User talk:Robertgreer/Archive 1

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[edit] Speedy deletion

[edit] Speedy deletion of Children's Dance Theatre

A tag has been placed on Children's Dance Theatre, requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia per CSD A7. Under the criteria for speedy deletion, articles that do not meet basic Wikipedia criteria may be deleted at any time. Please see the guidelines for what is generally accepted as an appropriate article, and if you can indicate why the subject of this article is appropriate, you may contest the tagging. To do this, add {{hangon}} on the top of the article and leave a note on the article's talk page explaining your position. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the article that would confirm its subject's notability under the guidelines. If you think that this notice was placed here in error, you may contest the deletion. To do this, add {{hangon}} on the top of the page (just below the existing speedy deletion or "db" tag) and leave a note on the page's talk page explaining your position. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself. — WebHamster 18:03, 11 October 2007 (UTC)<!— Template:Db-csd-notice —> A tag has been placed on Children's Dance Theatre, requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done because the article appears to be a repost of material that was previously deleted following a deletion debate, such as articles for deletion. If you can indicate how Children's Dance Theatre is different from the previously posted material, or if you can indicate why this article should not be deleted, I advise you to place the template {{hangon}} underneath the other template on the article, and also put a note on Talk:Children's Dance Theatre saying why this article should stay. An admin should check for such edits before deleting the article. Feel free to leave a note on my talk page if you have any questions about this. Please read our criteria for speedy deletion, particularly item 4 under General criteria. If you believe the original discussion was unjustified, please feel free to use deletion review, but do not continue to repost the article if it is deleted. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself. We welcome your help in trying to improve Wikipedia, and we request you to follow these instructions. <!— Template: Uw-repost —> ffm 22:57, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] cross-posted from ff

This is not a private dance school posting a puff piece: Children's Dance Theatre is operated by the University of Utah. The company's founder, Virginia Tanner, received funding from the Rockefeller Foundation for the adult dance company, Utah Repertory Dance Theatre, which Children's Dance Theatre serves as a feeder to. She was also founder and director of the highly regarded dance department at University of Utah as is explained in her own Wikipedia entry (which is hyperlinked from the previously deleted page.) The Children's Dance Theatre is a rare, if not unique, dance company operated by a major university that has been training children to perform contemporary dance on adult level for over fifty years; its alumni are a who's who in the modern dance world. The article included a short list of same; you may not be familiar with these people or the companies for which they danced (or ran) but that is scarcely grounds to ask the entry's deletion. Would you approve of the deletion of an entry about John Quincy Adams proposed by a person who was unaware that Adams was a president of the United States? I do not propose that a contemporary dance company is as important as a president of the US though there are several nineteenth century presidents for whom I might entertain the thought. There mere fact that a professional calibre contemporary dance company composed of children could be nearing its sixtieth year is remarkable; this is approximately the same age as New York City Ballet or American Ballet Theatre, and I should hope their entries would not be deleted! The external link is to a webpage at UTAH.EDU which I reproduce in part; it includes fourteen hyperlinks, the last of which is to a list of major performances dating back to 1952. I reproduce the list at the bottom of this note, and quote from elsewhere on that page: www.tannerdance.utah.edu/cdt/cdtperf.html

Please note that the website and e-mail address are all .EDU (private or commercial dance schools do not qualify for .EDU suffixes.) Please note as well that they have performed at Jacob's Pillow in Massachusetts and the Kennedy Center in Washington. Robert Greer (talk)

"Children's Dance Theatre - This company of young dancers, ages eight to eighteen, shares its performances annually with more than 45,000 Utahns. Every spring, the company showcases an original work at the Capitol Theatre in Salt Lake City. CDT is the second oldest performing arts organization in Utah and performs regularly under the auspices of the Utah Arts Council’s Performing Arts Tour ..."

University of Utah - Virginia Tanner Creative Dance Children's Dance Theatre

Children’s Dance Theatre (CDT) is the performing arm of the University of Utah Virginia Tanner Creative Dance Program. The company was established in 1949 by Virginia Tanner. Since 1979, under the artistic direction of Mary Ann Lee, the company has continued to grow in size and programming, resulting in continued state, national and international recognition. During February 2000, a major goal was realized when the program became a part of the University's Department of Modern Dance in the College of Fine Arts.

Virginia Tanner Creative Dance Program 1901 E South Campus Dr. SLC UT 84112-9359 Voice (801)581-7374, Fax (801)581-4091, University of Utah Please send comments to <tannerdance@utah.edu>

[edit] Reply to your comments on my talk page

I am not saying it is worthless or that it is unimportant, the article was simply written like an advert for the theater and not like an encyclopedia article. ffm 23:42, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Speedy deletion of Linda C. Smith

A tag has been placed on Linda C. Smith, requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia per CSD A1. Under the criteria for speedy deletion, articles that do not meet basic Wikipedia criteria may be deleted at any time. Please see the guidelines for what is generally accepted as an appropriate article, and if you can indicate why the subject of this article is appropriate, you may contest the tagging. To do this, add {{hangon}} on the top of the article and leave a note on the article's talk page explaining your position. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the article that would confirm its subject's notability under the guidelines. If you think that this notice was placed here in error, you may contest the deletion. To do this, add {{hangon}} on the top of the page (just below the existing speedy deletion or "db" tag) and leave a note on the page's talk page explaining your position. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself. ForeverDEAD 20:06, 21 October 2007 (UTC)<!— Template:Db-csd-notice —>

[edit] Speedy deletion of Bill Evans Dance

A tag has been placed on Bill Evans Dance, requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia per CSD A1. Under the criteria for speedy deletion, articles that do not meet basic Wikipedia criteria may be deleted at any time. Please see the guidelines for what is generally accepted as an appropriate article, and if you can indicate why the subject of this article is appropriate, you may contest the tagging. To do this, add {{hangon}} on the top of the article and leave a note on the article's talk page explaining your position. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the article that would confirm its subject's notability under the guidelines. If you think that this notice was placed here in error, you may contest the deletion. To do this, add {{hangon}} on the top of the page (just below the existing speedy deletion or "db" tag) and leave a note on the page's talk page explaining your position. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself. Hazel77 20:29, 21 October 2007 (UTC)<!— Template:Db-csd-notice —>

[edit] Proposed deletion of The Chairman Dances

A proposed deletion template has been added to the article The Chairman Dances (ballet), suggesting that it be deleted according to the proposed deletion process. All contributions are appreciated, but this article may not satisfy Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion, and the deletion notice should explain why (see also "What Wikipedia is not" and Wikipedia's deletion policy). You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{dated prod}} notice, but please explain why you disagree with the proposed deletion in your edit summary or on its talk page.

Please consider improving the article to address the issues raised because even though removing the deletion notice will prevent deletion through the proposed deletion process, the article may still be deleted if it matches any of the speedy deletion criteria or it can be sent to Articles for Deletion, where it may be deleted if consensus to delete is reached. Do you want to opt out of receiving this notice? <3 Tinkleheimer TALK!! 07:39, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] CorenSearchBot is in error

[edit] Jason Fowler (dancer)

This is an automated message from CorenSearchBot. I have performed a web search with the contents of Jason Fowler (dancer), and it appears to include a substantial copy of http://www.nycballet.com/company/personnel/artistic/fowler.html. For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or printed material; such additions will be deleted. You may use external websites as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences.

