Talk:Rage Against the Machine

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Good article Rage Against the Machine has been listed as one of the Arts good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can delist it, or ask for a reassessment.
January 5, 2008 Good article nominee Listed
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[edit] Opening statement

If you are here to argue about the PMRC image being removed, please see the archive of past discussions regarding the subject. Chances are, any argument you wish to deal with has been brought up before. In all truth, the image does not have a snowball's chance of being taken down, so before you start an argument about how you dislike the picture being there, please see the two links I have posted, and try to only post something about the picture if you feel you have something new to add - otherwise the discussion will be over rather quickly. ≈ The Haunted Angel21:42, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] RATM Is or Are an american rock group

Should be "are" NOT "is", jees.

--Dd1989 (talk) 17:16, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

You've come across a difference between American and British English. In short, the current form is correct when talking about American bands. Out of interest, why change only one "is"? CloudNine (talk) 20:18, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] 30 For A Revolution

I found some stuff about it, but I don't know the album, it seems to be a 'best of'. Can anyone confirm this, or is it just a fake/fan release? ~ Moersleuteltje —Preceding comment was added at 15:09, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

30 songs would almost be their whole catalog, so it's most likely fake.161.133.8.248 (talk) 18:19, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Sleep Now in the Fire video

First off, I apologize for messing up the archives, my brain is tired. Secondly, is there anyone good with screenshots? I think a screenshot from the "Sleep Now in the Fire" video would be very beneficial to the article. Can anyone do this? -- Reaper X 23:12, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

How would that be justified as fair use outside the song article? Skomorokh incite 21:44, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
Besides the PMRC image (which shocks people primarily), it illustrates RAtM's bold protests to spread their revolutionary viewpoints, something that is a major part of the band's identity. -- Reaper X 21:52, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
Ah. I can't say I understand the policy, just that screenshots from films are hardly ever allowed to be used in other articles unless the actors are dead. Is it not conceivable that free images exist to display rage's "revolutionary viewpoints"? Skomorokh incite 22:02, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
Maybe, maybe there's some sitting in someone's desk. But I've looked and can't find any on the web. -- Reaper X 22:11, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Nassau Colisseum Concert

I think the statement saying they're playing on December 3, 2007 should be taken down as there are no statements of the concert on the band's website or the Colisseum's. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.195.59.194 (talk) 23:16, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "In popular culture" split

I suggest moving most of the section to a new article, Rage Against the Machine (phrase), because many of the examples given are only of tangential relevance to the band itself. Any thoughts? CloudNine 11:01, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

It's simply not notable. I say just cut the references here down to what is actually remarked upon in reliable sources - that should solve the problem. Skomorokh incite 11:50, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
I've been bold and removed it. The text is available below in case the general consensus suggests reinclusion. CloudNine 15:23, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
In popular culture

I re-integrated the picture from that section with this edit, which required some more re-arranging. Modify as you see fit. -- Reaper X 03:03, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

I think the section could be re-integrated as an "Impact" section, divided into parts dealing with the phrase (which I'm sure could be supported as being popularised by the band) and a section on musical influence (several sources have identified them as the founders of 90s rap-rock/metal or credited them with reintroducing activism to popular music). It is probably worth including Richard Cheese and Lounge Against the Machine, though they may fit in either of those sections. ~ Switch (✉✍☺☒) 06:51, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Political views and activism" subsectioning

I think we need to cut the amount of subsections down in the Political views and activism section. I would keep EZLN, Saturday Night Live censorship, Radio Free L.A., "Sleep Now in the Fire" video shoot, and 2000 DNC. IMO these sections are the most notable ones, and can be expanded or are at a good length now. The rest could be listed at Other activism, but I'm worried that it will then become a list of names and organizations, or become subject to proseline. Thoughts? -- Reaper X 16:07, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Indeed. That's the one section I feel has too many. We only need to mention the most notable (others can be dealt with in song or album articles). CloudNine 16:53, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
What we basically need to do is summarize their general beliefs, and then use specific examples where appropriate. Models for how to approach this are what CloudNine and I have done at Pearl Jam#Campaigning and activism and R.E.M. (band)#Campaigning and activism. WesleyDodds 04:17, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
I've merged the stub sections into Other activism. Is it any better now? Also, much of EZLN is more pertinent to ZDLR than the band itself. Skomorokh incite 14:55, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
The 2000 Democratic National Convention section could be shorten; it seems to talk more about the incident than the band itself. CloudNine (talk) 15:46, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
Do you think PMRC and Guess? items could be merged there too? Besides that, it looks great Skomorokh. -- Reaper X 20:43, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
Great, in that case I agree with all three proposals: shrink EZLN and DMC 2000, merge PMRC and Guess. Skomorokh incite 21:41, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
Holy hell, that looks excellent. Cheers all around. -- Reaper X 03:58, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
Also, how about a conservative view of RATM? This L. Brent Bozell III column "Again, Rage Tilts at Windmills" from Nov. 18, 1999 around the release of Battle of L.A. I think this "dissenting" view should allow better NPOV/balance. --Andrewlp1991 (talk) 18:27, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Reunion

