Talk:Phi Gamma Delta

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Fraternities and Sororities WikiProject Phi Gamma Delta is part of the Fraternities and Sororities WikiProject, an effort to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to Greek Life on the Wikipedia. This includes but is not limited to International social societies, local organizations, honor societies, and their members. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, visit the project page, where you can join the project, and/or contribute to the discussion.
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[edit] Restrictions on Lettering

The article states the FIJI is the only fraternity that limits the use of its letters. This is not true. Chi Psi, for example, limits public exhibition of its letters (which is why it is referred to as "The Lodge" at most universities, instead of by its letters)--Velvet elvis81 20:52, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Okay, but is Chi Psi actually required to limit the usage of their letters by international by-laws? Several fraternities actually have terms for their organization that are more used then their actual letters for one reason or another, but I'm still under the impression that Fiji's the only one that specifically has it written down that the usage of our letters is prohibited to certain locations. RPH 21:33, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

I would imagine that most fraternities that do limit it do so by tradition, not through any written code. But the article states that FIJI's limits are based on tradition. If there is some written bylaw, then change the article to reflect that. That said, the bylaw vs. tradition seems to me a dubious differentiation--a distinction w/o a difference. I think info about limiting the letters is article-worthy, but I don't think we should put that FIJI's the only one to do it. --Velvet elvis81 10:00, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I went ahead and edited the use of letters section since no one responded. If you think it would be more appropriate to say it's the only one to do it through bylaws instead of saying it's one of the few to limit the use, feel free.--Velvet elvis81 23:17, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I did exactly that. Also the Greek letters for the chapter designation can be used anywhere and I clarified the language to avoid any ambiguity. The fraternity's international bylaws prevent the members from using Phi Gamma Delta but not other fraternity related Greek letters or slogans. Ekspiulo 06:47, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

I added a tradition of getting a tattoo on the inside of the right ankle> my chapter used to do this though it was not official policy and in fact, frowned upon, but I thought it was relevant to the discussion. Mywikieditor2007 18:26, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Complete List of all Chapters?

  • The edits done by 149.149.150.56 made me consider the possibility of listing by time of foundation all the currently active Fiji Chapters in the United States and Canada. As there are over 100 such chapters (and colonies), I realize that this would be a difficult task, yet I believe that this change would improve the quality of the article greatly. As it is though, I'll just add the DePauw Chapter to it and make changes as the time becomes available. RPH 20:53, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Actual greek letters

I know that FIJI only allows its members to use their greek letters in seven places. Wikipedia is not a member of Phi Gamma Delta and there are no legal measures to protect the use of your letters here. We are legally allowed to report on the facts. I have placed the actual greek letters on in the article, phi gamma delta. This is not the first time I have done this, my user page has been vandalized twice by what I assume to be a FIJI member because I put your greek letters on wikipedia. This is not going away. There is much wikipedia precident that all relavent content be placed on wikipedia, just look for pictures of Mohammed. In the interest of conformaty, you cannot avoid this. --metta, The Sunborn 18:42, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

While I was one of the people that disagreed with the idea of putting the actual Greek letters in the article in the past, I am more inclined to agree with your point of view in this regard. However, that article should make mention that Fijis (such as myself) are limited by tradition from placing their Greek letters in more than six locations. I'll make such an edit to the article shortly. RPH 04:35, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

I've put the Greek letters back, not least because the editor who removed them messed up the formatting of the Infobox! Before anyone says it: yes, I am a complete outsider (I'm not even American), but actually that's the point: Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a community resource, and should not be biased towards (or against) a specific group's wishes, however important to them personally. There are apparently no legal restrictions on the use of these Greek letters here, nor are there any privacy concerns, so they should stay.

Sunborn makes an excellent point about precedent: we have pictures of Mohammed, and I think that's right, despite it being something which millions of Muslims object to in principle. That being so, it just looks silly for a fraternity, no matter how strongly held its members' feelings, to be given special treatment. I think RPH above has found the most sensible solution: to retain the Greek letters, but to include a prominent explanation of the convention in the main text.

Finally, I'll not that the intro to this article seems overly long and rather POV in places ("For over 158 years, the Phi Gams have lived by their values of Friendship, Knowledge, Service, Morality, and Excellence" reads as though it were taken from an advertising flyer), but I'm not doing anything about that as I don't have the required knowledge. The only edit I've made is to the letters, as explained above. Loganberry (Talk) 23:36, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