This message was placed automatically, and it is possible that the bot is confused and found similarity where none actually exists. If that is the case, you can remove the tag from the article and it would be appreciated if you could drop a note on the maintainer's talk page. CorenSearchBot (talk) 05:08, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Cross posted from Talk:Jason Fowler (dancer): CorenSearchBot is in error

The body of the text is my own wording, not that of NYCB. CorenSearchBot has perhaps been triggered by the list of Fowler's performances, which is longer than the narrative (he is a relatively young dancer and there isn't that much to say about him other than what he's danced.) The list is shorter than that on NYCBallet.com but as a subset would catch the attention of a bot. Generally I have written about ballets and not ballet dancers — I did so in this case to complete the entries about the cast of In Vento — but no bot has ever flagged an entry of mine before for plagiarism. If this entry is felt to be questionable, feel free to delete it as I have no desire to be accused (rightly or wrongly!) of plagiarism. — Robert Greer 05:29, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Cross posted from Lucasbfr talk page

Thank you for clearing my good (?) name with respect to Jason Fowler! — Robert Greer (talk) 15:06, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Beethoven Romance

This is an automated message from CorenSearchBot. I have performed a web search with the contents of Beethoven Romance, and it appears to include a substantial copy of http://www.nycballet.com/company/rep.html?rep=28. For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or printed material; such additions will be deleted. You may use external websites as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences.

This message was placed automatically, and it is possible that the bot is confused and found similarity where none actually exists. If that is the case, you can remove the tag from the article and it would be appreciated if you could drop a note on the maintainer's talk page. CorenSearchBot (talk) 17:51, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Cross posted from Revision history of Beethoven Romance

This was saved partially completed (just begun) when keyboard — but not mouse — on PC failed — is work in progress. — Robert Greer (talk)

[edit] CfD nomination of Category:Ballets by Susan Stroman

I have nominated Category:Ballets by Susan Stroman (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) for deletion. Your opinions on the matter are welcome; please participate in the discussion by adding your comments at the discussion page. Thank you. emerson7 13:50, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] LOL!

I live in Boston, so that doesn't help me now, but if I ever move to New York, I'll keep that in mind. J-ſtanTalkContribs 01:50, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] New York Ballet [sic]

The New York City Ballet's schedule isn't encyclopedic, but more suitable for their website. Can you please remove the information? Encyclopedias aren't the places people go to find out "what's happening" at a venue. —David Shankbone 14:41, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Agreed; I was in the process of replacing the current season rep. with their repertory of all ballets as your message arrived. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Robertgreer 15:06, 1 November 2007 (UTC) [to Shankbone's discussion page; it is being crossposted here for the sake of completeness.] — Robert Greer (talk)

[edit] New York City Ballet

Could I ask that we discuss the NYCB entry before you remove things? The list you removed links to entries for the ballets in their repertory. NYCB has the largest rep. of any dance company in the world, so the list is long. I have discussed with scholars, ballet teachers (of a very high level) and choreographers what they think would be most useful on Wikipedia and modelled this entry on their suggestions. If the restoration of the rep. section is not acceptable to you, I've noticed that there is a seperate category of lists; might I move this to a seperate list and use a SEE ALSO section to connect to it (without worrying that it will be summarily deleted)? — Robert Greer (talk) 18:00, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

The problem on New York City Ballet is we have one short paragraph of history, and a gargantuan amount of lists. What you should do is form something like Category:New York City Ballet Repertory. You could also write a paragraph on them being a largest repertory. But a list, in and of itself, is not particularly notable, unwieldy, and too long. —David Shankbone 18:22, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
Cross posted from User talk:David Shankbone/Archive 8#New_York_City_Ballet

[edit] Incorrect application of "Featured article" templates

Greetings. I notice that you've added the "This is a featured article in the [...] Wikipedia" message to a large number of articles. I've gone through your edits and it turns out that none of these articles had been graded as such on the relevant wikipedias. Being a Featured article requires that the article in question must live up to a specific list of requirements, and very few articles reach this rank at all. E.g. the English Wikipedia has 2 million articles but less than 2,000 of them have been graded as Featured Articles, and the entire list of all Featured Articles on the Swedish Wikipedia is here, as you see, it is a very short list, and the Danish Wikipedia doesn't even award this grade at all. The template in question is not intended to be used simply to show that another Wikipedia has a longer article on the subject. It is intended to be used exclusively for articles that have been assessed as having the highest encyclopedic quality by their respective Wikipedias.

I've cleaned up your edits, but please don't use this template again unless you are 100% sure that an article has indeed been graded as FA on another wikipedia. Have a nice day. Valentinian T / C 11:27, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

My incorrect — and accidental — use of FA template
I am very sorry; I've never knowingly applied the FA template to anything! If I did so by accident I thank you for taking the trouble to remove it. The only templates I wittingly apply are those for the WikiProjects Ballet, Dance, Echo, Swedish, Norwegian and Danish. My apologies and thank you again for cleaning up the mess I made.
On further examination I believe that you may have mistaken the WikiProject Echo markup {{FAOL|language name|article name}} for that of a Featured Article; did you perhaps do a global search or find and replace just on the letters FA?
I believe that you were mistaken.
The first example I find of your editing out what you took to be unauthorized use of a Featured Article markup is in the article on the Swedish poet, playwright and member of the Swedish Academy, Kristina Lugn. The order in which you altered the relevant talk pages may be different than the order in my "contributions" list, as I made some slight changes to the Lugn entry more recently than her discussion. In any event, you replaced:
{{WikiProject Sweden}} {{WikiProject Theatre}} {{FAOL|Swedish|sv:Kristina Lugn}
with:
{{WikiProject Sweden}} {{WikiProject Theatre}}
FAOL is in fact a WikiProject Echo template, not a Featured Article. May I ask that you undo this and any other FAOLs you removed?
I've not made any of the edits you suggest. WikiProject ECHO is/was a project that created notifications to editors to allow them to easily locate articles of the highest encyclopedic quality on other Wikipedias. This template was applied to a number of articles that did not live up to these (rather strict) quality criteria. Project banners that merely serve as "advertisement" for different projects (Project Ballet e.g.) doesn't constitute a problem, so I let them be. But the FAOL template cannot be compared to the mere "advertisement" banners. I've posted a more detailed reply on my talk page. Valentinian T / C 15:50, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
Mea maxima culpa! I misunderstood your original message to be referring to the Featured Articles that appear on Wikipedia's Main Page; and, upon closer reading, misunderstood as well Wikiproject Echo's intended use of [[en:PAGETITLE]] vs. {{FAOL|language name|article name}}; it is the former I should've been using. In my own defense I can only say I wish that Wikiproject Echo had a bit clearer instructions with respect to points 1(c), 1(e), 1.1 and 1.2 but this is a poor excuse for the work I put you to. I will religiously use [[en:PAGETITLE]] and [[dk:PAGETITLE]] etc. in the future.
No harm done and it was pretty easy to fix. I've seen things that were much much worse. But yes, the interwiki links is the tool you are looking for. Happy editing. Valentinian T / C 23:46, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
BTW the standard practice for interwiki links is to simply add them to the bottom of the articles rather than to the "See also" sections. They are normally listed alphabetically after the "Categories" coding. See e.g. George I of Greece for a good example of how this is done. The interwiki links is the list beginning with :: [[ca:Jordi I de Grècia]] :: [[da:Georg 1. af Grækenland]] :: [[de:Georg I. (Griechenland)]] :: [[et:Geórgios I]] :: [[el:Γεώργιος Α΄ της Ελλάδας]] :: [[es:Jorge I de Grecia]] :: (etc) Valentinian T / C 23:56, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
Thank you!
PS It appears that the notation should be [[:da:Tim Rushton]] with a leading colon, rather than [[da:Tim Rushton]]; this according to Interwiki; see the paragraph ending ... and [[:de:InterWiki]] (former syntax: [[DeWikipedia:InterWiki]]) appears as de:InterWiki. There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding of this change in the form of two letter language markups followed by a colon but lacking the leading one. And these invalid codes do not show up at all unless you happen to be editing the entire page — or the last section — not if you're editing an earlier section as would most often be the case!
Yes and no. The reason why you sometimes see the notation with the leading colon is because the colon deactivates the actual interwiki link. This allows editors to mention links in debates and similar without actually activating them on pages where they don't naturally belong. But when you need the link to actually work (at the bottom of an article) you need to write it without the leading colon. Valentinian T / C 16:11, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
I just noticed your edit to Tim Rushton. Adding the interwiki link with the preceding colon creates a duplicate list of links at the bottom of the page (both in the box at the bottom-left corner of your screen and at the bottom of the actual article), but this is not standard Wikipedia practice. Please use the notation mentioned at the last paragraph of Interwiki#Notations, i.e. without the preceding colon. Valentinian T / C 16:25, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
Just det, tusen tack!

