sex is normal. Again, we could check the books, read the sermons that deal with this subject. It is a symbol, it symbolizes the union between wisdom (represented by a female deity, Uma-Parvati) and method (represented by Shiva). In Indian traditions sacred images (or tankas in Tibetan tradition) use imageries to allegorically retell spiritual doctrines. Such, we can see deities with multiple hands, legs, heads, holding varyous objects such as drums (damaru) or bells each symbolizing its own thing, sitting in lotus posture or standing et cetera. These are not to be taken literally, you actually need to receive (hear, read) an explanation to learn what each of the object symbolizes. Therefore, sacred paintings may involve sexual unions, but this is an allegory, they are not to be taken literally.

Let me add the most unbelievable passage (IMO):

"Hence, in interpreting the encounter between the two gurus in tantric terms, we have to assume it was an occult relation between a “god” (the Dalai Lama) and a “demon” (Asahara)."

Well, I have never heard or read anything about tantric terms of interpretation of meetings other than that if you recieve the teachings, you serve as a disciple in this relationship (even if a person serves as a guru to others) and similarly, if you give the teaching, you serve as a guru (the teacher). Such is the common understanding. There are no demons and gods here. Demons and gods are indeed a part of a traditional Buddhist view on universe, but definetely unrelated to disciple-to-guru relationships, though it is said that some of the teaching were transmitted from the deities, such as Budha Vajradhara (the mentioned premordial Buddha). There are legendary Buddhist teachers (like Padmasambhava) who are said to has taught Buddhism to demons whom they had to subdue before they become peaceful deities and there are various colorful stories about that, but again - this is a completely different thing - guru is a guru, god is god and demon is a demon, these are not related. Actually the whole article consists of passages and statements like this. Of course, there is no 'evil Buddha' in Buddhism, there are 'wrathful deities' but these are no Buddhas, Buddhas are something else, they are compassionate 'enlightened beings' and not deities as such, there is a big difference in place that deities occupy in Buddhism and God in Christianity. Buddha is not military leader, it is 'the one who has awakened to the truth', the reality of one's mind. There are no 'evil Buddhas' in Tibetan Buddhist tradition. An umbelievably unprofessional compilation. It ends with this:

"Is it really only a coincidence that the Fourteenth Dalai Lama appeared on the world stage together with the Japanese doomsday guru, Shoko Asahara?"

No, that's probably for a reason: to stage a military coup, to take over Japan and then launch (non-existent) nuclear missiles to America to start the Armageddon. Another 'axes of evil' maybe, this time with H.H. Dalai-Lama in place of Osama Bin Laden. Perhaps its not worth such a lenghy critique, but I wanted to explain why the article is below standards. The website says in its other articles things like that CIA trained some 'Tibetan guerillas'. It again is not clear on what sources such claim is based. Recent history of Tibet is well known and there are little controversies there. Figures, timelines, everything - readily available. You don't need to learn Buddhism to deal with history. Yet again, we find fantastic tales on evil Tibetan politician and good and reasonable Chinese (that murdered more than a million Tibetans to date in 10 years, while the population is several millions total and these are facts, not interpretations). Anyone may have an opinion, but it must be in conformity with the facts and facts must be correct.

As regards the meetings with Dalai Lama, Shoko Asahara indeed met with Dalai Lama at least twice (he actually met with many of the known and reputable spiritual teachers and leaders, including late Kalu Rinpoche of Tibetan Kagyu lineage and many yoga teachers). Many spoke very highly of him. The office of Dalai Lama aswered a request regarging these meetings, explaining that the meetings did indeed take place. Aum's accounts portray a friendly conversation about history of Buddhism in Japan (quotations seem to be correct in this regard).

[edit] People want blood.

Is there a schedule for execution? Will his body get burned and ashes dispersed in secret to prevent ritual gathering at the graveside?

(I am a big public transport fan and cannot forgive him for attacking the underground railway system. He deserves to hang.) 91.83.16.172 (talk) 22:23, 10 May 2008 (UTC)