Talk:Roy Keane

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Roy Keane was a good article nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. Once these are addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.

Reviewed version: August 13, 2006

Is Roy keane of Man Utd related to Robbie Keane of Spurs?

Nope 134.226.112.12 17:01, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Yes they are cousins. It was mentioned heavily during the '02 world cup in Japan which saw the "big-split" from the rest of the Irsih Team. RuSTy 01:47 1/6/06.

I was sure they were brothers. I heard something about their Dad dying a few seasons ago.

Brothers???? No way! Roy is from Cork and Robbie from Tallaght. Roy does have a brother who used to (still?) play for Cobh Ramblers (a semi pro outfit). I really doubt that there is even a distant relative link between Roy & Robbie. I would be very suprised if there was...Downunda 21:47, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

No way, no relation whatsoever, I heard Roy Keane had a brother Tommy Keane, well as far as I remember, who played soccer in England? He had an injury and retired. I think Robbie Keane was emerging as a famous player at the same time. Would need to be checked first. Frainc 02:14 18 sept 2006

if anyone would like to look at the robbie keane trivia section??theres thousands upon thousands of Keane's in Ireland, It's simply a co-incidence, hence the ironic chant "there's only one Keano"Plokt

Contents

[edit] Since the civil war

"most dramatic ideological split the country had seen since the Irish Civil War" - this sounds like an exaggeration, to put it mildly. How big was it really? Some more stuff in the article (quotes etc) would be great. CTOAGN 10:24, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

It was even claimed by some to be the most dramatic ideological split the country had seen since the Irish Civil War.
This is the greatest load of nonsense I have ever read on Wikipedia. What sort of fact is this ? PalX 08:36, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
The article never said that it was the most dramatic split; merely that it was claimed by some to be. And by some, I mean both the Irish Independent and the Irish Times sports sections, the two most respected papers in the country. NaLaochra 18:37, 22 January 2006 (UTC)


with one half of the nation standing by Roy Keane and the other half supporting Mick McCarthy.

and another half of the nation who couldn't give a toss about the antics of two overpaid prima donnas

who wrote this stuff ?PalX 11:36, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

If you are really so indifferent about football to the extent where you think that the Saipan Incident wasn't a major event in Irish current affairs - despite the fact that the Taoiseach himself intervened - then you clearly aren't in a position to be judging the merits of a football-related article.NaLaochra 18:38, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Let's not get too ahead of ourselves now. It was a big deal in footballing terms and indeed cultural terms but I don't think we should be calling it the biggest split since the Civil War! --Lochdale 18:50, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
The whole Saipan fracas should be moved to a seperate article, as it is an incident that involves Keane, McCarthy, the FAI, Niall Quinn etc. etc. and isn't only about Roy Keane, so doesn't belong on this page. It's clogging up

"But, in terms of his support, that is where it started and ended. There is no financial contribution Dermot will make towards this deal."

Manager Gordon Strachan added: "He has proved over the last 15 years that he is a competitor.

"You can't get enough competitors in your squad and this was too good a chance to miss."

Keane will not be eligible to make his Celtic debut against Hearts at Tynecastle on New Year's Day as Scottish Premier League rules do not allow for players to be both registered and play on the first day of the new transfer window.

He will instead be aiming to face Clyde at Broadwood Stadium in the Scottish Cup third round the following weekend." bbc quote from RK article

I can't see any mention of either the £22,500 wage limit, or of the quote from Peter Lawwell, so I've amended the article to reflect what the BBC article actually says.--TheMadTim 19:11, 10 April 2006 (UTC)


What a mess!

This article used to be readable but so many people with their own agendas have stuck sentences in all over the place that it's all over ther shop. There are references to Haaland everywhere, you could nearly be forgiven for thinking it was an article about Haaland himself. Perhaps Haaland needs his own section. Also, the past 10 months of his career have loads of text and the first 12 years are talked through very quickly. This is kind of lopsided.

The thing needs total reorganisation and cleaning up. Should I put in a clean up tag?

[edit] Roy Keane, PhD?

