Talk:Sanctuary city

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[edit] Pertinence of terms, de facto and de jure

The following was removed:

A sanctuary city is a United States city that follows certain practices that protect illegal immigrants. These practices can be explicit, or de jure, or they can be implicit, or de facto. The city is a sanctuary for illegal immigrants who wish to avoid deportation; in short, such a city does not enforce immigration law.

This is appropriate text. It addresses in formal language the practices that involve government officials' "looking the other way" (de facto) about illegal immigration, and formal declarations of non-cooperation with federal law (de jure). Dogru144 17:05, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

It wasn't removed, it was made non-US-specific, per the {{global}} template that editor also added.--SarekOfVulcan 17:00, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
Actually, the above text was removed. Just compare the history. Additionally, this is a US-specific term. Unless someone can otherwise document, the United States is the only nation-state that has a significant number of municipalities that make specific ordinances in resistance to national immigration policy. Dogru144 17:05, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
This however was intentional as saying de jure and de facto is inappropriate. It's not a real sanctuary city if it is not written down. Virtually every U.S. city is a de facto sanctuary city under that definition. Perspicacite 17:30, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

This section,

"Critics have argued that a large proportion of violent crimes in some sanctuary cities result from this policy. 95% of outstanding homicide warrants in Los Angeles are for illegal immigrants (as half of the outstanding arrest warrants in Los Angeles are for Mexican nationals who have fled the country, and hence cannot be arrested here).[4] (These data originate from a Center for Immigration Studies report which relied on data from a confidential California Department of Justice study.[5]) Two-thirds of felony warrants in Los Angeles are for illegal immigrants. Critics additionally argue that the policy provides a refuge for international gangs such as the MS-13 gang.[6]"

seems completely made up. The sources cited do not substatiate these absurd claims. Furthermore, what difference does it make if in one city a very high percentage of feloy warrants are for illegal immigrants? It would only matter if that was true in every "sactuary city." Lastly, what types of felony warrants were being issued? Were the warrants issued for illegal immigration or for nother crimes? This is an important question because the argument seems to be that illegal immigrants are committing a lot of crimes beyond just being in the country illegally. But if most of those warrants are just for being in the country illegally then illegal immigration does not appear nearly so damaging to the social fabric as it does if illegal immigrants are responsible for most of the crimes committed in cities. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.124.92.254 (talk) 18:02, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

I would also point out that the assertion is spurious because warrants become outstanding if the authorities chase their suspects out of the country, and hence out of reach. The entire section is overly and overtly alarmist. Fifth Rider (talk) 21:54, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

The following was removed to due to misrepresentation of cited material and for lack of citation to support included statistics: , citing one study showing that nearly half of outstanding homicide warrants in Los Angeles are for illegal immigrants.[1] Two-thirds of felony warrants in Los Angeles are for illegal immigrants.[citation needed] 76.202.75.206 17:35, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Removal of substantive edits regarding murders of police and young adults

An editor had removed a reference that linked to an article regarding the recent execution-style murder of three young women in Newark: Illegal Immigration an Issue in Newark Murders -- 08/13/2007. Of course, citizens commit murders. The concern is that the prime suspect had a long felony rap sheet, and he was an illegal alien. Community members and elected officials, e.g., Councilman Ron Rice, have expressed concern that if there were coordination between local law enforcement and federal authorities, this crime could have been prevented. Much of the activity of police is crime prevention, not merely pursuit of possible perpetrators of crimes. Dogru144 17:05, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Again, If he had a long felony rap sheet, it's irrelevant whether he was an illegal immigrant or not. Just because they can't ask on arrest doesn't mean they can't ask on conviction, yes?--SarekOfVulcan 17:42, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Removal of mention of murders of police

The following text was removed (-which also contained references to the murdered police and sheriffs, including among others: Ronald Johnson, Saul Gallego, David March):

Illegal aliens have been implicated in the killings of police and sheriffs during routine traffic stops. [2]

Again, it is true that citizens also murder police. The point is: these murders could have been avoided if the individuals in question were not in the United States, sheltered by sanctuary policies in so many cities. Dogru144 17:11, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

  • If I made that edit, then The removal was unintentional. Perspicacite 17:28, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
Mine wasn't. It wasn't relevant at that point in the article. There might be another spot it will fit, but I doubt it.--SarekOfVulcan 17:42, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
I don't see you're point. Of course if you increase population there are going to be more crimes. If we through all of the people out of the United States, there would be no crimes. Just because there's a random illegal immigrant out there who does a crime doesn't mean we should discriminate against them. Blacks, for one, commit more crimes than illegals, but I here no crimes for a genocide against them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.251.36.143 (talk) 08:09, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Global template needed?

