Talk:Pharaoh

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[edit] Moses

There is no mention of Moses, the Exodus, or who might have been Pharaoh at the time on this page, though these matters are discussed elsewhere in Wikipedia.--69.236.186.94 00:45, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

I would suggest that this is because there is no Verifiable evidence that the events ever took place. (Please note, this is not an attack against J-C-I thought and beliefs. I would also not agree with adding to Human Evolution a section on the Navajo (and many other native American cultural groups) belief that some humans decended from rabbits, coyotes, ravens, cloud people, etc.) I am unsure whether this should be addressed in the wiki page or not. Anyone else have ideas? —Preceding unsigned comment added by IanCheesman (talk • contribs) 22:14, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] A few additions

Made a few additions ;-) But still the list is woefully short of complete. So far I've only put in ones that I can be sure are in chronological order, any others would just be (close) guesswork. --user:pb

[edit] Amenhotep

There are 2 entries for Amenhotep IV in the 'pedia: Akhenaton and Akhnaten - User:Olivier

Pick the best name and merge! -- Tarquin
I did an extensive Google search to see what the preferred spelling was, and moved the article to that. Ditto for the disambig pages for Ramesses, Tuthmosis, etc. See the individual talk pages for the rationale for each. Noel 01:18, 6 Mar 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Name

The Narmer article says that he succeeded Serket, but Serket is not on this list. Is he "The Scorpion of Egypt"? Serket was the name of a Scorpion goddess. RickK 04:45, 19 Jan 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Egyptian Chronology

Whoever wrote the dates for the year and or Pharaohs - you should tell what particular source you are using for your dates, not just that this is "one of many" possible dating schemes. john 05:46 24 May 2003 (UTC)

This page overlaps almost completely with Conventional Egyptian chronology. This one makes more sense as a "keeper", given the name (of the two, it's where I'd look for a full list). Not sure how to resolve the issue. -- Fab 23:46, 5 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I have some trouble with the Conventional Egyptian chronology page. In the first place, its dates for the 11th and 12th Dynasties are not the conventional dates at all - they are low dates. Those dynasties "standard" dates have been established for a long time, and are still used in fairly recent books. The page also, oddly, says that it's basing its list of the conventional chronology on David Rohl's Test of Time, which is a widely discredited revisionist work. The problem with the page here, as I see it, is that it provides no sources at all for the dates provided. john 20:47, 6 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I would be willing to use the sources I cited on Conventional Egyptian chronology (The Oxford History of Ancient Egypt and http://www.digitalegypt.ucl.ac.uk/) to redo the page, if others agree. However, I think it is pointless to have two pages which give esentially the same information. So before I start, I'd like to resolve that.

There is definitely still confusion over Egyptian dates. E.g. Reeves' "Valley of the Kings" uses the same dates as Wikipedia (which it says come from Baines' "Atlas of Ancient Egypt"), but Clayton's "Chronology of the Pharaohs" (a recent work) gives Tuthmosis I's reign as 1524-1518 (using a system which the author followed from Mumane's "Penguin Guide to Ancient Egypt"). Until there is rough consensus among Egyptologists, I think all we can do is pick one (so all the various pages are consisten), document which one we picked, and stick with it. Noel 01:18, 6 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Oops! When I said "dates as Wikipedia", I'd been reading the individual pages for various rulers. I see that Tuthmosis I is given on this page as 1525-1518, whereas on his page he's given as 1504-1492. Sigh. We really need to pick one chronology, and use it everywhere. Noel 01:57, 6 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Yes, most definitely. I suppose the question is: ought we to use time-worn dating systems which are familiar, but quite possibly somewhat incorrect, or more recent estimates which have not yet been accepted as a consensus? Some sense of what the most frequently used dates are would be helpful here. john 05:21, 6 Mar 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Hebrew

Why do we need a Hebrew translation and transliteration in this article? Should we include translations of every other language in the world? What makes Hebrew special? RickK 05:17, Jul 17, 2004 (UTC)