[edit] Romeo + Juliet (ballet)

Sorry for my premature removal of your link to the ballet, now that I understand such a ballet really exists of course the line is fine. Does the fact that the ballet is being called Romeo + Juliet (as opposed to Romeo AND Juliet) indicate some similarity to Luhrman's film version? Capmango (talk) 04:12, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Notability of Romeo and Juliet (Lavery)

Hello, this is a message from an automated bot. A tag has been placed on Romeo and Juliet (Lavery), by another Wikipedia user, requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. The tag claims that it should be speedily deleted because Romeo and Juliet (Lavery) seems to be about a person, group of people, band, club, company, or web content, but it does not indicate how or why the subject is notable: that is, why an article about that subject should be included in an encyclopedia. Under the criteria for speedy deletion, articles that do not assert the subject's importance or significance may be deleted at any time. Please see the guidelines for what is generally accepted as notable.

To contest the tagging and request that administrators wait before possibly deleting Romeo and Juliet (Lavery), please affix the template {{hangon}} to the page, and put a note on its talk page. If the article has already been deleted, see the advice and instructions at WP:WMD. Feel free to contact the bot operator if you have any questions about this or any problems with this bot, bearing in mind that this bot is only informing you of the nomination for speedy deletion; it does not perform any nominations or deletions itself. To see the user who deleted the page, click here CSDWarnBot (talk) 22:02, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Now upgrade it. What it needs most is reference to two reviews—there must have been some. Also consider the title— should it be (Lavery ballet) or something of the sort. DGG (talk) 23:17, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
Done (more to follow). — Robert Greer (talk) 23:02, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Your recent edits

Hi there. In case you didn't know, when you add content to talk pages and Wikipedia pages that have open discussion, you should sign your posts by typing four tildes ( ~~~~ ) at the end of your comment. On many keyboards, the tilde is entered by holding the Shift key, and pressing the key with the tilde pictured. You may also click on the signature button Image:Wikisigbutton.png located above the edit window. This will automatically insert a signature with your name and the time you posted the comment. This information is useful because other editors will be able to tell who said what, and when. Thank you!<!— Template:Tilde —> —SineBot 22:34, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

TWIMC As I always log in my signature is always appended automatically; I have forgotten to log in once, precisely once! That was at 12:46, October 15, 2007 from 198.83.124.253. The latter is the IP for my place of work, Borough of Manhattan Community College (City University of New York). — Robert Greer (talk)

[edit] Tributary (disambiguation)

IAW usage guidelines on Wikipedia:Disambiguation please stop piping the links on the above page to your ballet page. If there is a practical reason for deviating from the above policy, please state it here. Gjs238 (talk) 11:19, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Henvisninger til andre sprog

Hej Robert, interwiki-links skal skrives på formen [[en:Link]], hvorved de automatisk vises ude til venstre under "andre sprog", og de må ikke gentages. - Kåre Thor Olsen (Kaare) 10. nov 2007, 02:03 (CET)

[edit] Your ballet articles crossposted to and from User talk:Atavi

Hello Robertgreer. I've got some reservations about some ballet articles you have created. This started when I noticed you added a note to the article Romeo and Juliet (Prokofiev) about Romeo + Juliet (ballet). I have an issue with the latter, in that there doesn't seem to be anything to signify that this is anything other than a production of the original. I am implying that perhaps a separate article is not warranted.

With this as as starting point I took a look at your contributions; one other thing I noticed was the Les noces thing. You created an article titled Les Noces (ballet). I took the liberty of moving the article to Les Noces (Robbins), as I thought that the title was confusing. I haven't decided what to do yet with the Les Noces (ballet) article, which currently redirects to the Robbins article, but perhaps it shouldn't. Also, the same issue I have with Romeo + Juliet (ballet) applies here too: does it warrant a separate article? perhaps a note in the article Les noces will do.

I am usually an "inclusionist" and I am by no means not an expert on ballet. So I haven't tagged the articles for deletion. But I do have my doubts and urge you to consider adding material to the two articles and any similar articles in order to establish the identity or notability, if you will, of the subject matter.

