Talk:Programme for International Student Assessment

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I have deleted a link to a web page that was irelevant in my opinion.

Contents

[edit] Hong Kong

Hong Kong is a country? Morhange 18:41, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Until the end of 1997 it was a British colony. Look it up, we are on the Internet after all. Padillah (talk) 18:44, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Bias (NPOV violation)

There is clear violation of the Wikipedia NPOV policy in the first section. It needs to be fixed.

Sendhil 19:16, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Howcome?

I've added some more info on TIMSS and PIRLS; hopefully this cleans up the problems with bias? If not, please explain in more detail why the article is biased. Saint|swithin 08:12, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] PISA math comparison

The part I reverted is based on the multiple comparisons of mean performance of math. scale. Please refer to page 90 [1]. Certain parts of comparsion Finland occupied the first place. Coloane 23:23, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Removal of USA data from 2006 table

I have removed the information:
"United States ranked 35th out of a total of 57 countries in the math survey"
"United States ranked 29th out of a total of 57 countries in the science survey"
from the 2006 table, it appears to have been put there to support the discussion below regarding the effects of spending levels on results. However there is already a sufficient example included in the body of the discussion. The correct way to include the USA's data would be to include every country's results in the table. I'm not sure if this is necessary, but if anybody enjoys making tables, then feel free!

Lewyblue (talk) 18:07, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

It is necessary to put back the information of the US over there so that we can figure out the effects of spending levels on results, that is the first reason. The second reason is we need to think and find out the reason why the US has such poor performance in every aspects so that this article can expand a bit? Coloane (talk) 21:36, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

your first reason has merit however it is already mentioned in the previouse section, if you feel that the information should be in the table for ease of veiwing then include the whole list to avoid conflict. your second reason is well intentioned but stupid. making somthing worse so as to encourage improvement, were you perhaps educated in the us?59.154.24.147 (talk) 16:08, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Thank for your personal attacks. I don't think to make a whole table is necessary. The US is one of the most important country in the world and most readers do need to figure out why the American students performed poorly in every aspects. That is why the info. of USA is quite necessary in that table. It is quite shameful indeed but we want to know the fact, that's it! Coloane (talk) 16:22, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

I’m sorry for any offence, I meant that last comment as a joke. I do admit that it is hard to convey this over such an impersonal medium so I apologise again. I agree with you that making a whole table would be over the top but I also feel that including the US on the presumption that "The US is one of the most important country in the world and most readers do need to figure out why the American students performed poorly in every aspects" is not only not NPOV but arrogant on the behalf of Americans. A better way of doing this would be to include a separate section, perhaps "united states performance". The inclusion of the US information on the list is unnecessary in that it is a duplication, with the information already stated in the previous section. Furthermore the reason for including the information in the article to start with was as an example of the disparity between education spending and results, something which the table does not show. Therefore the presence of the information in the table indicates only the self importance that Americans feel, which is not the subject of this article. i hope the inclusion of indonesia, a country where the people are equally important as americans, shows just how misplaced the information is. 59.154.24.147 (talk) 15:55, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

  • I think English Wikipedia is mainly for American. That is why I am not completely wrong to add the US on that table. If you would like to add Indonesia, I strongly suggest that you had better create an article in Indonesian Wikipedia for Indonesian readers. Coloane (talk) 16:21, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

That shows extreme ignorance, English is the most common language in the world, as well as arrogance, even if it is mostly used by Americans this does no make it an American encyclopaedia. The US is not special and should not be treated such, it is the idea that Americans have that the US is somehow superior to other countries that results I much of the anti-Americanism in the world. As I have said there is no reason for the inclusion of that data in the table, if you feel it should be there is trongly suggest you make a new artice about american performance in pisa. i resent the fact you feel that information about non english speaking countries does not belong on an english language website.59.154.24.147 (talk) 15:09, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

sorry coloane but the other person is right, im sure you dont mean anything by it but having america in the table is a bit presumtious. i also dont think it is nessecary to the article which seems to be mainly about pisa and not the results.Grinchsmate (talk) 17:54, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

