Talk:Psalm 23

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Articles for deletion This article was nominated for deletion on 27/3/2006. The result of the discussion was keep.
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Contents

[edit] Removal of POV OR

Psalm 23 when examined and compared is very similar to a hymn sung to Osiris, a pagan saviour-figure in ancient Egyptian mythology which preachings and life in many senses is similar to that of the Christian saviour-figure Jesus. The original hymn appealed to Osiris, the Good Shepherd to lead those who have died to the "green pastures" and the "still waters" of the nefer-nefer land, Osiris was to restore the soul to the body and give protection in the "valley of the shadow of death".

When sung in connection to a prayer, the prayer began with "O'Amen, O'Amen, who are in heaven" and also ended with "Amen" as the end of every prayer. Although the etymology of "Amen" is different, there is great similarity.

I have removed the above paragraph for the following reasons:

  1. To state that Ps23 is 'very simillar' to another work is POV (and perhaps even OR). Says whom? If some schollar has made this comparison, we may say 'x has suggested', or (if the evidence alows) 'many scholars suggest'. But we cannot state a judgement as an objective fact.
  2. To say Osiris is is like Jesus is also POV. Says whom? In what ways?
  3. None of the material is referenced in any way. --Doc ask? 13:31, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Response to removal

Several scholars (i.e. the as of 2005 late Alan Dundes) have made clear the similarity, read the hymn for you self, I don't have it here any more but I read it as part of a study on Egyptian mythology for class, it was about as different to Psalm 23 as King James version is to the newest translation. Merely rewtritten that is, probably due to retranslation of the psalm anyway.

Don't make all religion stuff so holy the origins can't be questioned, for they have been several times.

Reasons for readding:

  1. One will have to judge for one self how great the similarity is, but the striking similarity has been made aware of several times by several scholars (for example see above).
  2. Alan Dundes himself made several points to show the similarity with other saviour-type heroes like Herakles, Osiris, Dionysos, Horus etc.. Though he's not exactly alone in that area.
  3. Study the book of Am-Tuat (yes, you deleted the reference) yourself and have a look. ---ramz- ask? 01:25, 27 March 2006 (CET)
I deleted an amazon link, we don't do those - reference the book per WP:CITE if you want, but not an Amazon advert. Yes, we can record that several scholars suggest that there are similarities between Ps 23 and and Egyptian song, but we can't say whether they are right or wrong to do so (that's POV or OR). Again we could record that some scholars note similarities between Jesus and Osiris (again not saying whether thay are correct or not), but that's not directly relevent to this Hebrew Psalm anyway. I've removed your version, please re-write it in conformity to WP:NPOV if you wish. --Doc ask? 14:10, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
If you think it's not NPOV then rewrite it yourself instead of erasing the entire section. You ask for reference and when I provide it, you delete it! I've seen liks to bookpages on Amazon several times. But well, fine, leave the link abcent then, but don't snack up a "citation needed" then. Regarding the connection Osiris-Jesus, the psalm/hymn obviously enough plays quite a great point there being as similar in both religions and regarding both figures and this very connection has been academically regarded as you admitted yourself. No, we can't say that they are right or wrong, but we can mention their statements. We can mention there's a debate here, we can mention why they've made the connection (Being the similarity). ---ramz- ask? 20:31, 27 March 2006 (CET)
OK, I've cleaned it up and de-POV'd it. Since this is a Jewish Psalm comparisons between Osiris an Jesus are irrelevant - that material belongs elsewhere (try Jesus). You do stlll need a citation, not an amazon link, please insert into a 'reference' section the name of the book in question, the author, publisher and page numbers . If you can't give a real citation, then all the material will need to be removed. --Doc ask? 19:09, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
I've removed the 'Amen' material, as Psalm 23 does not end with 'Amen'. You also infered that every prayer ends with Amen, that's palpably false. You also refered to 'both religions', I was not at all sure which religions you were refering to. --Doc ask? 19:12, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
I agree, this version is more compact and satisfying (less beating around the bush), though Alan Dundes is hardly alone in making this remark, I just used him as an example, so the more non-subjective "Scholars" is more a more agreeable term.
I've rewritten the "both religions" to "Judaism/Christianity and Egyptian Mythology", Amen is traditionally used as the ending of a prayer in Christianity and Judaism so I'd say the expression is justifiable. Note that I've have not written that Amen is used in the hymn itself, only in connection to prayer in Egyptian Mythology. ---ramz- ask? 21:55 27 March 2006 (CET)
Amen is not in Psalm 23, only in settings of it. If you want to compare the general Judeo-Christian use of Amen to that of Egyptian mythology, I suggest you contribute to the Amen article. --Doc ask? 20:08, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
Naming the scholar is better than using the generic 'Scholars say'. That could cover many/most or two very minor ones that no one has heard of. 'Scholars' unqualified constitutes weasel words --Doc ask? 20:13, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
Many scientists regard the theory of relativity to be true, still if I provide you with the name of a reknown physics professor, we wouldn't write that only he regards the theory to be true. Neither do we write a number of names if there are several who have made this recognition. Since it's an accepted theory supported by several scientists we write something along the lines of: "Modern-day scientists regard the theory to be true". The connection in this article is recogniced academically (there are several who notice the connection, in other words it's a theory). Therefore "Sholars" (like "scientists") seems more appropriate than finding and writing a list of all those who recognice the connection.
What's up with the possible detetion of the article btw? Psalm 23 should be noticable enough to be on Wikipedia. ---ramz- ask? 13:30, 29 March 2006 (CET)