Regards, —Atavi 12:05, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

PS:I hope you have not taken offense at anything I've written or done. If so, I apologize in advance.—Atavi 12:07, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
No offense taken, your suggestions (and tact) are appreciated, and I will explain. But first, I will go you one better and move Les Noces (Robbins) to Les Noces (Robbins ballet); this manner of naming was suggested by a Wikipedia administrator who's a graduate librarian from Rutgers and graciously saved a ballet stub I created from premature deletion.
The ballet articles I've created have mainly to do with New York City Ballet, which I attend regularly. Too regularly, but it's a cheap thrill at $15 a seat; make it a date for $30. Here's the rub: there are fewer than a dozen people writing about ballet on Wikipedia, City Ballet is the largest company in the U.S. and has the largest rep. of any company in the world.
Their active rep. is over a hundred ballets, so it's a juggling act; write more about fewer ballets or less about more? In the beginning I've opted for the latter, though I know it's contrary to the general Wikipedia mindset. Here's why:
(1) If there are any latent writers of Wikipedia ballet articles perhaps these stubs (which I've meticuluously categorized and marked on their discussion pages as part of Wikipedia:WikiProject Ballet) they might act as a honey pot and get somebody else to expand upon them.
(2) George Balanchine, the (co)founder of City Ballet, had the humility to subordinate the dance to the music; then again his regular collaborator was Igor Stravinsky. Balanchine was a superb musician in his own right, having studied piano in conservatory the same time he was learning to dance (and even played for ballet classes before graduating). He occasionally conducted orchestra rehearsals at City Ballet (only in case of illness on the part of the scheduled conductor) but according to all reports could perfectly well have conducted the performances. Here's where Wiki. comes in; out of respect for the music he gave most of his works the title of the music. This does not make the encyclopedist's life any the easier. just for Tschaikovsky (this is the way Mr. B. and City Ballet spell it) one has:
Tschaikovsky Pas de Deux
Tschaikovsky Pas de Quatre
Tschaikovsky Piano Concerto No. 2
Tschaikovsky Suite No. 1
Tschaikovsky Suite No. 2
Tschaikovsky Suite No. 3
These are not the only works of Tschaikovsky to which he made dances, just those that begin with the composer's name. Then one has:
Symphonic Dances
Symphonie Concertante
Symphony in C
Symphony in E Flat
Symphony in Three Movements
Symphony No. 1
Symphony No. 6 Pathetique
The result is a lot of disambiguation — hence Les Noces (Robbins ballet) — etc. And because of sniping from some very tactless, seemingly ignorant — and seemingly unaware of their own ignorance — Wiki. users it became imperative to post at least stubs for those that were ambiguously titled.
(3) Are any of Balanchine's ballets insignificant? Not any of those that are still being danced; the Balanchine Foundation has on staff a dozen or so répétiteurs, former principal dancers who danced the ballets, usually under Mr. B. himself, know all the roles and the interpretations. Ballet companies other than City Ballet — which maintains an unbroken Balanchine tradition the way that the Royal Danish Ballet maintains Bournonville — interestingly Nikolaj Hübbe will leave NYCB and return to Copenhagen as ballet master — must bring in a repetiteur (the foundation dispenses with the French diacriticals, while retaining the s of Tschaikovsky) to obtaining performing rights.
(4) Are any of Balanchine's successors' ballets insignificant? None of those made by John Taras or Jerome Robbins that are still being danced; it's a bit more difficult to say for current ballet master in chief Peter Martins or choregrapher in residence Christopher Wheeldon; but Wikipedia's guiding principles however say that we should remain wholly objective and withhold judgement!
Personally, I could leave out a dozen or so dances in City Ballet's rep. that aren't as significant as the rest, but this would be untrue to Wiki. Objectively speaking, any ballet being danced by the largest ballet company in the US, founded by the most important choreographer of the XX century, is significant — whether I like it or not. Certainly more significant than my namesake Mark Greer — we are not related — a school district bandmaster from Michigan whom is the subject of an article being drafted by an ignoramus who suggested deleting the page which the ex-Rutgers librarian so gallantly saved (see Talk:Romeo and Juliet (Lavery ballet).)
(5) Is it possible to imbed City Ballet — or other modern ballet — entries in existing music or dance entries? I tried and immediately found them being deleted by people who from all appearances knew nothing about dance (see Revision history of Afternoon of a Faun (ballet); this I did not even try to reverse, the vandal not having loggged in and looking at the I.P. from which they came it being clear that they could not be talked to sensibly.)
There is too much work to be done (whether writing more about each ballet or writing about more ballets) to get engaged in undo or edit wars or lengthy arguments (this is a particular and peculiar exception because you are the most thoughtful correspondent I've encountered.)
(6) A future problem will be the growth of the ballet stubs in to full size articles and not necessarily of the sort that Wiki. editors and administrators admire. I've discussed this with choreographers, ballet masters, repetiteurs, (major) ballet teachers, dancers with both major ballet companies as well as other companies here and in Northern Europe, and the concencus is that cast lists and lists of ballets in the rep. are the most important articles to the dance world.
We can all look up in the NY Times who danced it on opening night, but what about the second cast? The third? What about last minute cast changes (often due to injury; except for concussions ballet is right up there with football)? As my high school journalism teacher would've asked, who danced what with whom and when and where?
At this point the tail will be wagging the dog, and somebody or other will go and delete everything to do with the Robbins' Les Noces about the time I add the third cast of the fourth revival (see item 5, paragraph 2.) But this is exactly the information that my friends in the professional dance world consider most important and yet, without the facilities of Wikipedia, most ephemeral.
(6) Romeo + Juliet (ballet) was Peter Martins' major re-thinking of the Prokofiev score. (The music is a given in ballet, this being I suspect one reason that some contemporary dancers try to dance without music; as a theatre guy I have no problem being in an interpretive art form, but some of the modern dance choreographers don't see it that way.) But the fact that a piece of music has had a ballet made to it does not mean that all other, later dances are less important (in fact many of what we think of as canonical ballets are themselves the second or third settings of the music!) Ballet, unlike the opera, is not a museum art form (make that mausoleum.) It's alive and well:
If one Googles "Les noces" Nijinska one finds 16,300 "hits"; if one Googles "Les noces" Robbins one finds 37,300 "hits"!
(9) Finally, do I know whereof I speak? I am a member of the Society of Stage Directors and Choreographers and Actors' Equity Association, am a full-time faculty member at City University of New York, am a former singer with the Boston Symphony Orchestra and Tanglewood Festival Chorus (sang for Bernstein, Ozawa, Colin Davis, Klaus Tennstedt), have received grants fromt the Danish government to translate some of the plays I've directed (I speak fluent Swedish — have directed their best playwrights' works, Kristina Lugn among them — less than fluent Norwegian as well and do a little inter-Wiki editing; Wikipedia:WikiProject Echo, Danish Dance Theatre), and perhaps most significantly have taken ballet class for twenty years with David Howard (who teaches much of American Ballet Theatre), Willy Burman (ditto City Ballet), Nancy Bielski (any of the ABT or NYCB dancers who don't take with David or Willy) and David's three proteges; Peter Schabel, Paul Estabrook and Alex Tressor, who patiently taught me as a much-too-old beginner and got me up to taking professional class, even if I don't quite belong there; were I unaware of this fact I would not have any business taking the 10 a.m. class.)
Why am I spending any time at all — far too much time — documenting neo-classical and contemporary ballet (and a little Scandinavian modern dance) on Wikipedia? Because it won't get documented otherwise. The alternative is to set up a dance website, Wiki or other, but to do so would be to re-invent the wheel, which I will do only with great reluctance if Wikipedia proves too hostile.
—Preceding unsigned comment added by Robertgreer (talk • contribs) <!— Template:Unsigned —>
Robertgreer, first of all I want to thank you for taking the time to provide such an enlightening reply to me. I have already said I am not a ballet expert, but I am interested in it, so your reply made quite an interesting read. I am honoured also, to discuss with a person of your expertise; of course I knew before that you knew what you're talking about — I didn't have any doubts.
To the point now: you've got me convinced. I still wish those articles could contain more material, but I'm willing to wait for it ...
All of your points were excellent, but your second (6) point was especially convincing. It made me rethink and reminded me of the different productions of Swan Lake (how original, eh...?): the original, the Petipa, the subsequent productions. The first (6) point is also compelling, and we could only get such insight from someone like you. It's good to have you on WP.
As you say, there's too much work to be done on ballet articles. I wish you well on your wikipedia expeditions. From the Wikipedia point of view, I don't think you're spending too much time on Ballet on Wikipedia; from your own point of view, you could obviously find more creative things to do and I wish there was someone else to do the work you're doing.
As a sidenote, I would just like to remind you to sign your posts for readability's sake. Also, regarding dates in wp,there are display options for dates (I'm using this feature), and having the dates written out in standard format facilitates this.
Regards,
—Atavi 12:44, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for taking the time to read what I wrote! It was useful to organize my thoughts and have a sympathetic ear for them. There will be more on each ballet, added as they are performed; but not every dance shows up every season (there are two seasons each year, winter and spring, but even so it takes time when you're dealing with hundreds!)
It's interesting you mention Swan Lake. Kenneth MacMillan and John Cranko both studied with Frederick Ashton and both made Swan Lakes. MacMillan's is the one better known in the US and probably seen more in the West nowadays than the Petipa. The Joffrey is the only major company that dances the Cranko here. Some years ago they did so for two weeks at the NY State Theater while the American Ballet Theatre was dancing it at the Metropolitan Opera House right across the Lincoln Center plaza. On nights that Makarova was Juliet I did standing room at ABT; otherwise it was the Joffrey, and the Cranko is definitely the better.
On MacMillan's side, his ballet Mayerling, based on the double suicide of the heir to the throne of the Austro-Hungarian Empire and his very young, very decadent mistress, is his masterpiece and never seen except at the Royal Ballet, London. I saw three performances in two days last year on Spring break (I'm not a rich man but can rent a room for ten pounds a night in the East End from a character actress — and a room in Stockholm for about the same from the retired professsor who was my ex-Swedish teacher's Swedish teacher.) Hence my exposure to Northern European dance. Mayerling is available on DVD (Darcy Bussell, recently retired as a principal dancer but at that time still a soloist, dances the role of Mitzy, the crown prince's ordinary mistress.) This is not The Nutcracker — boy, has that one got a complicated history — and Mayerling is decidedly not suitable viewing for children.
As this is probably the last time I will write you, allow me to confess that twenty years ago my best friend — a college schoolmate and good ballerina though she's now got an MBA and makes ten times what I do — asked me whether I wanted to meet the most beautiful women in New York. I said, "Yes," and she said, "Take ballet class." I did and haven't dated any woman since whom I have not met in class.
I always log in and count on Wiki. to auto-date my entries, a bad habit, one of my many. Robert Greer 14:32, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
As I said, it was very interesting to read what you had to say and this also goes to your whole last entry.
It's not often that I attend ballet performances. I could probably list all of the performances I've seen, which presumably you can't.:-) I certainly I wish I could see more.
At some point I think I'll incorporate the bits about Swan Lake in the article, if I can find sources.
I will probably buy Mayerling (eventually)
Best,
—Atavi 20:12, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for the tweaking and especially for restoring the Rushton / Kobburg Afternoon of a Faun! Robert Greer 21:08, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
Well, the anonymous user 82.169.148.34 who previously deleted the Rushton / Kobborg from Afternoon of a Faun has done so again with the same explanation, word for word, as before; "This article is about the NIJINSKY ballet, the many others who made choreographies for this piece of music don't belong here" (it's good to know that they have mastered copy and paste.) Don't waste your time trying to fix this or reason with them. They appear to have no knowledge of ballet, having written about Chess, the Chess World Cup 2007, Evgeny Alekseev‎, Robert Bresson‎, Elliott Carter‎, Lenier Domínguez‎, Vladimir Kramnik‎, FC Barcelona‎, Pierre Boulez, Alexander Scriabin‎, Max Blumenthal‎, Giancarlo Antognoni‎ and Indonesia‎. I am assuming that there is only one user logging on from the I.P. A conventional whois query refers one to www.ripe.net/whois which reports:
descr: www.easyw.nl
country: NL
status: ASSIGNED PA
mnt-by: WOLTECH-MNT
source: RIPE # Filtered
tech-c: SK2119-RIPE
person: Saglain Khan
address: Easyway
address: Ged. Burgwal 72
address: 2512 BV Den Haag
address: Netherlands
phone: +31 30 2483500
fax-no: +31 70 3492999
e-mail: <saglain@easyw.nl>
nic-hdl: SK2119-RIPE
remarks: send an abuse notifications ONLY to: <abuse@easyw.nl>
Saglain Khan is presumably an adminstrator for the I.S.P. and not the party responsible. Robert Greer 02:03, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I noticed myself that the user 82.169.148.34 did that. I don't have the energy for an edit war, and as you say it doesn't seem like one can discuss with this person.—Atavi (talk) 18:09, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Life's too short for edit wars. I've got twelve pair of tickets for City Ballet (grand total $380 including $20 annual membership which entitles one to half price); the first two performances in January, five at the end of the month and five more in February. And will probably buy more when they announce casting (they do so two weeks in advance). They're up in the fourth ring, oxygen mask territory, but are great seats, row F on the aisle!
Rows A and B are very nice but three times as expensive. Rows C, D and E pretty much sell out at full price to season ticket holders before the 50% discount kicks in, but row F aisle is better than any but the same seats in row D or E. A friend of mine did luck out and get single tickets at half price in D, but I'm buying a pair each night and more or less own F2 and F4.
Row A and C are very nice (as would be row A second or third ring, though I'll take row F aisle seats over row B, even in the third ring.) One must, however, reconcile ones champagne tastes with his beer budget. — Robert Greer 17:57, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
Yes, you hit the nail with the last comment. Anyway, I'm happy that you can find joy in this gift to us that ballet is.
I live somewhere where not many ballets are staged every year. So, I'm kind of envious of you. I've emailed you; I hope you don't mind—Atavi (talk) 13:09, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
Feel free to do so! — Robert Greer (talk) 10:42, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Interwikis