I got an email: "The brand new www.ratm.com

website launched!

Be sure to stop by to comment on the new message board, check out the latest tour dates, see new live photos and a whole lot more. ratm.com" Then it lists the sites tour dates of Australia and Japan I'm so excited I can't put it in wikipedia haha —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.82.101.78 (talk) 04:21, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] More music discussion/samples

Hi there, seeing as this is the alternative music collaboration of the week I just thought I would offer up my resources. I have all Rage's studio albums and am fairly proficient at making ogg music samples that conform to the fair use standards.

At the moment I'm finding it hard to find somewhere to throw in some illustrative samples because the article's focus is so heavily on activism rather than the band's style and music (which has been heavily influential and revolutionary to say the least). I would argue that the activism subheadings should be combined and condensed rather than expanded... but hey, I've hardly made any edits to this article and haven't even read through the entire activism section because I honestly find it a bit too dry for consumption. I just think the proportions of the band history, musical style and activism should be more evenly weighted.

So, if there is ever more discussion about the band's sound, I'll be more than happy to chop you up a short sample that illustrates something discussed in the text. Considering "The group's music is based primarily on de la Rocha's rhyming styles and Morello's unusual guitar techniques," surely we could use some discussion of Morello's inventive solos (Wake Up? Bulls on Parade? Guerilla Radio?), De La Rocha's lyrics and the band's rap-metal crossover moments. Whatever, basically, leave a message on my talk page if you'd like a sample made. - Phorque (talk) 20:39, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

The main reason for the predominant focus being on the band's activism and politics is that most of the interviews and articles with the band focus on that - they're generally music or politics publications that mention something as amorphous as "rap-rock" or as far off the mark as "grunge" (!) before ploughing into what distinguished the band from their peers, which is generally more interesting to both types of publication. Of course, guitar magazines often had interviews with Morello that went into lots of detail, but he brushed most of those questions off - unfortunate, since coverage of his style is entirely absent from this article. The band are rarely acknowledged as especially innovative in the rap/funk/punk/metal style (at which Commerford has expressed frustration), though the sources are out there. Some specific things I can source are the feelings of the band members on their music. There's an early de la Rocha quote (from before he left the media stuff to Morello) in which he makes it clear he thinks the band is "punk and hip hop" musically, which about sums it up. Morello also talks about Sabbath and Zeppelin influencing his style, but de la Rocha doesn't (or at least didn't) like metal. The rhythm section is more focused on the funk/hip hop/jazz end of the sound. All this I can source if and when I have a few spare hours, but there's very little published on the way the band's sound changed from album to album, which is also important - they hit their biggest success when the alternative, funk, jazz and punk influences were downplayed to accommodate more metal and hip hop style. There was a radio interview here in Australia back in the late 90s in which Morello mentioned that The Battle of Los Angeles was more heavily inspired by metal and hip hop than their earlier, more diverse efforts. If anyone has any back issues of relevant magazines, that'd be the best bet. ~ Switch (✉✍☺☒) 06:50, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
I have a couple of guitar magazine interviews with Morello; I might even have one with Commerford. I probably won't have time to go through them anytime soon, but for soundclips a good idea would be one from each album. Definitely "Bulls on Parade", but the others are subject to yoru discretion, Phorque. Oh, and I was meaning to trim down that activism and politics section (due to its size this article is the eighth-longest page in the Alt-Rock wikiproject, and it doesn't even talk about the music!); hopefully I can take a pass at that soon. WesleyDodds (talk) 11:29, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
Interesting points, guys. It comes as a surprise to me that this is actually somewhat of a result of how Rage have been portrayed in the media. But yeah, at the very least we must make an effort to dig up what's out there about the band's style/sound/influence(s). I'll get to work on some samples. - Phorque (talk) 12:51, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Nude picture

