Talk:Sawed-off shotgun

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[edit] Pistol license?

The article says "In most states, a shotgun less than a certain length is legally classed as a pistol, and requires a pistol licence (which is much more difficult to obtain than a basic shotgun license), plus a registration. The act of sawing off the gun would constitute unlawful manufacture of a pistol." The entirety of this article refers to the USA and then we have this sentence about "pistol licences" (which only exist in a few U.S. states) and "shotgun licences" which are certainly not an American phenomenon. Further, there is generally no prohibition against manufacturing a pistol in the USA. Of course if you manufacture a pistol out of a shotgun it's not a pistol at all, it's an AOW or SBS. I will remove that the above sentences if there is no objection.

That is a UK regulation, and should probably be tagged as such. And the pistol license is probably a moot point, you can't get a pistol license in the UK anymore, for any reason, that's why the UK Olympic pistol team practices in France... scot 15:52, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
The national team can't even practice in the country anymore? That's sad. Here in the States the rules are almost as screwy. take the Mossberg 500 12ga. pump-gun, it comes in a box with both a full buttstock and a pistol grip, one is attached the other is loose in the box. If your shotgun shipped with the pistol grip attached at the factory and you cut down the barrel to under 14 inches then you have created an A.O.W.(any other weapon) and you will have to register that with the Treasury dept. and pay for a tax stamp (about $5.00 per year). If your shotgun shipped with the full buttstock attached at the factory and you cut the barrel down under 14 inches then you have commited the felony crime of creating a short barreled shotgun and you can be imprisoned for up to 20 years. Exact same weapon, same box, same price the only difference is that the pistol grip was screwed on at the factory rather than the full buttstock. Fear the government that fears your guns. Cheers. L0b0t 16:20, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
Yep. That's why Serbu won't do the AOW "shorty" conversions on your Mossberg/Maverick, they have to buy it themselves so they know it came in the "cruiser" configuration. At least the Supreme Court isn't so picky, they at least let you buy a T/C rifle and put a pistol barrel on it, as long as you take the stock off. That leads me to believe that if you did convert a stocked gun to an AOW, that you'd have a strong case in your favor. Just make damned sure that you replace the stock with the pistol grip before you put on the short barrel... scot 17:55, 7 November 2006 (UTC) (Disclaimer: I'm not qualified to give legal advice, so just guy it from Serbu if you want one, let them take the legal liability)
I drool over those Serbu conversions. They are soooo pretty. Unfortunately, work and school have landed me in the People's Republic of Brooklyn for the next few years, so firearms are a no-go. In NYC to keep a gun in your home you have to have a permit from your local police precinct (that they may deny without cause) at $80.00 per year per weapon. Want to take your gun somewhere in a car, another $80 per weapon per year transport permit. Fancy having a firearm in your place of business, yet another $80 per year per weapon business permit. And yet we have gun crime here every day (our mayor blames Virginia), go figure. L0b0t 18:11, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] '86 MG ban and SBS

I'm not sure the ATF doesn't issue tax stamps for short barreled shotguns and rifles; I think the '86 ban effected only stamps for machineguns. scot 03:42, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Here's a class III dealer who states that post '86 SBRs and SBSs are transferrable: http://www.davesworld-oh.com/ I'm going to yank the statement from the article. scot 03:48, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Moved text:

Some guns are made with a shorter barrel to achieve the same effect [larger spread and limited range? -- S], especially when slugs are used, such as with some elephant guns.

until someone can explain if it makes any sense to them. As it stands, it seems nonsensical. (Elephant guns are rifles, not shotguns, and tend to have large barrels. Achieving larger spread from shotgun slugs makes no sense.) -- Securiger

Source for use of entry shotguns (10 and 14 inch barrels) by US forces in Iraq: http://armedforcesjournal.com/blackwater/analysis4.html I'll add this to the article later. scot 02:24, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

Contradiction:

"the weapon has larger spread and limited range."

In the same paragraph:

"As a note, the length of the barrel does not affect the spread of the pellets (which depends on the type of cartridge fired and the choke of the barrel - not the barrel length)."

Which is right?