Hei, har tilbakestilt dine endringer. Slik du setter ned interwikis er vanlig på nynorsk, men ikke på bokmål/riksmåls-wikipedia... Her sorteres de alfabetisk, uten at de nordiske favoriseres ;) Noorse 15. nov 2007 kl. 22:58 (CET)

Tack ska ni ha! — Robertgreer (talk) 11. des 2007 kl. 14:32 (CET)

[edit] Your proposed deletion of Octet (Christensen ballet), a ballet by William Christensen (cross posted from Talk:Octet (Christensen ballet) and User talk:Manderson198)

I have been documenting New York City Ballet on Wikipedia, or trying to, for the past few months: City Ballet has the largest rep. of any ballet company in the world.

Out of respect for the composers they've worked with, Igor Stravinsky among them, their choreographers often name their dances with the title of the music. Since more than one choreographer may make a dance to the same piece of music this results in more than infrequent ambiguity, and such is the case here.

William Christensen (and his brothers) were founders of the San Francisco Ballet. William went on to found Ballet West in Salt Lake City. He choreographed the first Coppélia in the US in the thirties, the first complete Swan Lake and the first Nutcracker in the forties.

The ambiguity arises in that Peter Martins, City Ballet's current ballet master in chief, has also made a dance to the same music. If one is to post an article on Mattins' dance, fairness demands that Christensen's also be (and good housekeeping says they should be cross linked.)

You write that you appreciate music; I do so as well, having a particular interest in the intersection of dance and music, and trust that you do not hold the former against me. Robert Greer 04:13, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

PS The article is referenced to the extent that the Internet permits, NYCB's website and the University of Utah's library, the ballet predating the World Wide Web by nearly fifty years. May I refer you to various conversations concerning the pecularities of ballet on Wikipedia that you will find on my talk page?

[edit] Octet and other ballet productions

I do indeed have a profound respect for ballet and dancers in general. I was just making a note that that particular production may not be significant enough to have its own separate article (apart from the general article List of New York City Ballet repertory). I may be wrong, and am sure you have a greater knowledge of ballet than I do. I meant no disrespect, if that is what you interpreted my proposal to be.—Manderson198 (talk) 04:17, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Octet

May I ask then that you remove your request that Octet (Christensen ballet) be deleted, or that you contact a Wikipedia administrator to retract that request? User talk:DGG is a graduate librarian and Wiki. admin. whom makes a speciality of rescuing articles unjustly proposed for deletion. Robert Greer 14:25, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Prod removed

I removed the proposal for deletion. Cheers. Manderson198 (sprech) 14:41, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] DGG has alread rescued Octet

User talk:DGG is a graduate librarian and Wiki. admin. whom makes a speciality of rescuing articles unjustly proposed for deletion. In the time that I have spent undoing the damage you've caused I could have written three articles — and suggest that you might spend more time writing articles and less proposing deletion of others work in fields of which you are not knowledgable. I apologize for the ill-spirited nature of this reply but have had similar problems with other Wikipedians; you however appear to be far better educated than the rest and should therefore be held to a higher standard. Robert Greer 14:45, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

I believe I saved the article from deletion by removing my prod, DGG just suggested to you that to have a stronger notability case, reviews of the production shoiuld be added. Anyways, case closed and happy editing.—Manderson198 (sprech) 14:50, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps you did, though DGG wrote, "tag no longer needed — just add some reviews" (emphasis added). I was looking up the University of Utah information at the time that you tagged the article for deletion. Having found the reference I added that to the article but decided not to do any further work on it till the deletion issue was resolved.
This morning, case closed, I added the NY TImes review (reviews of dances made before 1981 are especially tricky to find, and dance has always been the most poorly documented of art forms.) You have thus embarassed me before the esteemed DGG (I am not writing sarcasticaslly.)
It really bothers me to be in such a bad temper during the holiday season, but you don't seem the least bit apologetic and don't seem to have learned a thing from this. Judging by the articles you've written, you may be an academic.
The first rule of academia is to stick to those disciplines in which you are competent, and you are proposing deletion of articles about which you know nothing. Wikipedia regrettably encourages such behavior and yours is assuredly not the worst.
But since you are educated, one would hope that you would hold yourself to a higher standard. Robert Greer 16:01, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

I think removing my own tag qualifies as apologetic...I removed it before I saw DGG's note. Manderson198 (sprech) 16:04, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