It's possible the word itself is of Hebrew origin; after all, the Hebrews and Egyptians were pretty intertwined back then. From the article: The term derives ultimately from the Egyptian words pr-o, meaning "Great House". It was not commonly used by the Egyptians themselves to refer to their monarchs, but is frequently used by modern historians due to its use in the Bible, especially the Book of Exodus.
In other words, it seems reasonable to have the Hebrew text, but I agree that the transliterations are unnecessary. When does Wikipedia get hieroglyphics support? ;) --Golbez 05:38, Jul 17, 2004 (UTC)
Wikipedia has hieroglyphics support. RickK 05:41, Jul 17, 2004 (UTC)
Yeah, I thought I remembered reading that. Kill a joke, why doncha. ;) Ah well, either way, I think the Hebrew text is relevant. Maybe not three different methods, though. --Golbez 05:46, Jul 17, 2004 (UTC)

Am I the only one who thinks that there should be a link to the article on the Biblical book of Exodus, if for no other reason then the massive part that the unnamed pharaoh plays in the book? - Zkion 20:13, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Cleanup

A cleaned up version is in Pharaoh/Temp. Please add any comments there or in its talk page - I intend to move it to the "live" version later this week. -- ALoan (Talk) 13:13, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)

In the bullet point mentioning Cleopatra there is this: "...and the fact Egyptians, Greeks, and Romans would probably not tolerate a black ruler." Which came as a bit of a suprise to me. Could someone expound on why this would be the case? I've never heard that romans, greeks or especially egyptians of antiquity would treat blacks differently than whites. The wikipedia article on racism also mentions nothing prior to the colonial period on the subject but of course thats no failing of clarity here. -- xiaou

[edit] Sibling Marriage

I disagree that it is an "open question" as to whether or not sibling marriages occurred. In addition to the historical record, there have been DNA tests confirming the close blood relation. Sibling marriage was at the core of Egyptian religion (Isis was the sister & wife of Osiris). When an Egyptian man married a woman who was not his sister by blood, he would formally adopt her as his "sister." Many such "adoption" papyri exist which indicate that this was a practice not unique to the Pharaohs. An edict of the Roman emperor Diocletian extended the ancient Roman prohibition against the children of incestuous marriages from inheriting property to the Egyptians. Why make such an edict if the practice were not widespread at the time?

[edit] God or Divine?

The "open question" of whether the Pharaohs were viewed as god or divine is like arguing whether light is a wave or a particle. Our modern delineations would have been nonsensical to the ancient Egyptians.

[edit] Hebrew???

is there any reason that hebrew translation should be included in the head section? i've deleted it and if anyone sees that there's a reason, plz tell me and I'll put it back.. --Mido 16:53, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

or arabic for that matter

Well someone added it back without discussing. But anyway, the Arabic translation however makes sense since Pharaohs are from Egypt which in this day and age primarily uses Arabic. Hebrew I guess is also relevant for similar reasons. Nil Einne 16:58, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
I would guess Hebrew is relevant because the English word "Pharaoh" derives from use of the word in the Old Testament, which was written in Hebrew. john k 17:25, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Open problems

Although I appreciate this is just an example list, it would be wise to order them by chronoligical age, if and when possible. E.g. Cleoptra should be last... Nil Einne 16:56, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I've removed the section, which was totally weird. The problems listed seem to be completely random. We don't even know the order of kings or have any idea of the length of their reigns for centuries of Egyptian history. Even for dynasties we know well, like the 18th, there's no fully agreed upon chronology. Relationships among monarchs are frequently not known. Over all, it would probably take far less time to say what we do know about the pharaohs than what we don't, because we barely know anything at all about even a well known pharaoh like Ramesses II, as compared to, say, a modern figure of comparable importance and longevity like Louis XIV. The list given was completely arbitrary, and gave no idea why these problems, out of all the huge number of things we don't know, were being listed on the main Pharaoh page. I think it's best for it to not be here. john k 17:30, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

what's with the "The Pharaoh of the Oppression and of the Exodus" it has a very righteous and propaganda feel. I suppose someone wants a list of anti-semitic pharaohs.

[edit] Etymology, tidying up

Reading the etymology section, I noticed that the paragraph was messy, leaping from one time period to another in a kind of random order. So I rearranged the information in a forward chronological order, in order to explain how the word evolved over time from one continuous line from *past to present*. Much better, methinks, and more understandable. Bon apétit.