The PhD letters after his name look a bit daft. Even though he's got a honorary doctorate, it looks like trying to make him out to be something he's not. He's a professional footballer (and a damn fine one), not a scientist or expert historian or something.

I whole heartedly agree with that sentiment. Looks like someone removed it anyway.

[edit] POV

"During his time at United, Keane was widely regarded as one of the finest midfield players of his generation" "He is commonly held as one of the finest central midfielders to have played the game."


Commonly held by whom? The only quotes are from British players/managers and as Ireland never really preformed on the World or European stage as much as other people who play in the same role how can he be considered the finest to have played the game? Shouldn't that be the "to have played the game in England/Britain"?

--ptegan

From this article "Dutch manager Louis van Gaal was so impressed by Keane's performances that he nominated the Corkman for FIFA World Player of the Year."

ptegan, I think you make a good point re: POV. I believe though it is a widely held POV by the football community, as opposed to the POV of the article contibutors. I think the comments should stay.--Downunda 06:02, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] GA nomination

Not sure what's going on here - comments on nomination page imply this is on hold and that changes have been made to answer 'concerns raised on talk page'. However, can't see anything here relating to those comments. Anyway - will be assessing this over the next half hour or so, so watch this space........ 4u1e 23:49, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Going through the categories one by one:

Images: The picture seems to have the wrong copyright tag - it's an image of a DVD cover taken from the website that sells it, no? Surely the owner of copyright hasn't released all rights to it? Website (Hart Sharp Video) says all rights reserved. My belief is that you can't use this image here, but by all means consult someone more expert than me. 4u1e 23:58, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Stability: Good - no major changes over the last week. 4u1e 23:59, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Factually accurate and verifiable: I've no reason to argue with the accuracy of the article. References have been given, but only the very barest bones. Inline citation would be better, but is not strictly required here. Even then, these references are borderline acceptable, because the references consist only of a listing of the books, with no indication of where within the books the information is located. This is particularly important because of the various controversies covered in the article, how is the reader to know whose views are being represented? See Wikipedia:Citing_sources for better ways to do it, but I suppose (reluctantly) it can't be failed for this. 4u1e 00:09, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

After further reading, I've got more worries about this - Ferguson's statement in November 2005 that he "wouldn't predict" on Keane's management future at United can't have come from the hardcopy references, which pre-date it, and it's not cited elsewhere. 4u1e 00:37, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Broad coverage: Seems to cover everything - except his personal life (family, early life etc). However, the criterion here is broad, not comprehensive, so that's OK. 4u1e 00:16, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Well written: Structure's fine. Style looks OK - although Weasel words appear in a few places. Writing's mostly good, but occasionally clumsy or redundant: "Many say if it wasn't for Forest, Roy Keane may have never made it to the big time had Brian Clough not signed him as a pro, as he went from semi-pro to one of the most sucesssful players in English football."

The 'Many say' would be a good example of weasel words, by the way. Who said? 4u1e 01:13, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Too many single or double sentence paragraphs, I'm afraid. Only break a para when moving from one topic to another - I reckon the number of paragraphs here can usefully be cut by about two thirds. For example, the section on popular culture should be three paras at most - one on The Roykeaneiad, one on I, Keano and one on Morrisey's album. 4u1e 00:28, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Neutral Point of View: Spotted one fan-ism: "he played on as valiant as ever and got his team through", and the lack of full citation makes me wonder how neutral the rest of the article really is. He's a controversial man, after all. 4u1e 00:37, 13 August 2006 (UTC)


Overall: That image needs either removing or a more convincing case for it's copyright made and the writing needs polishing up in line with comments above - particularly the arrangement of the paragraphs. What really worries me though is the citation in a biography of such a controversial man. I suspect the article is slightly pro-Keane, rather than neutral. A more comprehensive approach to citation would make a much more convincing case. For all of those reasons, I'm going for a fail - the image and the writing can be fixed quite quickly, the citation may take longer, but given that the editors have copies of the books listed, should be easy enough. Cheers. 4u1e 00:46, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] League games

I quote from Template talk:Infobox Football biography:

  • {{{caps(goals)}}} — A <br /> delimited list of appearances and (goals) that the player has been awarded in league competition only for each professional club.