I will address two points: Use of the greek letters, and content of the page overall. Yes, the comment about "158 years of blah blah blah" may sound like an advertisement, but it is essentially true. The values of the Fraternity are indeed Friendship, Knowledge, Service, Morality, and Excellence, the fraternity has existed for over 158 years now, and those values are pretty much the same now as they were at the inception of the fraternity. Now, more importantly - use of the greek letters on the Wikipage for FIJI. The greek letters are not what we use in order to be recognized, nor do we use them as our name officially in any capacity. The official name of the fraternity is "The Fraternity of Phi Gamma Delta, Inc." For purposes of identification, we use "FIJI," "Phi Gam," and "Phi Gamma Delta." Outside of the seven places mentioned in the article, we NEVER use or mention our letters. Our jerseys read "FIJI." And though the chapter house will almost always have the greek letters on display, they also tend to have "FIJI" or "Phi Gamma Delta" in a similarly elegant and obvious place, because for the most part when people see the greek letters they do not recognize what fraternity it is, and only when they read the letters one by one do they (maybe) then say, "Oh... FIJI." I do not think putting the greek letters helps in any way, and actually would suggest that for the purposes of people seeing what our letters look like, maybe we could include pictures of the flag and badge, for instance. What I don't agree with is the assertion that all fraternity greek letters are up. FarmHouse, for instance, doesn't HAVE greek letters (publicly, at least). Oxfordcomma (Talk) 18:24, 18 May 2006 (EST)


for the NPOV stance of wikipedia, "158 years of blah blah blah" may sound like an advertisement, but it is essentially true. if something is true, then it can be sourced. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia that doesn't operate on heresay.

As for the letters, as long as the fraternity house has them, the world sees these greek letters as a symbol of the fraternity. All fraternities accord a symbolism to their letters and that is why the infobox has a slot for it.

However, that said, I have created a phi gamma flag, and placed it in the position of the letters in the infobox. this should solve the problem.--metta, The Sunborn 23:18, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Replying to both of you... firstly, the flag solution seems reasonable, and actually I think it's rather an elegant solution; I like it. The letters are clear, but on the flag, which according to the article is one of the "allowed" locations for said letters, so hopefully all sides will now be satisfied. Secondly, though, the "158 years of..." section is a claim, not a verifiable fact. It may very well be "essentially true", but that is not enough in itself for an article on Wikipedia, where a a neutral point of view is a non-negotiable (Jimbo Wales' word [1]) requirement.
I'm not going to do any more editing on this article, however. As I said in my previous comment, I'm not knowledgeable enough about this fraternity, or indeed about the whole culture. After all, the fraternity/sorority system is essentially non-existent in UK universities. (Google testing for "university fraternity" gives 35,200, but adding "site:uk" reduces that to just 40, of which none at all refer to an actual UK-based fraternity... because they don't exist!) I just happened to stop by one day and felt it might be useful to have an outsider's perspective. Loganberry (Talk) 00:32, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

The Greek Letters for FIJI are legally trademarked. Thus, the fraternity's wishes over this issue should be met. Nevertheless, the current solution with the flag is a great way to resolve the issue.152.1.159.146 17:47, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

i agree, an elegant solution.Mywikieditor2007 18:29, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
I agree as well. FIJI is allowed to respect their organization's wishes, and we should honors theirs as well. The flag is a great idea. Jmlk17 21:01, 30 May 2007 (UTC)


I want to add a reference in the article to the above discussion. It provides a good concrete example of the use/non-use issues of the fraternity's letters. Any objections? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.68.242.6 (talk) 15:16, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Meaning of "FIJI"

Obviously Fiji is an island and the fraternity sponsors "island"-themed events. However, I doubt that the alternate name FIJI was used from the inception of the fraternity. The article needs to be stated when "FIJI" began to be used and for what reason. Also, it needs to be stated exactly when in the fraternity's history the use of the Greek letters was limited. Badagnani 08:32, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I added partial information about the nickname. However I cannot find any sources that tell exactly how New York University came up with the nickname so I have not posted an origin to that.

FIJI is a shortened version of the Fraternity's full name. "Fee Gamma Delta(Phonetic)" is shortened to Fee-Gee (FIJI). The pronunciation of the greek letter 'Phi' has changed from "Fee" to "F-eye" in the American lexicon making the derivation of the FIJI nickname less obvious.152.1.159.146 17:47, 12 March 2007 (UTC) --Savagemonitor 01:06, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:FIJIcrest.png

Image:FIJIcrest.png is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 06:12, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Phi Gamma Deltas in the Olympics

I'm trying to compile a list of all members of Phi Gamma Delta who have won at least one Olympic medal. As a (relatively) new user, and first-time contributor, I hope I'm doing this right. I have played in the "sandbox" and I know enough to be dangerous! PGD48 02:43, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Improving this article

Would it be a good idea to move the lists to another page (in the same manner as the Olympic Medalists page)? PGD48 03:47, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Substantial changes

I have just made some substantial changes to the site and I'm looking for feedback. Does anyone have any comments on or suggestions for the result?