But I also hope you understand why I placed it up for proposal-a play from 1958, redlinks for the majority of the cast, and no specific references. I thought it may be significant, but wasn't sure, that is why I used a proposal rather than a speedy deletion tag. Manderson198 (sprech) 16:13, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
It's a dance, not a play; do you know the difference?
And what has its date to do with its significance? Would you propose to delete Swan Lake? Hamlet?
Further, I should not have had to ask you to remove your tag; you should have done so of your own volition.
Had you checked the page history before doing so you would've seen DGG's change; which you then proceed to misquote.
Nothing you have written is in the least apologetic, but I nonetheless thank you for not proposing speedy deletion. — Robert Greer (talk) 16:47, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't entirely think your crass remarks are necessary. I mistakingly wrote down play. Bottom line is, if you thought the play was significant enough to be listed you should have removed the tag yourself, or atleast had an objective party remove it for you. If you are oblivious to my apologetic connotation, then I do formally apologize. Please don't respond, as this matter is closed and this back-and-forth banter is not productive in the least. Manderson198 (sprech) 16:57, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Categorization

Robert, please have a look at this guideline Wikipedia:Categorization and subcategories, my understanding is that the Category:Ballet should go in Category:Dance styles, the Ballet article should be in Category:Ballet with a forced sort as the first article, so [[Category:Ballet| ]] placed in the article. If the article omits the self named category then the category is not shown on the article page, so use of {{catmore}} in the category still requires eponymous categorization of the article. The wonders of Wiki :) Paul foord (talk) 14:51, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Category Dance vs. Dance Styles

I've had several chats (with a Wiki. admin. who's a professional libarian, among others) about ballet, modern dance, categorization etc. What it finally came down to was that Wiki. guidelines are general recommendations, not binding; and, depending on the subject matter, may be downright counterproductive. My reasoning concerning where the category ballet belongs with respect to categories dance and dance styles has to do with its size (and potential size) relative to other dance styles. It could easily become bigger than the entire remainder of the dance style category. If not the remainder of the entire dance category! Though even if that were the case, ballet should logically still be a sub-category of dance. A little logic, a little common sense; and, in truth, I will almost always defer to someone else if they really want it the other way. My Wiki. coding habits are the deritrus of having learned ALGOL at a summer course for high school students (I still pay the rent by teaching in a college computer department despite [1] having done all my grad. study in theatre and Scandinavian studies and [2] holding only an undergraduate degree in EE — despite which I received tenure; I'm sure they regret that to this very day.) So I code consistently — give a child a hammer and the whole world looks like a nail — and catmore is a marvelous hammer, to get the prima ballerina assolutas category to find the ballerina article and so on. So I use it automatically, whether needed or not. I've learned far too many programming languages to have any desire to learn any more about Wiki's underpinnings than I need to. I'm grateful somebody else built it and am delighted to use it, but what I really do is direct and sometimes translate Scandinavian plays. Theatre is my wife, ballet my mistress (and I cheat on both once a week and go to a flamenco club, strictly as audience.) — Robert Greer (talk) 04:24, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] WikiProject Dance|Ballet=yes article classes

[edit] disambiguation talk pages —> WikiProject Dance|Ballet=yes|class=Dab|importance=NA

Hi Robert, this new class for disambiguation talk pages, {{WikiProject Dance|Ballet=yes|class=Dab|importance=NA}}, will help sort some of the many dab pages. — Paul foord 00:59, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] New redirect class on talk page template

for info {{WP Dance|Ballet=yes|class=redirect|importance=na}} — Paul foord 14:17, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] thank you

These're most useful! What are the other available classes; class=category and class=list, I know, but are there any others? — Robert Greer (talk) 20:38, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Types

[edit] articles

|FA|Fa|fa
|A|a
|GA|Ga|ga
|B|b
|Start|start
|Stub|stub

[edit] non-articles

|Category|category|Cat|cat
|Disambig|disambig|Dab|dab
|Image|image
|List|list
|FL|Fl|fl ---> (featured list)
|Portal|portal
|Redirect|redirect|Red|red
|Template|template=

Paul foord (talk) 07:56, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Ballet

No problem. It was a side-effect of finding a coypright violaton on Ronnie Tober, who sang Morgen (song) and then fixing the wrong incoming links to Morgen an old unit of measurement. Cheers. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 16:25, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Your actions concerning Afternoon of a Faun (ballet)

Thanks for the note at my user page, Robert. I now understand something more about this. But I have to say it's most irregular! Please don't redirect again from talk Afternoon of a Faun, since editors may want to discuss that article, even if it is just a redirect. Nothing is lost by leaving that talk page intact, and clarity and order are gained.

May I ask that in future you use the standard means to get discussion on such moves? The only moves that are considered uncontroversial, and so exempt from the usual posting of a warning and an invitation to discussion, are those involving a spelling error or similar glitch. See Wikipedia:Requested_moves#Uncontroversial_proposals. I still don't know how you achieved all of this quite as you did. You are not an admin, are you? So what admin assisted you? They should have known better!

Anyway, provided things are kept regular and consultative from now on, I'll raise no more objections. Please post a short explanation at Talk:Afternoon of a Faun (ballet) and Talk:Afternoon of a Faun (Nijinsky), so that other editors are not left in the dark as I was.

Best wishes to you.

– Noetica♬♩ Talk 06:02, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Well done, Robert. I understand your good intentions, and fully accept your explanation. Myself, I am more concerned with the music, and especially the literary underpinnings in Mallarmé's poem (of which I have made my own metred and rhymed translation). So I don't follow all of the political manoeuvres and entrechats in identifying the various choreographies. I can only watch in fascination.
No, I am not an administrator. Just a conscientious editor. — Robert Greer (talk)
All the best for your work with the ballet articles. I'll have a look from time to time.
– Noetica♬♩ Talk 21:32, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
Sweden, eh? Sounds great. Other poets? O, I do all sorts of strange translations, when I have the inclination and energy. Various languages, various periods.
– Noetica♬♩ Talk 10:31, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ira Aldridge

I replied on my talk page (q.v.), but the short of it is I don't know exactly where I got that. — Jmabel | Talk 05:22, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Thanks

Cheers for noticing my work with the Royal Ballet and English National Ballet articles. They are the two companies that I know the most about, being an ex ballet dancer myself, but if there's anything I can help with elsewhere, do not hesitate to point me in the right direction. I think The ENB article is my main priority as the RB article was already well estalished, however nearly all the existing text on the ENB article is copied word for word from the website. Anyway, happy days and dont forget to let me know if there's anything I can help with. — Crazy-dancing (talk) 20:13, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] You're welcome

So few Wikipedians writing about ballet, so much ballet to be written about! You appear to be writing from England; with what company / companies did you dance? I still take class but never worked as a dancer (but did sing for the Boston Symphony Orchestra), live in NYC and write mostly about New York City Ballet. — Robert Greer 21:05, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] I Agree

Too few people writing about ballet and unfortunately, many that do could do with getting some 'up to date information' if you get my meaning there. I trained at the Royal Ballet lower school, but didn't get offered the upper school, so auditioned for the upper school at Elmhurst and then joined Birmingham Royal Ballet for 3 months, but left to go to Vienna Festival Ballet in Austria because they offered me Soloist and I would never have got promotion in England with the level of competition. From there I decided to go into musical theatre so I retrained in London and have been done musicals, cruise ships and cabaret ever since. Have to say NYCB is one of my favourite companies and I was gutted not to get tickets for their season in London recently, especially as a further visit is not likely to be for many more years yet. Nice to meet you anyhow, we shall lead a crusade to drag ballet into the 21st century — hehehe — Crazy-dancing (talk) 21:27, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] NYCB