Who inserted a nude picture? Doesn't that violate something? It seems very unnecessary. Andraxx (talk) 01:50, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Ye Gods! After much discussion, the editors of this article have decided overwhelmingly that the nude protest image belongs in the article. To review the discussion, see Talk:Rage_Against_the_Machine/PMRC. Regards, Skomorokh incite 02:00, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
It doesn't violate anything Andraxx. Wikipedia policy clearly states that Wikipedia is not censored for taste or otherwise. Nudity is allowed. VanTucky talk —Preceding comment was added at 03:29, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
Personally I think it's awesome that Rage rock out with their cocks out. I knew they'd done some heavy protesting, but I didn't know about the PMRC protest until the penises jumped out at me in this article, haha. - Phorque (talk) 14:36, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
Maybe you can use Template:Hidden so the pic's shown only for people who want to see it (example). igordebraga ≠ 18:43, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
This has been discussed. The consensus of the editors is that it should remain the way it is. DTGardner (talk) 18:49, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
And that is hidden for a more specific reason - as to not ruin the effectiveness of the test. ≈ The Haunted Angel Review Me! 19:03, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

I stopped reading the article when i saw the nude picture, not a fan out dicks sorry, might want to use the side angle picture that most tv shows use that has there cocks covered. Just a thought. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.118.169.140 (talk) 06:01, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Mate, that's tragic. Welcome to 2008. Seegoon (talk) 07:17, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

There is nothing really wrong about nude pictures. Technically, it is info. The real problem is the idiotic perverts who make a big deal out of crap like this. Prepsear (talk) 01:35, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Good article nomination comments

The article is very close to being of good article status, but there are a few issues that need to be corrected:

  • The introduction makes several statements that should be referenced, notably the entire first paragraph.
  • There are a couple of grammatical errors, including the unneeded capitalization of some musical genres (e.g., Hip Hop instead of hip hop).
  • There is no clear need for the image Image:Zach de la Rocha at 2007 Coachella Valley Music and Arts Festival.jpg, as a very similar image is in the infobox.

Kakofonous (talk) 19:40, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Successful good article nomination

I am glad to report that this article nomination for good article status has been promoted. This is how the article, as of January 5, 2008, compares against the six good article criteria:

1. Well written?: Definitely. Great use of quotes in particular.
2. Factually accurate?: The article was improve per my recommendations with citations in the lead and uses verifiable sources throughout.
3. Broad in coverage?: Covers the band very thoroughly, including excellent information about its political views (which could have easily been written with POV).
4. Neutral point of view?: Pass
5. Article stability? Pass
6. Images?: Excellent image choices with appropriate fair use rationales.

If you feel that this review is in error, feel free to take it to Good article reassessment. Thank you to all of the editors who worked hard to bring it to this status, and congratulations.— Kakofonous (talk) 17:43, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Weasel Words?

I don't like this: "He said that the Bush administration has started war on two fronts; he is destroying the communities in and around Baghdad and he is destroying the community and culture, notably African-American culture, within New Orleans."

Could we have a direct quote or at least better phrasing? --RaphaelBriand (talk) 12:25, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

I think we can do completely without that being mentioned. I hate the length that section is going to. -- Reaper X 04:51, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] How about...

"At the 2000 MTV Music Video Awards, RATM's "Sleep Now In The Fire" was nominated for best video, but lost to Limp Bizkit's "Break Stuff". As Fred Durst was giving his acceptance speech, Tim Commerford climbed a 15-foot set piece on top of the stage and rocked back and forth. Fred Durst reacted by saying that Limp Bizkit must be "without a doubt the most hated band in the world". Commerford later commented that the incident was just a joke, but nevertheless the incident prevented Limp Bizkit from playing live on TV. Commerford ended the night at the police station with his bodyguards."