Is this term even used outside the United States? If not than I don't see how it could have a more international worldview. -LtNOWIS 20:16, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

I came here to ask the same question. As no one has answered you in more than two months, and I can find no reference to the term being used anywhere but in the United States, I'm going to remove the tag. faithless (speak) 07:55, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Neologism?

I heard that this term is a Neologism recently coined for this election. Does anyone know the origin of the term? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.81.39.219 (talk) 04:15, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Working on it. I first got wind of it today; NPR used it somewhere around 3 times in as many minutes. I believe it was Mitt Romney using it. I would go poking around in transcripts of recent Republican stump speeches if I had time. I have a feeling that this is a new GOP dysphemism. Fifth Rider (talk) 21:49, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Crime ?!

FOX News and some CNN critics have charged that these cities are dens of criminals and gangs. Recently, a woman was murdered by a illegal alien in one of these cities. Now the family wants to SUE (Can I say THAT here and still comply with being politically fucked-I mean politically correct?) the US govt, for willful and intentional malfeasance and derilection of duty to the US citizens to keep out terrorists and criminals. Can THAT be ststed in the article ? 65.163.112.104 (talk) 00:29, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

They're saying that OTHER nations don't put up with illegal aliens and is why the US is thought of as a joke, because of Political Correctness. 65.163.112.104 (talk) 00:30, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sentence starters

In the section titled United States, there are at least 5 sentences which start with a phrase such as "Critics have argued", with a number of others starting with the names of specific critics or something like "They contend", where "they" means "critics". Yet, every attempt to insert a single sentence starting with "Proponents of such policies argue" gets reverted with a claim of POV pushing in the edit summary. Why is this? Is there some wikipedia rule about not starting a sentence with the letter "P". --Ramsey2006 11:55, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

The overall content being changed is highly POV. Neutrality, not a 180 turn, is the goal. Perspicacite 15:35, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
Why does your interpretation of WP:NPOV apply to sentences that start with a "P", but not to sentences that start with a "C"? --Ramsey2006 16:42, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
That's a very clever, but not a particularly persuasive question. Perspicacite 02:00, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
Why don't you just explain why you will not allow a single sentence describing the positions of proponents of the policies in question, while several paragraphs of statements about the positions of critics (such as WorldNetDaily) are necessary. How does this help the article maintain neutrality? --Ramsey2006 12:30, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
Ideally, all of these sentence starters should be reworked. State the facts without using weasel words. Fifth Rider (talk) 21:45, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] restore comment by anon editor

The following was the result of an anonymous editor editing a comment higher up on this talk page. It is unclear whether it was intended to be a talk page comment or an edit to the article (which the edit summary would seem to suggest), but I have reverted the talk page edit and am instead placing the edited comment as a (presumably) proposed alternative opening sentence here. --Ramsey2006 23:02, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

A sanctuary city is a United States city that follows certain practices that protect its immigrant residents, regardless of their immigration status. These practices can be explicit, or de jure, or they can be implicit, or de facto. The city is a sanctuary for immigrants who seek to live without being discriminated against or targeted on account of their real or perceived immigration status (which all-to-often also involves issues of race and class). In short, such a city provides equal treatment and protection to all its residents, regardless of immigraiton status. Additionally, as a policy it seeks to affirmatively commit itself to protecting the human rights of all immigrants. 63.78.124.2 22:49, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] New lead

I just removed the following text from the lead because of formatting issues, and because it made uncited assertions about the definition. Can it be rephrased so that it fits in the article?

The city is a sanctuary for illegal immigrants who wish to avoid deportation. A sanctuary city is not a place for illegal immigrants who wish to avoid deportation but is rather a city that simply dictates the role of the local governing body and its employees. The term sanctuary is somewhat of a misnomer as the policies do not interfere with the federal government’s ability to enforce immigration laws and protect immigrants from deportation. --SarekOfVulcan 18:59, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV

The issue here is not semantics or minor details. The issue here is that the article itself must be about the nature and history of a political buzzword and not either a discussion of the policy it describes or a rant from either side. The article needs a new history section to explain the origin of the term. The article uses the buzzword as if it was a generally accepted academic term. The article clearly favors one side of the discussion over another, and cites unreliable and likely biased sources as it does so. I think we all need to calm down and find sources that describe the term and not the policy or arguments on either side. Encyclopedias are meant to inform, not convince. See WP:REDFLAG Fifth Rider (talk) 15:21, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

I fixed some of the wording but not saying that is all that needs to be done. It would be good to have an official federal government wording of this to help the article. The notion of sanctuary cities is definately a rallying point of the U.S. anti-illegal immigration movement but is still a notable enough topic for an article. MrMurph101 (talk) 18:54, 25 March 2008 (UTC)