Given how strong the pound is against the dollar and how expensive tickets to City Ballet at the Coliseum are, it might be cheaper to see them here in NY, including flight and hotel! At least ballet is healthier than opera with regard to being in the XXI century, or is this a case of a one-eyed man being king in the land of the blind? My own performing arts career went from being a tenor to being a stage director, mostly Swedish plays in English translation, contemporary as well as "classic." Besides NYCB there's Cedar Lake here; I get to Sweden and Denmark two or three times a year (the Royal Danish is in for a refurbishment at the hands (or feet) of their new balletmaster Nikolaj Hübbe, who just retired from City Ballet.) Sweden has a superb dance scene with the Cullberg Ballet and Stockholm 59° North, which is the Royal Swedish Ballet's contemporary ballet group. There are a bunch of Scandinavian dance companies that straddle the border between contemporary ballet and modern dance. Are you familiar with the work of DV8? Stan Won't Dance, a spinoff of two of their founders, performed here at PS 122. Nigel Charnock, another founder, was at official Dance Month two years ago in Stockholm with his Finnish modern dance company and did his trademark solo act the night before his dancers performed (last year a former Cullberg / Batsheva dancer did the solo act he made on her when they were both with DV8.) — Robert Greer 22:28, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] DV8

Absolutely love DV8 and have had the pleasure of working with various people from the company whilst I was at Birds. I prefer their older work like Monochrome Men and Achilles, but I like that they bill themselves as physical theatre and aren't pretentious about what their type of dance is all about. I hate most contemporary dance companies, 90% of them are just laughable, full of 'dancers' who are only in contemporary because they are physically limited and not good enough for any other dance form, so they spend their life rolling around on the floor to incessant boring music, twitching and ticking away. I like contemporary that has a narrative and a strong classical or jazz foundation foundation (generally with ballet dancers dancing the work). I do think ballet is healthy though yes, having said that opera tickets at Covent Garden have now broken £200 ($400) for the first time. The Swedish theatre scene I have almost no knowledge of except that the training opportunities are very limited. I know they have the Royal Swedish Ballet School, but I know of many a swedish dancer that berate the lack of training opportunities there and have come to England to go to either the Royal Ballet, English National or Elmhurst Ballet schools, and they have found work too. Perhaps the biggest proportion of Swedish people I know have come here to go to one of the musical theatre colleges in London, but then alongside New York, there is nowhere better to go for musical theatre either as a student or performer, plus the musical theatre colleges also have a strong foundation in dance and all of them feed into dance companies as well as the West End. Btw sorry for late reply. — Crazy-dancing (talk) 11:40, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Sweden

Sweden has a very structured career path for performers, beginning with admission to one of the few dance or theatre schools. I've known a number of Swedish actors and dancers, male and female, who've come to NY for training, with varying degrees of success. NY has very good dance classes and both good and positively dreadful acting teachers (my last three year with the BSO I went back to theatre school, Emerson College, to study directing.) I've worked with a few who are excellent, but it's difficult for them to (re)establish careers in Sweden; only two in my acquaintance succeeded in doing so; and American Equity is none to eager to have them.

I'm wholly in agreement with you about most modern "dance" here in NY and its practitioners; the exceptions are the ones you see in ballet class every morning at ten. Sweden, Finland and Denmark have contemporary dance companies where company class is ballet — and the women do pointe work, in at least one case in performance as well as in class — as well as contemporary ballet companies where they never perform en pointe even if they've trained it. August is official Dance Month in Stockholm, and there are nightly outdoor dance concerts free of charge, the best companies in northern Europe.

There might be one night the entire month not up to the rest; if there were two such nights the critics would be screaming for the head of the artistic director of Parkteatern! I go there every year. The nearest we have to that in NY is Fall for Dance at City Center, two weeks of dance, not quite free but almost, ten dollars per ticket, £5! The line begins forming before sunrise (I live in the neighborhood and get up at six, which puts me about number twenty in line; I buy a pair for each and every night.)

Ballet, break dance, tap, contemporary, South African gum boot dancing; mixed bills changing every or every other night; New York City Ballet and American Ballet Theatre each contribute a token solo or pas de deux (they do send their principal dancers) but it's mostly from out of town and even overseas. There's not been a night yet that didn't have at least one company that was nothing less than supreme — and most nights one company that "should've stood in bed."

City Ballet has as good a deal, fourth ring tickets at $15 apiece (with a $20 annual membership). I'm at the box office 10 a.m. the day single seats go on sale and buy a pair for the first and last night of each program; they dance about 15 different mixed bills in their winter season and as many in the spring, so I find myself at the NY State Theatre roughly 55 times a year. At about what it would cost to buy two pair to Covent Garden (I must confess to seeing Mayerling three times in two days that last time I was in London.) — Robert Greer 18:30, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Lara Pulver

Thanks for adding positive feedback to the discussion whether to delete the article about Lara Pulver. I did the majority of the work on the article and even though it was badly referenced, the person who tagged it was definitely doing it to be spiteful, whatever the other contributors might say. Whoever Qworty is, they wiped all but the first sentence of the article saying it was unreferenced and not-notable when it bloody well was, just not done entirely up to scratch. So, I put back 90% of what I'd written and lo and behold I wake up this morning to find it tagged for deletion. As you might have noticed, I placed a note on there questioning Qworty's motives for tagging and people replied that it was concientious editing, but if you look at their talk page, it seems my objection to their editing style is just one in an extensive list of people who have similarly had the rug pulled from under their feet or ended up in an editing war with this 'expert on all things'. Anyway, hope you have a good day. — Crazy-dancing (talk) 16:26, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Vienna Festival Ballet

Sorry for not emailing, have been having trouble with my email lately. To be honest I don't think VFB is particularly notable for inclusion on Wikipedia. It's a very young company, only started in the 80s and though it's had some excellent dancers, the Director, Peter Mallek is really the only notable person linked with the company. The reason I say this is because being exclusively touring and casting on a season to season basis, they have a very high turnover of dancers, with most of the Principals being guest dancers and the majority doing (as I did) a fixed term contract for about 9 months before moving on. Plus, despite having danced with the company, I actually know very little about its history. All I know is that it was started in Vienna, but is now based in the UK, mainly using the BBO's studios for rehearsals. — Crazy-dancing (talk) 01:12, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Vienna

Hi there, just wiping my talk page and spotted your question about rep I did with Vienna Festival Ballet. It was literally a season of Swan Lake, Nutcracker and Coppelia (for the masses). We also did quite a few galas like an 'Evening of Tchaikovsky' etc, a couple of shows with Wayne Sleep and quite a few charity galas. With Vienna, they are mainly trying to promote ballet to laymen, so they take the real 'classic' tutus and tiaras ballets out there, things that an audience can identify as ballet even if they've never seen one live before. When we did galas, that was our opportunity to really show off the prowess of the company and dance some other work so we did quite a varied range of styles and had some work choreographed for us for those occasions. I got to dance a piece called Perfect Skin originally created for Scapino Ballet by a dutch choreographer called Ed Wubbe and it was just beautiful, dancing that is one of my best memories.

It's very easy to snigger at VFB, but the thing about it is, it's a small scale company for a reason, so it can fit into tiny theatres, and the sets are cheap and compact for the same reason. They do the 'trashy classics' in rotation because that's what the audiences want to see, especially in areas where it would be difficult for people to get to see The Royal, Birmingham Royal or English National. ENB in particular is supposed to be a touring company, but it does very large scale productions so only goes into the biggest theatres, unlike VFB which will go to more or less any theatre with a stage, even if it's the size of a postage stamp. If you really look at the dancer biogs though there is some real top class talent in the company, there's always more than a fair share of ex Royal Ballet Schoolers who are always exquisite, and a huge bulk of European dancers too. Anyway enough of my warbling. See you soon now am back on wikipedia properly for the next couple of days. — Crazy-dancing

[edit] far be it from me

Far be it from me to snigger; Perfect Skin is a major work, at least if one is to judge by who's danced it, not least Talia Paz whom I've seen perform her DV8 solo and other work in Stockholm — she used to be with the Cullberg Ballet — though not in the Wubbe (it shows up on Wiki. under Golan Yosef's article.) And just what is wrong with tutus, tiaras, Swan Lake, Nutcracker and Coppelia?! I wouldn't make a steady diet of them, but the US contemporary dance types who wouldn't be caught dead wearing ballet slippers — and haven't taken class on pointe since their senior year of college — are truly provincial. VFB deserves credit for doing real outreach with real ballet. — Robert Greer