Both are, there's just a link that's not being pointed out. From the time that chokes were discovered until just recently (the last 10-20 years) most shotguns were made with fixed chokes; the end of the barrel was made undersized by the degree of choke desired; modified or improved cylinder was common for single barrel guns, doubles often had modified or improved in one barrel, and full in the other. Since the choke was in the last inch or so of the barrel, cutting off the end of the barrel would open it up to cylinder bore, which gives a wider, looser pattern. "Wider" is a good thing at close range, since it increases the hit probability, but the associated "looser" is bad at longer range, since it decreases the number of hits you can expect on the target. Most modern guns (in general anything but the cheapest models) come standard with interchangeable choke tubes--basically a cylinder or slightly overbored barrel, with a threaded section at the end where inserts of various constriction--from cylinder to super extra full, or even rifled--can be screwed in. scot 01:10, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
As it stands, this makes no sense whatsoever to the average reader (such as me). I'm suggesting someone who has an idea of how sawing of the pipes makes the spread bigger and not affecting it at the same time works, or what choke is, rewrites this. Adding contradicts itself label.
Actually, I ran across a statement that supported, to a limited extent, greater spread from a shorter barrel; the shot does not begin to spread until the muzzle, so moving the muzzle closer to the shooter does increase the spread at the target; however, since spread from a cylinder bore barrel tends to run on the order of 1/2" per foot, cutting a foot off the barrel gets you only an extra half inch of pattern. scot

[edit] Article split proposal

Since the term "sawn off shotgun" implies an illegally modified shotgun, and there are plenty of short barrelled shotguns made that way for military and law enforcement use, would it be worthwhile to split off a new article on "entry shotgun", which is how the purpose built short barrelled shotguns are often labled (by, for example, Remington and Benelli)? Probably much of the content here could go into the entry shotgun article, and this article can concentrate on the illegal variety. scot 17:59, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Hey, I added the UK Laws a while ago, also the raw, uncited stuff about Lupara's and the Omertá etc, I have just signed up, I still think the section on UK Shotgun laws needs some links to UK gun Law articles. Will get around to this, when it's not 1am --Tearz 00:12, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] rambo gauge

I thought it might be worth mentioning that gangs refer to a sawed-off shotgun as a rambo gauge. [[[1]]] Jecowa 02:20, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Different Types?

What about Sawn-off Shotguns that instead of using a double barrel, as most do, what about a pump-action shotgun thats sawn off?

[edit] Merge from Boomstick

Please merge any relevant content from Boomstick per Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Boomstick. Thanks. —Quarl (talk) 2007-02-11 04:29Z

There is nothing in that article worth merging. It seems to be references to a movie and bits of trivia about dope and television shows. Delete it. Cheers. L0b0t 04:32, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
If there's nothing to merge, then just leave it as a redirect. Thanks. —Quarl (talk) 2007-02-11 06:38Z
I would even be opposed to a redirect. It is a neologism from a video game, that no one interested in this article would ever search for. Maybe put a link like this [[Sawed-off shotgun|boomstick]] in the article for the video game itself, but an article on a real firearm is the wrong place for this sort of fancruft. Cheers. L0b0t 14:38, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes, get rid of the redirect, the Boomstick article has significant info for people who type Boomstick into the searchbox 86.141.176.135 03:24, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

You're all wrong, Really. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.167.60.7 (talk) 15:42, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Title incorrect

I have never heard these guns referred to as sawed-off, sawn-off yes. Any ideas? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by HowEmbarrassing (talk • contribs) 18:38, 1 March 2007 (UTC).

As the article probably should mention, "Sawed-off" is the more common in American English, vs "Sawn-off" in Commonwealth English. "Sawed-off shotgun" wins a googlefight by 3:1. FiggyBee 18:57, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
Google fights are irrelevant, I think International English should prevail here. Viralmonkey 17:46, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
It should be Sawn-Off as only the United States refers to the shotgun as a sawed-off. International English and Commonwealth english do not have the term sawed, but instead, sawn. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 58.165.178.100 (talk) 11:24, 28 March 2007 (UTC).