This is (mostly) a translation of the MTV MVA section in the French Wikipedia article. There are a couple of good citations in the French section to back it up. I think it's a little better than the current one, which currently reads:

"At the 2000 MTV VMAs Tim Commerford climbed to the top of the stage set and nearly brought the left stage down, it in protest of the fact that Limp Bizkit, whose video was merely other celebrities lip-synching the words to the song "Break Stuff" in front of the band performing, won Best Rock Video instead of Rage Against the Machine's "Sleep Now in the Fire".

Anyone more Wikipeda-savvy is welcome to use this and change it as they wish. --RaphaelBriand (talk) 15:10, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] You cant kill the revolutionaries not listed in any track

Why's this? --Blackguards_Light (talk) 15:28, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

...Noone knows? --Blackguards_Light (talk) 00:34, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Fine, ill even post the lyrics to the song. --Blackguards_Light (talk) 14:18, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
Please be aware that the adding of lyrics to Wikipedia is a copyright violation. -- Reaper X 02:56, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
Noone seems to understand. Fine, i'll end it. Blackguards_Light //Evil turning good//
We understand that the track exists. It's not clear that it's a RATM song rather than a Maynard James Keenan/Zack de la Rocha song. If it is, individual songs are not listed in this article, but please feel free to add the name of the song and information about it (not the lyrics) to Rage Against the Machine discography. Thanks, скоморохъ 14:19, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Yeah this song actually is a collaboration between the bands, not just the two lead singers. Sources: [1], [2], [3]. I'll add it to the disco. --LeakeyJee (talk) 13:00, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Reunion section revisited

I refuse to start an edit war, so I think we need to discuss the reunion section again. Arnies reverted my edit with this diff here with the rationale that it's important because it's the first show outside of the US. However, I object 'cause I think it is OVERKILL. We know that de la Rocha is shitting on the Bush administration, and we already have a quote about his view that "They should be hung, and tried, and shot." Beyond this, it does not add to the article, especially when we have other parts of their career that could be expanded upon. I already mention that they have visited New Zealand, and so at the most I would add that it was at the Big Day Out, and it was their first show outside the US all in one sentence; there's no need for an entire paragraph. Thoughts? -- Reaper X 04:43, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Agree. --RaphaelBriand (talk) 20:07, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
Point taken. --Arnies (talk) 04:17, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
Ditto. It's ridiculous that the reunion section is competing with the combined Early years and Mainstream success sections for length. I've removed the minutiae concerning ex-US shows. скоморохъ 20:33, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Needs disambiguation

"Rage against the machine" is a phrase deriving from the student movement at Berkeley; there is a serious historical inaccuracy to have the term direct to a band which used this term as its name, without addressing the term itself. KenThomas (talk) 05:38, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Sources? 202.81.18.30 (talk) 23:40, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
Yeah, exactly what the anon said. Even if you provided a source, the band would most likley keep the main page - the phrase would (if it actually was notable enough) would have it's own disambiguation page. However, I'm guessing that it's not gonna' be anywhere near notable enough. ≈ The Haunted Angel 00:18, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

You don't seem to understand disambiguation - it's purpose is to direct the reader to the appropriate article. As we do not have an article on Rage against the machine (phrase), or any other use of the term, there is absolutely no need for disambiguation here. See WP:DAB for further details. Regards, Skomorokh 01:59, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Even if there was a page for the phrase, and a disambiguation page was created, typing in "rage against the machine" would direct to the band anyway since they're far more famous and the vast majority of people typing that in would be looking for the band. --RaphaelBriand (talk) 14:22, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] they are at radio one weekend

the black guy on for scott mills just said it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.139.153.238 (talk) 17:51, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry, please use a clearer statement. Also, if "that black guy on for scott mills" is
not a reliable source (which I doubt he is) it will not be added. Mr.Willison (talk) 13:19, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Band's wealth not up for discussion?

So these guys rail against greed ad nauseum, but no one can identify their greed? How many poor people are able to surf?

Where did all of the money from their success go? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.66.97.123 (talk) 17:42, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

This is an encyclopedia. If you want to improve the Wikipedia article on Rage Against the Machine, please find relevant content in reliable sources and include it. If you want to discuss the supposed "greed" of the band, I recommend you do so on a blog or message board: http://www.ratm.com and http://www.Vietnow.org are two such forums. Skomorokh 17:47, 8 May 2008 (UTC)