Talk:Rapping

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Good article Rapping was one of the good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
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[edit] Merge, poll

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Hello there. I see no reasons why articles named Rapping and Hip Hop music should not be merged.

Rapping article fails to describe rapping as a vocal techniqe separate from rap music genre. 90% of Rapping article actually desctibe the history of American hip hop.

On the other hand, Hip Hop music article in its current form describes Rap music as well. Why should be have two articles on the same subject? That's my first reason for merging them.

If you believe that both articles may be improved to not mix up things like it happens right now, please read further...

I would probably agree that rapping as a vocal style is used in genres other than rap music. I would name Western African folk music, rap metal, big beat, dancehall, grime music... That's probaly all, but that's enough. However!

1. Rap metal, big beat and grime music are all fusion genres of rap music with rock and dance music. They are all offsprings of US rap music, no more!
2. When talking about West African folk music or dancehall, "rapping" in these genres are almost never refered as such. Instead, terms like "chanting" and "deejaying" are used. Additionaly, they differ a lot from rapping as using in US hip hop.

Actually, pure rapping is only used in rap music and its many sub-genres.

So, I strongly doubt that there's a need for a separate article on rapping as a vocal style. That's my second reason for merging Rapping and Hip Hop music.

If you disagree, please:

1. Re-write Rapping article first so it would describle subject as a vocal style used in different genres (and not mention US hip hop apart from "main article" link).
2. Re-write Hip hop music article so it would not not mention US hip hop apart from "main article" link.

I don't think it's possible. Netrat_msk (talk) 10:42, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

I've forgot to mention Drum & Bass MC's, but I don't think this changes a lot.
I agree -- this is a problem of rewriting not merging. "Rap music" redirects to "hip hop music" and "rap" redirects to "rapping." The best strategy is to use disambiguation tags, like those at the top of rapping. --Junius49 (talk) 22:44, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
I've also proposed an alternative merge between hip hop, which is mostly about music, and hip hop music. --Junius49 (talk) 22:47, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Support

  1. Support as nominator. Netrat_msk (talk) 10:42, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
  2. Support: Rapping is only syphoning content and effort away from Hip hop musicCosprings (talk) 15:48, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Oppose

  1. Opposed --Junius49 (talk) 22:18, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
could you elaborate on that please Beeblbrox (talk) 06:13, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
  1. I'm not sure I entirely understand what is being proposed, but I'm pretty sure I oppose it. The act of rapping has plenty of info available to write a complete article, as does the field of hip hop music. Rap music is a vague and confusing term, and should probably be a disambiguation page pointing to both those articles. Tuf-Kat (talk) 22:47, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
  2. I am very much opposed to merging. From the lead of Hip hop: "Hip hop (also spelled hip-hop or hiphop) is both a cultural movement and a genre of music developed in New York City in the 1970s primarily by African Americans and Latinos.[1]." KRS One put it even better: "Rap is something you do, Hip Hop is something you live." I agree that more rewriting is needed, but the music is just one part of hip hop culture, albeit the part most well known to the general public. Rapping is a vocal technique used in hip hop music, but is only part of what makes a song hip hop. The DJ, the producer, and sometimes other musicians all contribute as well. It is like saying that singing and opera are the same thing. Singing is of course the central element of opera, but there's a lot more going on on the stage and in the orchestra pit. Beeblbrox (talk) 18:30, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
Rap music is a vague and confusing term - I'm pretty sure that its quite opposite: the term hip hop music is vague and confusing. See Talk:Hip hop music for details. Netrat_msk (talk) 21:48, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
Rap is something you do, Hip Hop is something you live - This means that rap is a music genre and hip hop is a culture. Netrat_msk (talk) 21:48, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
Rapping is a vocal technique used in hip hop music, but is only part of what makes a song hip hop. - The presence of rapping is what makes a song classifiable as a rap music, even when other instruments are present(but not always as a not hip hop). Coldplay and Queen are classifiend as Piano rock in spite of the fact that piano is not реу only instrument they use. The term rap music is more universally accepted, just check dictionaries. Netrat_msk (talk) 21:48, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
For the record, it's been my experience that people who actually use "rap" as noun meant to be synonymous with "hip hop", instead of as a verb for one particular thing that a hip hop musician does within the larger context of hip hop as a whole, are almost invariably rock snobs who are using the word with an unspoken — and sometimes dancing on the edge of outright racist — sneer: "Oh, I like all kinds of music except (*snort*) rap." It's not used that way by anybody else. Bearcat (talk) 14:21, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
It is like saying that singing and opera are the same thing. - No, it's the same as saying the opera vocals and opera are the same thing. This is not 100% accurate, but opera vocals are almost never used outside opera genre, so there's no point to have separtate articles on both. Netrat_msk (talk) 21:48, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
  1. If this article isn't primarily about rapping as a vocal technique, then it should be rewritten that way. Rapping is part of hip hop, obviously, but it's just one part, not the whole thing: it's the vocals. Hip hop has other aspects — instrumentation, production, DJing, visual presentation, etc. — in addition to rapping. And, in fact, a song that's sung, rather than rapped, can still be hip hop if it draws on those other aspects, so there does exist hip hop that isn't "rap". This article should be specifically about the vocal aspect of hip hop, just as singing is a separate article from music. Bearcat (talk) 14:21, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] subject matter

It says that rap mainly comes from large east and west coast metropolitans when the most famous form of rap is from the South--Primetimeking 03:59, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

You are probably just too young to know the actual history of hip-hop. Netrat_msk (talk) 10:34, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Rap is not hip/hop there is a major difference. Hip Hop can but does not have to contain rap. Rap is just vocals whereas hip hop can be any combination of beats, bass, computer generated sounds and vocals. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.170.132.252 (talk) 06:41, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] redundancy

I just read through (and made some minor corrections to) this page and then took a look at the hip hop and american hip hop articles and couldn't help noticing that they duplicate quite a bit of the same material. It seems to me that this article would be much better if all of the exploration of the history of north american hip hop was moved to the page on north american hip hop and this article was left with only information on rapping itself.

the sections that i would leave in this article are:

history roots writing and its subsections - though i'm on the fence about whether the 'subject matter' section should stay or be moved performance and its subsections similar musical traditions notes and references

everything else in this article is addressed in greater depth elsewhere. the section on identity in particular seems mispaced since it has to do with the culture of hip hop, not the style of rap. as krs-one likes to say, "rap is something we do, hip hop is something we live", in other words one is a culture and the other is a vocal technique. my argument is that we should (you should) put the cultural stuff on the pages where hip hop culture is being discussed and leave the page on rapping to deal with the vocal technique.

just my 2.5 cents