I agree with the "sawn-off" crowd. "Sawed-off" sounds like something a small child would say. - Daddy Kindsoul 10:40, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

I've lived in the States my entire life, and this article's title was the only time I've ever seen the phrase "Sawed-off". I don't think it should be listed as either British or American English variants, as that really has nothing to do with it. PaZuZu 10:11, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

"Sawed-off" is the legally-defined term in the U.S. and is by far the more common expression in the U.S. "Sawn-off" is distinctly more of a British expression. As this is not a topic with much traction in the U.K, anyway, and since it is legal to possess these under U.S. law with the appropriate licenses, I suggest we leave it as "sawed-off", with re-directs for "sawn-off" to the same article. Yaf 11:43, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

I live in the US and have never, ever heard the words "sawed-off." It is implausible and unbelievable when you to tell me that sawed-off "is by far the more common expression in the U.S." --69.123.112.18 (talk) 06:42, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

The goal of Wikipedia is to cure such deficits of knowledge. It is the most common expression. for example, see page 6. Or, see this bill. Yaf (talk) 14:44, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] What about cut-down rifles

Should this whole article be a main section under an article about Short barrel firearms (or something similar). All of the legal issues and perceived coolness apply to short rifles. (see Mare's Leg) —MJBurrage(T•C) 22:14, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

I would not favor this, as an SBS represents a much more commonly seen weapon among criminals. I don't recall a single SBR ever being used criminally, but I am sure there must have been some in the past. That said, another article on short barreled firearms would certainly have a link to this article. Yaf (talk) 22:30, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
I do not disagree that short barrel shotguns are more common than short barrel rifles. However there is probably not enough material for two separate articles. And a rifle section in a shotgun-named article makes less sense to me than a firearms article that would have three main sections. 1) Shotguns, 2) Rifles, and 3) legality.
We would still be able to redirect sawed-off shotgun to the shotgun section of the new article. —MJBurrage(T•C) 22:55, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Prevalence vs. handgun availability

This sentence comes of as somewhat POV:

"In countries where handguns and pistol ammunition are rare due to legal restrictions or high price, criminals are known to convert legal or stolen hunting weapons into concealable weapons."

This practice may indeed be more common where handguns are less available, but it occurs in countries where handguns are available as well. Right now it reads like a subtle criticism of gun control. There are additional reasons why one would make such a weapon. I will try to alter this sentence slightly to reflect this. Bad ideas 22:21, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Picture

Pic=stolen http://www.keepshooting.com/productimages/firearms/class3/btpmodel2shortbarrelbig.jpg "taken by myself on white tarp" my ass —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.0.149.121 (talk) 06:32, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

I've tagged the image as disputed over a Wikimedia Commons. There is a chance that the original uploader is affiliated with BTP Arms, and if so, they may have the right to release the image; if not, then it will be removed. scot 17:00, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Civilian"

Police officers are NOT in a different class from "civilians." There's a reason we in the Army have a branch that's called military police. 128.220.152.49 (talk) 18:59, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

You obviously haven't looked at the requirements to get a handgun in Washington, D. C., or a .50 BMG rifle in California, or get a handgun in the UK. The police, just like the military, are specifically exempt from most firearms legislation, including the Brady Bill, the Federal Assault Weapons Ban, the National Firearms Act, and the Gun Control Act of 1968. In addition, check out the definition of civilian: a person who is not on active duty with a military, naval, police, or fire fighting organization. scot (talk) 22:27, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Same destructive power?

What's the point of a wider spread if the "destructive power" is the same as the article claims? If the spread is larger, the destructive power should be greater since the pellets are impacting a larger area. Malamockq (talk) 02:08, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

The main reason for cutting down a shotgun is to make it easier to handle in tight spaces, and/or to make it easier to conceal. The power (in terms of muzzle energy) of a short barreled gun is slightly less than that of a long barreled gun, as the shot isn't under acceleration for as long (though with a shotgun, the low pressures and large swept volume mean most acceleration takes place in the first few inches). Beyond that, you're into very subjective territory. A wider spread does increase hit probability at short range, by being more forgiving of poor aim (this is why skeet chokes are only .005", barely tighter than a cylinder bore), but it also reduces the pattern density and reduces the range at which you can expect multiple hits. A standard military buckshot load only has 9 pellets, so by the time you get out to 40 yards (the military's max range for a combat shotgun), the spread from a cylinder bore is about 60 inches (see Shotgun#Pattern_and_choke). That's two square feet per pellet (a square 44cm on a side), which makes makes it more likely than not you'd hit a human sized target at that range, but not by a lot. On the other hand, at typical room-to-room fighting (or a Mafia hit) ranges, say 4 yards, your spread will be only about 6 inches (15cm). This is nowhere near the mythical clear-a-room-in-one-shot spread, but it is quite a bit more forgiving than a single projectile. scot (talk) 15:48, 12 February 2008 (UTC)