To have the US on that table is necessary because we need to figure out the average of OECD, including those which are significantly rated above or below. This section didn't finish yet and expansion is necessary. However, I don't have much time to write because I am improving the article of Macau so I can re-nominate it over FAC a bit later. After this, I will come back and write in a more objectively over here. Coloane (talk) 18:04, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
In that case is it not better to leave it correct and only change things when you can do it properly instead of leaving a half finished, messy article. Grinchsmate (talk) 18:17, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
I don't understand! so actually what do you want? Coloane (talk) 18:21, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
I want a quality article. I don’t want something that has random bits of information tacked on here and there. I fully support any move to improve the article but I don’t think that it should be left in a transition state while waiting for the editor to have the time. Grinchsmate (talk) 18:26, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Request for 3O

This looks pretty straight-forward: The title says "List of top ten..." so it should be a list of the top ten. If the U.S. didn't make it to the top ten then that can be pointed out and discussed in a relevant section. Assertions about the importance of the U.S. or the prevalence of the English language have no place in this argument. The criteria for the list are self-defining, if the U.S. doesn't meet those criteria then they don't get on the list. It may be more direct to make a list of what countries spend and what their ranking is. Or GNP vs. ranking. But as the list stands, the U.S. simply doesn't qualify. Padillah (talk) 18:00, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

There is nothing related to assert any importance of the US. It is just a co-incidence. To put the US on that table is just simply to show certain performance of OECD country in PISA. Coloane (talk) 18:08, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
If the table is there to provide information to further an argument then qualify the table to include data representative of your argument. That's why I say, if you want to reformat the table as one that presents GNP vs. PISA score or something like that then fine. If you want to reformat the table to be of certain country's PISA scores (this would then satisfy the "founding member of OECD" argument) then reformat it. As it stands none of the other 20 founding members are represented in the list except as they fall in the "Top Ten" standings, this gives undue weight to the U.S. scores, either from the point that they are low for all the money being spent or they are important regardless of how high they are. Are you suggesting that the sentence "The U.S. placed a mere 35th on the Math section" by itself somehow doesn't convey the same information as when it's in the Top Ten list? If you need another table to support a setion then make another table. If you want to get rid of this table in favor of another that represents something different let's discuss it... but, as it stands, the table is for Top Ten and the U.S. doesn't qualify (nor does the argument that it's included as a founding OECD member since the other 19 founding members are conspicuously absent). Padillah (talk) 18:20, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
So then the inclusion of the United Kingdom is just as valid as the United States, if this is the case why did you delete the other user’s changes, unnecessary though they were.Grinchsmate (talk) 18:13, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
If we add the UK together with the US, the layout will be hurt. Coloane (talk) 18:15, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
I wasn’t suggesting that we add the UK. I was just saying that the other user has a point; going to the trouble of changing the UK to the US implies a POV. Grinchsmate (talk) 18:19, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
so what do you want?? Coloane (talk) 18:22, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
I believe he's trying to point out the POV of including one country "because it's a founding member of the OECD" but leaving out the other 19 founding member countries. Padillah (talk) 18:25, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
Anyway! I will revert what you did tomorrow! Coloane (talk) 18:27, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
Sorry but I feel that would be vandalism.

1. It would make the article worse 2. It would result in a POV being expressed, weather inadvertently or not. And I will report it, especially after this discussion. Grinchsmate (talk) 18:31, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Coloane, you are more than welcome to edit however you see fit. Please understand, a third opinion was asked for so I came to this page to offer one. I made my argument and covered all the points. I left the issue open for discussion. I then made changes congruent with my opinion. If you feel slighted there are avenues to discus this. Please take this to an administrator or an admin notice board if you feel this strongly. If you want to talk about why you feel so strongly, please tell me your side. Padillah (talk) 18:40, 7 January 2008 (UTC)