Talk:Qin (state)

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Shang Yang couldn't have been a "firm believer in the philosophies of Han Fei;" he lived & died a full century before Han Fei. --Bill Henderson

Why are the king list broken into chunk of three? --Menchi 03:31, 11 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Dunno but I guessed Spring and Autumn Period, the spot in between, and Warring States Period. Then I thought the spot in between wasn't that long, and my theory was mush. Well ... still waiting for an answer! :) --Pratyeka 05:11, 11 Nov 2003 (UTC)

The breaks make it look that there are three sub-dynasties though (especially the fact that the numbers get re-initialized to one twice!), when the succession was continuous. It is worth noting when the Warring States Period began in the list; here are the years: [1]. However, I don't know if it is true that the five ancestors of Feizi were "rulers of Qin", as shown on that table. My understanding is that Qin City was not rewarded to this family until Feizi. --Menchi 05:20, 11 Nov 2003 (UTC)

My understanding is that those 5 ancestors were closer to mythological rulers than actual. Starting the lists with Qin Zhong is appropiate since he fought the western barbarians for the protection of King Li of Zhou. kt2 06:45, 11 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Actually King Xiao of Zhou was pleased with Feizi's ability to bread horses between the Wei and Qian Rivers and assigned him with the town of Qin and the name of Qin Ying "setting asside land for him so that he may become a dependant domain". And it was from him that the Qin lineage began: Qin Ying, his son Qin Hou (10 years of rule), his grandson Gongbo (3 years of rule), his great-grandson Qin Zhong (23 years). And it was really King Xuan of Zhou (successor of King Li) who after sucurring his place on the throne, sent Qin Zhong to push back the Quanrong people, but he was killed in battle and his son was sent in to replace him and he succeded in defeating the Quanrong so from there King Xiao officially made him Duke Zhuang of Qin. So personally, I think the list should start from either Feizi or Duke Zhuang. --Master Liang 01:14, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

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Did the state cease to exist when King Zheng proclaimed himself emperor? --Jiang 07:12, 11 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Answered in the article kt2 07:27, 11 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Why are there several kings deleted?Pookleblinky 03:57, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] size of armies

This article seems to take ancient sources of the sizes of armies at face value. Ancient sources place the army of the contemporary Persian Empire at 500,000 men, but nobody believes that today. But I am not expert enough to say more. Can someone check it? David s graff 03:07, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Can someone please check the numbers on these armies?? They seem impossibly huge. The greatest empires in history never managed to have armies that numbered as large as the ones described in this article. How can a mere state raise an army that took the entire Roman Empire to raise? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.177.120.233 (talk) 09:20, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Let's start with the change of army system during that time. Warfares between feudal states upto around mid Spring and Autumn period had been consisted of chariots battles and the sizes of armies were accounted for in terms of number of chariots, where each chariot was accompanied with approximately 30 foot soldiers. Large battles during the Spring and Autumn period such as the battle of Chengpu (632 B.C.) between Chu and Jin each side manuvered around 700 chariots, i.e. ~21,000 men. All these men came from the noble families, where slaves and ordinary citizens (farmers) were not enlisted.

As the scale of war escalated into late Spring and Autumn and early Warring States, the need for larger and large army stretched the noble population to its limit for providing an elite educated fighting force and conscription of ordinary citizens became the new system, which resulted in a huge jump in army sizes. The state's survival requirement for large armies also promoted the developments of human settlement in previously unoccupided lands and agricultural practices were put into full force in these newly developed lands in order to stock up food and supplies during peace years and provide urgent frontline needs during wartimes. Besides foods and supplies, the most critical benefit of land development was the increase in population, as the same manpower for land cultivation was also fully utilized in battle. Based on the Discourses of the Warring States, Book Zhao, General Zhao Tu mentioned "in acient times (pre-warring states), cities despite large, still no more than 300 zhang (measured across, where 1 zhang = 3.33 metres); (in the city) population despite large, still no more than 3,000 families. Nowadays (warring states), cities of 1,000 zhang wide, 10,000 families (have developed to the point that they) can see each others (on their smoke towers)." If we assume each family has 10 members, which is extremely conservative in a Chinese family, there is already a city with population of 100,000, and when cities this size can see each other on the horizon, these states did have the manpower to sustain centuries of warfare of a slautering nature. An estimate of the population of the then central China (i.e. north to great wall, south to Yangtze, west to Qin, east to sea) was approximately 20 million.

As we look at Qin's army system after Shang Yang's reform, which impleted conscription and enlisted every 50 of 100 farming male above 23 years old (merchants class exempted). Services started in hometown for 1 month, then change base to the capital for 1 year, and then change base at the border for 1 year. The rest of the weaker 50 men stayed home for agricultural production. During the battle of Changping, the conscription was temporarily changed to every male above 15 that lives east of the Yellow River. At the eve of uniting China, Qin has an army of approximately 600,000. After unification, instead of reducing the size of the army, Qin chose to expand it further with the resources it acquired from the six fallen states to expand the Empire up north and down south, which led to its overthrown in merely 15 years due to social unsustainability.

It must be most inappropriate to compare Rome to China even at the same period, especially Mediterranean Europe, near east and north Africa never have the same amount of population to back an army that size. It does not have the fertile land as in central China to produce agricultural yields that can sustain that kind of population. It was also spread across 3 continents with a sea in the middle whereas in China the stage was focus in 10 provinces in today's map, often enemy cities were within tens of kilometers in today's measurement and these states must out-grow its component and to prevent from being out-grown (i.e. slaugter when possible) in order to defend itself. Maoyingkiu 02:06, 1 October 2007 (UTC)