Talk:Shamrock Rovers F.C.

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Shamrock Rovers F.C. was a good article nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. Once these are addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. Reviewed version: April 22, 2007

Hi, I think this page could do with a bit of housekeeping at least.

Firstly I'd suggest getting rid of the Present and instead replacing the on the field content with a season review for 2006. Possibly under a headline of Recent History.

The SRFC Member section probably should be mostly included in the History section, with a one line explanation of the running of SRFC in an About type paragraph at the top.

The Tallaght Stadium also deserves its own section although it has its own wikipedia entry. Both that page and this have been vandalised repeatedly. Whatever is put here regarding the Stadium needs to be well cited from government websites, court affidavids and media reports. Provided proper references are given it will be hard for anyone to argue that there is a POV bias to it.

I'll try and put together a proposed page over Christmas and see what folks think of that. --Albert.white 15:58, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

ok, heres my work so far: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Albert.white/Shamrock_Rovers

Going along with Being Bold I'll make most of these changes to the main article in the next day or so unless there are objections.

--Albert.white 18:05, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Contents 1 1901 -v- 1899 2 GA Nomination 3 GA nomination failed 3.1 Improving the prose: using colours and crest as an example 4 club's crowds averaged between 400 and 1500 [1].

[edit] 1901 -v- 1899

I've just modified an edit to say that the club was founded in 1899 and that 1901 was just used to mark a centenary in 2001. The club history as written by Robert Goggins in his book referenced in the article states that the club was founded in 1901, and cites a program from 1941 stating this also. So 1901 is clearly not a new date. 1899 is believed by many to be the actual year of founding however so I've left a note to that effect. I guess this will remain unresolved until someone can trawl through the newspaper archives from 1899-1901. Officially 1901 is the date used by the club so we'll use that here. --Albert.white 10:52, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA Nomination

I think at this stage that the article is good enough for Good Article status, so I've nominated it. The main points about the club are covered. At least we'll see where there is room for improvement. --Albert.white 19:08, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA nomination failed

This article failed good article nomination. This is how the article, as of April 22, 2007, compares against the good article criteria:

• Well written?: Fail. Difficult to quantify in a concise statement, but the article could do with a thorough copyedit. As an example, I've gone through the Colours and Crest section below. Following the advice given in User:Tony1/How to satisfy Criterion 1a may be of benefit, particularly for eliminating redundant words (phrases such as "over the years" and "in addition").
• Factually accurate?: Fail. Several sections are completely unsourced, and need references, preferably in the form of inline citations.
• Broad in coverage?: Pass, covers the major aspects of the club.
• Neutral point of view? Borderline. The passages about the Tallaght Stadium perhaps give an undue weight to the legal matters. There are a few instances of weasel words and peacock terms e.g. ...added the Harmon Cup to make it a memorable double, Shamrock Rovers were still, to many, considered the most prestigious club in Irish football, announced exciting plans to bring Rovers to a new stadium.
• Article stability?: Pass, no obvious issues here.
• Images?: Pass, contains two images with free-content licenses

When these issues are addressed, the article can be resubmitted for consideration. If you feel that this review is in error, feel free to take it to a GA review. Thank you for your work so far. Oldelpaso 12:54, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Improving the prose: using colours and crest as an example

It isn't easy to describe exactly what the issues are with the prose, but hopefully this will gove some sort of idea.

The club's colours are green and white hoops. Shamrock Rovers originally played in green and white stripes. The green and white hooped jerseys were adopted after Belfast Celtic donated a set of their hooped jersies to Shamrock Rovers in the 1920s. The first game with the hooped jersies was against Bray in a cup match in 1926. 2007 sees the first season where the hoops are not continuous around the jersey, this is due to a FIFA regulation which states that clubs with hooped or striped jersies must have the players number on a square of plain colour.

The section starts with a number of abrupt sentences which convey related ideas. The flow could be improved by linking the most closely related of these ideas:

Shamrock Rovers' colours are green and white. The club originally played in green and white stripes, but in 1926 the club adopted green and white hoops after Belfast Celtic donated a set of hooped jerseys...

The club crest has always had a football and a shamrock. Though some very minor changes, such as the style of the shamrock and width of the diagonal lines, have occurred through the years.'

Consider the following: The club crest features a football and a shamrock, and has done so throughout the history of the club, with only minor alterations. Changes include the style of the shamrock and the width of the diagonal lines. Oldelpaso 12:54, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] club's crowds averaged between 400 and 1500 [1].

I'm going to revert that back to what it was previously. Those figures are given by Louis Kilcoyne in an RTE Documentary. Louis company, not the club, profited from the sale of the ground and its in his interest to give false lower attendance figures and so is not a credible source. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Albert.white (talk • contribs) 17:15, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

I edited the below 3000 attendances as this is an over-estimated figure for the actual numbers going to games at Milltown. In the cited RTE documentary http://youtube.com/watch?v=rsiZuZA-ku8 Both Gerry Macken former player and KRAM participant stated "the crowds didn't come and watch the games, it was as simply as that".(2 mins 10 secs). Louis Kilcoyne CEO of Shamrock Rovers stated "typically the average attendance ranged from 400 to 1500, the regulary Rovers' support had just given up." (2 minutes 39). Bernard O'Byrne states "One of the things that stuck in my memeory was they were very small gates, 5, 600 people going to matches but yet when they said they were going to sell the ground all of a sudden there was 30 or 40,000 people protesting."(5 minutes 04). It unfortunate the contributor above has made an unsubstaniated comment and deleted testimony on Shamrock Rovers move from Glenmalure Park. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.198.128.150 (talk) 18:55, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Whats in the programs and books would support the average of < 3,000. I've no doubt that there were games with ~400 at them in the 80's but thats certainly not a reflective number for the average during the 80's. Edit in that the figure is disputed if you like... --Albert.white (talk) 19:50, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

The RTE documentry falls within wikipedia:verification and NPOV signed Timmy.

The current statement does not as citing Louis is clearly not NPOV. Furthermore the article now states 'by the 1980s the club's crowds averaged between 400 and 1500' The RTE documentary does not even indicate this timeframe. --Albert.white (talk) 22:03, 10 February 2008 (UTC)