Roy Keane played 326 matches and scored 33 goals in the Premiership, according to the Sky Sports Yearbook, Soccerbase and just about every other reliable source. The number 481 (51) which keeps resurfacing in the article includes cup games, European games, Charity Shield etc. However, the guidelines for the infobox clearly states league games only, so I'm changing it back. Again. --Badmotorfinger 17:26, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Does this book exist?

I am not able to find reference to this book outside of Wikipedia and its mirror sites. It was originally listed with an invalid ISBN. Can someone provide more information? Thanks. Keesiewonder talk 10:54, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

  • Trevor Durning (2002). The Boy Roy is a turncoat. New Ireland Books. 

[edit] GREATEST PLAYER EVER

People say that of recent years Zinedine Zidane has been the greatest player of the game (soccer, football) but i strongly believe that Roy Keane has been. In the occasions where the 2 have met and played against eachother Roy Keane has been the overall winner on every occasion. Whoever disagrees must be either lying, blind or extremley biasedRisteard B 14:46, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

I think you are getting this site mixed up with foot.ie!--Vintagekits 14:59, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
You may believe Roy Keane is the greatest of this generation, but it's just your opinion. We rely on the opinions of people who work in the field; if a player is the greatest of recent, we expect him to be touted as such by the sports press, footballers both past and present, managers and neutral fans. Roy Keane is not widely considered to be the greatest of this generation. In fact, I doubt very many Man Utd fans would claim that he was greater than Zidane. Yes, we all remember his performance against Juventus, but Zidane is widely considered to be the better player. Don't believe me? Look at this page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zinedine_Zidane#Awards.2C_honours.2C_and_appointments . Zidane is a World Cup and European Championship winner, and has a plethora of individual awards. Most significantly of all, Zidane was voted World Player of the Year three times. Kronix1986 12:20, 30 April 2007 (UTC)


I can understand that, within Ireland, the departure of Roy Keane from the Wold Cup squad must have caused a huge debate which went well beyond the scope of football. Therefore, I don't take issue with the article addressing how Keane's attack on what he saw as the incompetence of the Irish FA and Mike McCarthy was then taken up by others at home, outside of football, who had criticisms of the country's establishment in general. However, I think that the manner in which the fallout from the affair is dealt with needs to be tightened up as, at the moment, it tends to repeat itself quite a lot and is not as clear as it could be. On a seperate tack, the article also has no information about Keane's early background. These are not criticisms. It is just that I don't believe this piece, as it stands, reaches the levels of, say, the Encyclopaedia Britannica - and that, presumably, is what Wikipedia should be about. And, no, I'm not volunteering to do the work myself.

a whitfield

[edit] Saipan incident

If its just "an incident" - why does it take up more of the article than his entire Man Utd career which lasted something like 13 years? To anyone who knows nothing about him, it seems to focus too heavily on this section.

Also his managerial career, all of 9 months or so is already taking up a large chunk of the article. I believe this article should be overhauled to truly reflect his career in the right context - if someone took the standpoint of "how would it look as an obituary" when constructing a re-write you might get the right balance Seedybob2 20:31, 18 April 2007 (UTC) (big Keano fan!)

100% agreed. I deleted a chuck of commentary which really had little relevance to the article. Further tidy-up required (will try to contribute to this over coming day or two). Downunda 01:37, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Nice one Downunda - perhaps I should have suggested that if if was significant to create a Saipan incident article in its own right? Seedybob2 06:21, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
I think so, it is really cloging up this article and is probably worthy of its own page Downunda 01:46, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Born in Mayfield

Does somebody have a source for this claim? Was he born at home? As far as I know there's no hospital in Mayfield... 87.210.35.24 (talk) 14:26, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
Probably Saint Finbars. Buy his book!! Or alter to "...was born to a Mayfield home\family..."
ThisMunkey (talk) 09:34, 1 March 2008 (UTC)