Talk:Prayer in Christianity

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[edit] NPOV, Uncited statements, Tone

There are a lot of statements in this article that are either subjective and stated as fact, or are questionable and not backed by any source. I have removed the claim that their are "many documented cases" of people speaking in tongues and being understood by speakers of other languages, because I can find no reputable source documenting this phenomenon. I also removed the reference to speaking-in-tongues.net , because it's not an encyclopedic source. I think it might make sense to merge the whole glossolalia section with the main Glossolalia article. I also have added a "disputed" tag to the article. mistercow 05:30, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV

Please check this article for adherence to out NPOV policy, and for factual accuracy. As written (Oct. 12, 2004) it seems a bit biased, and not representative of all Christian groups. It seems to be written from the bias of a Christian believer. It certainly needs a historical context. RK 00:11, Oct 13, 2004 (UTC)

I cut the following section from the article. It's a sermon. I put it here in case someone wants to use some of it for a more encyclopedic rewrite. dab (ᛏ) 08:34, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Paradoxes

There are a number of philosophical paradoxes involving prayer to an omnipotent God, namely:

If a person deserves God to give him the thing he prays for, why doesn't God give it to him, even without prayer? And if a person is not deserving of it, then even if that person does pray and request it, should it be given just because of his prayer? Why should it be necessary to pray with speech? Doesn't God know the thoughts of all people? If God is omniscient (all-knowing) then doesn't God know what we are going to ask Him for even before we pray? How can a human being hope to change God's mind? Why should human prayers affect God's decisions? Do human beings actually have the ability to praise an omniscient and omnipotent God? Praising God is difficult to do without describing God, yet how can a finite human being know anything about God's ultimate nature? This question was the subject of heated debate among many religious philosophers; one such debate took place in the 14th century between Gregory Palamas and Barlaam of Calabria.

There are many Christian approaches to these paradoxes. No one approach is authoritative for all of Christianity, or even for all of one particular Christian denomination. However, the following responses give some example of how some Christian laypeople respond to such paradoxes:

One Christian reponse is to say that God doesn't simply give a person what he needs in such a manner as to obviate prayer because God is concerned that Man has turned away from God; God knows what Man needs, and the primary thing Man needs is to turn to the Creator. This idea has its roots in the belief that humanity fell from grace through the sin of pride. God gives Man a chance to return to God, and prayer is an act by which Man shows his good will to God. A similar answer is available to why God knows what we are going to pray before we pray: indeed God does know, but God insists that we orient ourselves rightly. And we don't know what we are going to do until we do it, so we can make ourselves pray, as we act in time, such that we act conclusively in a way that shows our love for God.

Why should it be necessary to pray with speech? It isn't: Christian prayer subsumes affective and contemplative prayer that is effectively speechless. How can a human hope to change God's mind? God is outside of time and already knows the outcome, but we act within time, and must act with true charity, which we show through prayer. Do we have the ability to praise our Creator? Indeed, much as we might praise our own parents. Praise of God is praise of God's infinite glory and goodness; it is certainly true that we can never praise God enough. For this reason one can always go further in the unitive way. Indeed, the theologians affirm that to stop going forward toward God is to commence slipping backward. All of the foregoing could be richly footnoted with points from Scripture, the Summa, Denziger, and the Church Fathers.

The paradoxes need not be a problem if people understand the concept of covenant between God and humankind. A covenant is a binding agreement between two sides; both sides agreeing to certain stipulations and actions. Humankind praying to God is an aspect of the covenant which humans must fulfill. God could grant people what was on their mind but this would be in opposition to the covenant. God answers prayers based on his covenant with us. This covenant goes back in history to the time of the Hebrew Patriarchs.

[edit] information?

do we have information about catholic liturgy? I was looking for information about

  • Sub Tuum Praesidium
  • Gloria Patri
  • Gloria in Excelsis Deo
  • the Litany of Loreto

(to link from here. dab (ᛏ) 08:31, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)


[edit] Feminine?

"the soul is feminine in Christian theology"

-- really? I don't think it is, but I might be wrong - I know that some Gnostics saw the soul as feminine, but I'm not sure if that is mainstream Christian theology.


I'll look it up later and if no-one objects I'll make the edit tomorrow.

jim.whitson@gmail.com (sun 18:14)

The Greek word for soul is feminine, as are most abstract substantives such as "love," "justice," "excellence," etc. My understanding is that this avoids a lot of problematic homo-eroticism around a gendered Christ and "His" church. - Rorybowman 18:42, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
I see. But is it correct to say that "the soul is feminine in Christian *theology*"? 82.152.225.137 07:46, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Neutrality

I don't believe this article is true; part of it, like the speaking in tounges part seems to be making a point against it. 86.132.190.15 17:18, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Scientific study

I have removed the recommended merging with efficacy of prayer section 13 of this article, Scientific study, because I feel that this paragraph's inclusion is extremely important to anyone doing research on Christian magic rituals. As the rest of the article more or less assumes that Christian magic rituals work, I think that it is of the utmost importance that the Scientific study caveat be included to maintain the neutrality of the article, as well as to provide a more thorough factual understanding of the foundational claims of the Christian prayer phenomenon. ChrisRay6000 (talk) 16:49, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Matthew 6:5-6

Anyone fancy a go at trying to rationalise the usual act of Christian public prayer in services and other venues in view of this Bible verse which shows Jesus advising against it? I probably wouldn't be that good an editor for this section as I am intensely biased on this subject. I would like to see an honest examination of this verse and its attendant implications. Heliotic (talk) 22:48, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Merge proposal

I think Affirmative prayer should be merged into this article. Addhoc (talk) 20:30, 19 February 2008 (UTC)