PS What did you dance in Nutcracker? — Robert Greer 14:41, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Nutcracker

It would be easier to ask what roles I didn't dance in Nutcracker. With the high turnover in tour dates and guests dancers coming in, I shifted around doing all sorts. I did the Gopak, China Tees, the Prince and less glamorously, a stick of liquorice, but I did also do Fritz and Drosselymer. — Crazy-dancing

[edit] Royal Ballet

Hi there, have gone a bit crazy adding stuff to the Royal Ballet article. Wondered if you could take a look. I know I need to add in sources and references, and have kept a note of them, but just wanted to get all the written stuff in first of all. — Crazy-dancing (talk) 19:34, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] will do

Just as soon as I finish today's installment on City Ballet! — Robert Greer 19:41, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] and another thing

I am going mad seeing people making grandiose statements about why the Ballet and Classical ballet articles should remain seperate and that they are different and yet there is next to no difference between them. Is there anything we can do to sort this out. I think Ballet should become a redirect to Classical Ballet and then that article rewritten exlusively about the historical developement of ballet as a classical art form and then a section for links where people can write up their stuff about contemporary ballet, neo-classical ballet etc etc etc. I am only going mad because someone has added Sir Fred Ashton and Ken MacMillan to a list of Neo-classical choreographers and it's just all ... pardon the language ... bull***t. — Crazy-dancing (talk) 20:23, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] It must be something in the water ...

... that attracts loonies to ballet articles. At least the ones driving you crazy are ballet lovers. I've had to defend articles against demands for speedy deletion raised by people who've never even been to the ballet; time that could've been spent writing more articles (my success rate defending ballet against deletion is 100%; I lost two or three modern dance articles in my early days on Wiki. but simply imbedded the text into the article from which they sprang.)

There are any number of ballet issues and articles on Wikipedia I refuse to get involved with: Ballet, Classical Ballet, Pointe shoes, En pointe, Nijinsky etc.
Ashton and MacMillan would've been shocked — shocked! — to have learned that their work was neo-classic. The term "classical ballet" appears to be a back formation from "neo-classical ballet;" and, as you say, it refers to what previously was simply called, "ballet."
Try to forget the "classical" ballet nonsense, just stick to your Royal Ballet work and bear in mind what my Daddy used to say (he was a working man.) "Never get into a p***ing match with a skunk!" — Robert Greer 20:56, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] So ...

I take it you think my work on the Royal Ballet article is good then or is there any direction you could push me in? — Crazy-dancing (talk) 21:04, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] It's terrific!

And I'm really serious about not wasting your time trying to talk sense to barbarians. You have a degree of access and insider knowledge that's very rare and not just in the land of Wiki. I've been using Wikipedia to document individual ballets and their casting; including revivals, second and third casts, and individual dancers' first times in rôles; on the grounds that this sort of information is here today and gone tomorrow. It's in my own interest and if of use to anyone else so much the better, but this may not be your cuppa tea. Your section on Johan Kobborg declining the ballet master slot at the Royal Danish was juicy; Nikolaj Hübbe just left NYCB (he was listed as a guest artist with them at the Coliseum) to take the job. He gave a couple of talks, one at City Ballet's home, New York State Theatre, the other at Scandinavia House (I speak Swedish and read Danish.) He was quite candid about having applied and been turned down for the same post ten years ago. — Robert Greer (talk) 21:27, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Circus Polka

Hi Robert, sorry I had to delete your article. I had been working on this article in a user page of mine for a while. The version that's up now is much more extensive and has all of the information that was in your article. — Carabinieri (talk) 20:07, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] thank you

That's nothing to apologize for: there are so few of us writing about ballet and so much ballet to be written about; yours is a lovely and loving article! — Robert Greer (talk)

PS I took the liberty of adding Robert La Fosse's name, as he has been the ringmaster of late and will likely continue in the role; also a direct link to the City Ballet website repertory index and a category of their rep. — 10:55, 23 April 2008 (UTC) — Robert Greer (talk) 10:56, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Carla Körbes

No problem. Oore (talk) 18:55, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Mayerling movies

I don't have any knowledge as to which dates would be correct (I've always found movie dates to be variable, with differences of a year or two between sources quite normal...perhaps reflecting the dates made, released in the U.S. and released worldwide. Unless we have a movie Wikiproject that's decided otherwise, I'd just go with whatever's listed on IMDB.COM. - Nunh-huh 01:20, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] thank you

Thank you again for the Mayerling / Vetsera‎ clean up! — Robert Greer (talk) 14:05, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] NYC Meetup: June 1, 2008

New York City Meetup


Next: Sunday June 1st, Columbia University area
Last: 3/16/2008
This box: view • talk • edit

In the afternoon, we will hold a session dedicated to meta:Wikimedia New York City activities, elect a board of directors, and hold salon-style group discussions on Wikipedia and the other Wikimedia projects (see the last meeting's minutes). We'll also review our recent Wikipedia Takes Manhattan event, and make preparations for our exciting successor Wiki Week bonanza, being planned with Columbia University students for September or October. In the evening, we'll share dinner and chat at a local restaurant, and (weather permitting) hold a late-night astronomy event at Columbia's telescopes. You can add or remove your name from the New York City Meetups invite list at Wikipedia:Meetup/NYC/Invite list. Also, check out our regional US Wikimedia chapters blog Wiki Northeast (and we're open to guest posts).
This has been an automated delivery by BrownBot (talk) 00:29, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Petipa

What was it? (I can't seem to find it.)   jj137 ♠ 02:51,

24 December 2007 (UTC)

Ok, well thanks.   jj137 ♠ 02:57, 24 December 2007

(UTC)


[edit] Balanchine, Tallchief, Ballets Russes etc.

Thanks for your thanks - yes, I'm a ballet buff, but not as lucky as your living in NY and getting to see the NYCB. I lived in Seattle years

ago and took ballet classes from a couple who had danced with the Ballets Russes and Ballet Russe de Monte Carlo. They had so many

wonderful stories about those years. You must have seen the documentary a couple of years ago on the "Ballets Russes" - I loved it and the way

they captured the dancers' vivacity. It made me miss my teachers and friends so much. By then they had both passed away. I was lucky to know

them. Glad you're keeping up the tradition. — Parkwells (talk) 20:01, 6 January 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Prima Ballerina Assoluta

Hi Robert, I did start up the category "Prima Ballerina Assoluta" and others have changed it/the wording to "Prima Ballerina

Assolutas, "Prime Ballerina Assoluta", etc. In this case, I would stick to the single, and go for "Prima Ballerinas Assoluta", if I had to make it

plural.

Someone else added the "Prima Ballerina Assoluta" article to the category. I am not too fussed at how the category or articles on the subject

progess. The term is for historical purposes mainly. It certainly does not mean that an "Assoluta" is by definition "better". I think tbat Pavlova

would certainly have been a better dancer than some on this list.

I used to see the ballet more often than I do now. I have had the pleasure of seeing both Nijinsky and also Plisetskaya dancing live (not together). I

was very young at the time. Plisetskaya seemed to have an electric effect on the audience, which I have seen from no other dancer.

As mentioned, feel free to tidy up anything you want to. :) Wallie 16:30, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Whoops. I meant to say Nureyev, not Nijinsky. Sorry about that. If I had seen Nijinsky, that would mean I would be around 100 or so year's old. He

was dancing around 1913. — Wallie (talk) 14:09, 17 January 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Correlazione

I have reverted my edit. — ukexpat (talk) 22:59, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] thank you

Thank you for the undo! — Robert Greer 01:40, 7 March 2008 (UTC)