Talk:Rouran

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This article is part of WikiProject China, a project to improve all China-related articles. If you would like to help improve this and other China-related articles, please join the project. All interested editors are welcome.
??? This article has not yet received a rating on the quality scale.
More information about this article...

Ktsquare, why did you remove (柔然) from the article? -- Zestauferov

It was a mistake, fixed now. kt2 15:34, 29 Sep 2003 (UTC)

The article states that 'the derogatory term Juan Juan (wg) or Ruan Ruan (py) (蠕蠕 lit. meaning "Wriggling insects") and Ru Ru (茹茹 lit. meaning "Fodder") remained in modern usage despite being derived by Emperor Taiwu of Northern Wei who waged war against and intended to intimidate the confederacy.'

Is there any need to retain 'Juan Juan' as the location of the main article? Would it not be preferable to move the main article to 'Rouran (柔然)', which appears to be closer to the name they used for themselves -- with redirects, of course. I don't know how acceptable this would be to historians who are attached to familiar terms, but in a modern age where derogatory names for any race are frowned upon, surely it is better to show a little respect for a group of bygone people!

Bathrobe

moved. I.H.S.V. (talk) 21:23, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Evidence

This article makes some odd claims. For instance,

"(Pinyin: 蠕蠕 lit. meaning "Wriggling insects")"

It is trivial, but strictly speaking it does not. No big deal because it is close enough.

"one of their member tribes, the Hua (who they placed, at the head of the Uighurs in 460), later appeared in Europe as the Eurasian Avars, the gross oversimplification that they were synonymous with the Avars has become widespread."

But this is a problem. What is the evidence that (a) the Hua were one of their member tribes, that (b) they were placed at the head of the Uyghurs, and (c) that the Hua and Hua alone formed the Avars? Of course the Turks claimed that the Avars were their slaves so it is one of the few documented links between China and Europe.

"Some scholars claim that the Korean pronunciation Yuyon is a more archaic form and hence closer to the original pronunciation."

Can anyone name a scholar who makes this claim? I'll accept anyone in English, Chinese, Korean, German or Japanese. I'll even struggle through some French if need be.

"Little is known of their ruling elite, which the Weishu cited as an offshoot of the Xianbei."

Actually it doesn't. It says they are an offshoot of the Donghu (the Xianbei also being an offshoot of the Donghu, the difference is not big).

"Though they admitted the Asena into their federation,"

Evidence of this claim? Anyone? As above. Lao Wai 13:50, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

I recommend you to ask User:Zestauferov, who added quite a lot of the Hua information. I.H.S.V. (talk) 05:58, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
I know some answers. The Encyclopaedia Britanica 1951 edition entry under "Turk" mentions that the Asena disliking the rule of the Wei sought protection under the Juan Juan Federation in 433 until 545. Kaz 01:53, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
Oh! Also I know that Modern Chinese pronunciation is not a trustworthy guide to the sounds used long ago, but that a reconstruction technique looking at dialects like Amoy, and the fossilizations in Hiragana and Hangeul are the best guides to reconstructiong the earliest possible sounds in proto-sinitic used by Liu Qiyu. Hiragana reflects the sounds of the Chinese Characters in the 5th century, and Hangeul reflect their sounds in the 15th century. I learned all this from different articles on Wikipedia.Kaz 01:53, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
P.S. If you want to help in the Avar-Turk-Uighur-Rouran-Hua problem then please join in below. So far I have not been able to find any reference that the Uighur even existed until some time after the Rouran, so Mr Lao if you have some knowledge please share below. Kaz 01:58, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] more information including list of rulers

http://www.chinaknowledge.de/History/Altera/rouran.html

[edit] Hua - Link

First paragraph: "Because one of their member tribes, the Hua (who they placed at the head of the Uyghurs in 460) later appeared in Europe as the Eurasian Avars," The word 'Hua' was linked to the disambiguation page of 'Hua', where you can read:

"Hua is:

     the self designation (endonymic ethnicon) used by the Hephthalites"

This is obviously a contradiction. Also the other points of the disambiguation page contain no reference to the Avars. The Hephtalites may have called themselves 'Hua', but that has nothing to do with the Avar-Hua of this 'Rouran' article. At least there is no explanation about a connection between Hephtalite-Hua, Avar-Hua and Rouran, and the link to the article about the Avar-Hua is lacking anyway.

I would advise to not just place links wildly, but instead to look up first, whereto the links would lead. Because of this contradiction I have deleted the link of the word 'Hua'. Somebody might clear this up and then relink the word. 15:54, 30 May 2006 62.178.78.205

Well, I know that the Uar were the ethnic majority of the Hephthalite confederacy, and Enoki identified these as the Hua, but as for the very confusing JuanJuan/Avars/Uighur/Hephthalite connections which are all over the internet, the sources for this are elusive. http://www.hostkingdom.net/siberia.html mentions Avar rulers names which look chinese, but none of them appear to be on the list. Maybe this man knows something?

A-na-kuei..........................................522-552
K'u-t'i............................................552-554
An-lo-ch'en........................................554- ? with ?, preceding ?

Can anyone work out what these names refer to? Anlushan led a rebellion in 755 AD so "An-lo-ch'en" can not be him. Kaz 22:46, 31 August 2006 (UTC)