Does anyone have the actual text of the Egyptian prayer? I'd be very interested in seeing it and I think it would be worth adding it as an external link in the paragraph about the possible connections, or if there is truely a debate among scholars on it, it could have its own article or more prominent Controversy section. I searched the Am-Tuat on the internet but didn't find any passage that resembled Psalm 23.

The section regarding Jewish uses talks about it being recited between hand washing and the blessing over bread. This is patently false (as far as I know), as there is a (AFAIK) universal custom not to speak at this time. Singing a psalm would not be in line with that custom. If someone knows of a community where this is practiced, I'd love to hear about it.-Ze'ev

[edit] In popular culture

Isn't there a part in Titanic where one of the passengers is reciting this psalm and Jack asks if he could walk through that valley a little faster?74.225.50.69 13:05, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

In the movie 'In Cold Blood' (1967) this psalm is recited when Perry Smith is about to hang.

In the movie 'Infamous' (2006) this psalm in recited during the execution scene.

I notice the 'In popular culture' sections are common in wikipedia, but this seems like overkill to try and reference all of these mentions in movies, books, etc. It's Psalm 23, it's in everything. :P Isn't it enough to say it's common in popular culture, music, films, etc? Bane1998 (talk) 08:01, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

  • Further... who decides which musical settings are 'notable'? Should wikipedia strive to include every reference of the Psalm? Bane1998 (talk) 08:04, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Judaica Press

I like having their translation in this article, but i am concerned about possible copyright violation. What is our basis for including it?--agr 02:37, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Psalm 23:4

This article is nothing more than a comparison (and an incomplete one, at that) of one verse out of this well-known Psalm. If it needs to be kept, it should be combined with the article on the complete Psalm. Quidam65 17:21, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Alice In Chains

I am aware that said line is quoted in Sickman, but "My Cup Runneth Over" is a line in their song "Bleed The Freak" as well, should that not be mentioned too? User:Jagged Fel —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.253.219.130 (talk) 10:38, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Recent Vandalism

I have noticed over the last couple of weeks that this page has been edited regulary be several IP's. They have been reverting the old english translations with modern versions of Psalm 23 without seeming to understand the idea. Please leave these translations AS IS, as these were how they originally looked when translated across to old english. I appreciate people's efforts in cleaning Wiki, but please read the article and the CONTEXT that the article is written - what appear to be spelling mistakes are sometimes deliberate due to translations in documents etc. Thank you Floorwalker 22:59, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Drop text

It is proposed on Talk:Psalms to drop the text of psalms from the individual psalm articles. If you wish to weigh in, please do so there. Tb (talk) 21:27, 9 March 2008 (UTC)