In keeping with my understanding of Wikipedia's format, I will move the most of the lists to a different page. Only a very few "very famous Fijis" will be on the main page. The rest will be on a "List of Famous Phi Gams" page. PGD48 01:57, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Request tag removal

Request that the "This article does not cite any references or sources" tag be removed from this article. PGD48 14:30, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

You can remove it at any time. Just please be sure that the tag no longer applies in the article. Jmlk17 23:34, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
True, but I would prefer to have whoever put it there remove it. This article obviously didn't meet someone's standard of "verifiable" but I'm not certain whether it meets their standard now or not. I think it does because it does cite sources. It's certainly better than it was. If no one removes the tag in the near future I'll probably do it (and increase the article to a "B" quality grade while I'm at it). Cheers!PGD48 23:31, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
Sounds good. Not sure who put it up though. Jmlk17 23:39, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Famous alumni

I understand the importance of famous alumni, but this seems like overkill. Why is there a full paragraph in the opening about various famous alumni stats? It's important but it shouldn't be in the opening of the article. Perhaps further down. Fiji is not characterized by famous alumni. Also, why is there a small list of "very famous Fijis" on this list and then another list on another page? They should all be included on the same page because "very famous Fijis" is subjective. 71.106.154.171 06:08, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the input. Point taken about the opening paragraph. I'll move it further down. The purpose of the small "very famous Fijis" list is to not overdo the list on the main page. It was much larger not too long ago. As you can see by the official Phi Gamma Delta websites [(http://www.phigam.org/history/Lists/historic_lists.htm) and (http://www.phigam.org/famousFijis.aspx?pageid=95)], quite a lot of research has been done to create lists of many types. These lists served as bases for some of the lists on the Wiki article. Having the condensed version, so to speak, of Famous Fijis on the main Wiki page seemed like the way to go. I notice that many of the Wiki pages of other large fraternities have lists of about that length in their main pages, so Phi Gamma Delta's "quota" of names on the main page is roughly middle-of-the-pack. And I would also say that a "famous members" list for any fraternity would be just as subjective. Does anyone else agree/disagree with having a "very famous" list on the main page?PGD48 00:39, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Phi Gamma Delta material

As a proud Phi Gam, I wish to only see information on Wikipedia that is factual and within the bounds set forth by the Fraternity of Phi Gamma Delta. That said, I have (recently) contacted the International Headquarters of Phi Gamma Delta about the content of some of the articles here and it is the opinion of IHQ that none of the material was contrary to Phi Gamma Delta's internal policies.

If you're a Fiji and would like to discuss this matter further, this would be one place to do so. Another possibility would be for you to contact IHQ directly and express your concerns. We all want the Phi Gamma Delta articles/information to be as accurate and appropriate as possible so I encourage you to do what you think is right.

Perge! PGD48 (talk) 04:18, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

As a proud FIJI, I have mixed feelings about the content revealed in this article. While I'm not sure who originally compiled it, it does cite the Purple Pilgrim, a book which by many standards if I am not mistaken is to be kept secret. If I am mistaken, correct me, but if not would this be grounds to propose for the removal of this article or would action need to be taken through IHQ?

Damn Proud. -J : March 03, 2008 1:46AM (CST| GMT-6) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.137.220.206 (talk) 07:46, 3 March 2008 (UTC)


As far as the content revealed, all of it can be found on phigam.org which is hardly a secret. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dpuaji (talk • contribs) 19:52, 16 March 2008 (UTC)


J and Dpuaji, First of all I thank you both for your concern about the content here. Second, I have asked for (and received) written assurances from IHQ that the content displayed today (March 19, 2008) on these Fiji Wikipedia pages is fully acceptable. In fact, IHQ say they are "happy" to see it there. Also per IHQ, the information in the Purple Pilgrim is not secret. PGD48 (talk) 02:56, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

I am proud to be a FIJI! Though I respect IHQs decision to "ok" this page, I'm pretty pissed at it's presentation and complete disregard for our traditions. Wikipedia is suppose to be an encyclopedia. This site should be void of personal opinions or inferences. This article not only mocks FIJI, but also Wikipedia. It lacks citing, is packed with first person opinions, and inaccurately portrays FIJI. Additionally, it never even acknowledges the true purpose of our organization. I am fine with someone writing about my fraternity online, and I am excited that someone has the interest to do so. However, this article was not given the time or consideration necesssary for ANY article on Wikipedia. PERGE! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.176.20.183 (talk) 01:51, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

There will always be vandals who put out misinformation on a particular subject, but the majority of the editors here strive for accuracy. What is the article specifically missing? Is there anything you can add to improve the article? Samwisep86 (talk) 03:39, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
I'm not sure I fully understand all of your complaints. For example, I count 44 references/citations on the bottom of the main page. And I don't see how Fiji is being "mocked" or "inaccurately" portrayed. That said, every legitimate Wikipedia user has the ability (and responsibility?) to improve these articles. Many contributors have added/changed article contents. What should the Fiji articles on Wikipedia look like? What would you like to see added, modified or deleted? Perge!PGD48 (talk) 13:01, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "one of the few"?

"Phi Gamma Delta is one of the few Greek-letter organizations in North America to limit the written display of its Greek letters." To me this indicates that there are other groups that limit the written display, but there is no sign of that in the reference. I would like to see it changed unless there is some way to reference other North American GLOs that do that. Naraht (talk) 13:21, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Naraht, A quick internet search didn't turn up anything so I'll change the text to read "Phi Gamma Delta limits the written dislay of its Greek letters". Thank you for your input. PGD48 (talk) 03:09, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
No problem.Naraht (talk) 10:13, 11 June 2008 (UTC)