I also noticed that the words for "pharaoh" in Hebrew, Arabic and so on are largely immaterial to the topic of pharaoh. We can list 100s of languages if we want to, ancient and modern. So what? We don't need Hebrew or Arabic to explain where the word came from! So I relocated all that to the section for "Pharaoh" in other languages if people feel the need to expand on that. --Glengordon01 23:20, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Female pharaohs

Is there any doubt there were female pharaohs in Egyptian history? Certainly not with Hatshepsut. It's been claimed in a recent edit by an anonymous user that "Wikipedia is contradictory" on the matter. However, Wikipedia is not an authority on any subject in itself. The point is what the academic consensus says on this. So while it has been the long-standing chauvanistic view (perhaps even based on biblical bias where female pharaohs are not mentioned) that only men can acquire the title of Pharaoh, there has been recent evidence accepted showing that these views are incorrect. Egyptian culture simply did not have the same attitudes towards gender and sex as we would expect through Victorian-coloured glasses. --Glengordon01 19:03, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Vandalism

"Sheldon was the coolest pharoh of mars in the eightenth century"

Someone added this to the top and I took the liberty of deleting it. Hope that's okay.

Totally okay. Obviously vandalism. And as we all know, Sheldon was the coolest "pharoh" of mars in the "eightenth" century until spelling was invented in the 19th, hehe <:P --Glengordon01 05:36, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] On Chronology and Female Pharaohs

I'd like to suggest that all dates link to a page discussing the major dating schema for Ancient Egypt. That might be the most comprehensive way to deal with the matter.

As to female pharaohs: Such a thing could never exist. Pharaoh was an inherently masculine concept. Hatshepsut was portrayed with a beard for a reason. That there were females who functioned as a Pharaoh is undeniable. I think perhaps the issue should be reworded to reflect this more exacting phraseology. To be something and to function as, or in the capacity of, something are two different things. I may function as a father, but I cannot be one. It is also an inherently masculine concept.

It seems to me that this issue is being viewed through reverse-chauvanistic glasses of our American culture. The Egyptians recognized that the blood was pasted through the female, but if a female could have become Pharaoh, why weren't there a great many more of them? The female's power lay in the royal blood coursing through her veins. The male had to marry a female of royal blood to pass that royal blood to his children. I have no doubt that there is now debate over this issue in our culture where everything is he/she, him/her encumbered, and where everyone is so afraid of offending anyone that they allow our so-called 'modern' views to be fobbed-off onto ancient cultures. We will never know the 'truth' unless we can divest ourselves of our cultural biases - and any Anthropologist worth their salt will tell you that this is impossible.

Perhaps we could represent both viewpoints on the pages which make reference to this issue?

[edit] A note on the Racial issue

That comment about Egyptians not tolerating a black ruler is absurd. The Nubian Dynasties were full of black rulers. As I've always understood it, the women were prized for fairer skin. Why? This was a sign that they did not have to work in the sun. It was a sign of gentility up until roughly the mid-20th century. Illogically, women suddenly want to look as if they spend their whole day working in the fields. Males were constantly portrayed as darker skinned. As to what the Greeks and Romans would have been likely to tolerate: I haven't any idea. There is no reason to believe that prejudice is that modern of a concept, but how much of it was based upon the shading of skin color....

[edit] GA rating

You cannot just declare something GA, it needs to be reviewed. Markh 11:17, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Jobs

What jobs do Pharoahs have?


~i'd love to know what jobs they have because i need them for my project right now

[edit] How to cover this term.

"Pharaoh" is a difficult term to explain due to the popular misconception that it is the egyptian word for king. If we treat this as if it is formally a reference to the king and then write an article on the Egyptian kings, we do a disservice to Egyptology and what the egyptian words actually mean. If we treat this as if it is formally a reference egyptian kingship, we neglect the fact that it did eventually become a title in the late period. And, if we adress all these aspects of the term, we run the risk of defining it so much that it makes a better wikitionary entry than wikipedia article. What really should this page include, and what should it not? Thanatosimii 05:30, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Google search

A Google search yields the following result for me:

Pharaoh - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Pharaoh was the ancient Egyptian name for the pimp of the south. The term began as a reference to the king's palace, but the meaning loosened over the ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharaoh - 65k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this

 — Adriaan (T★C) 19:49, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Note that pharaoh is only applicable to native Egyptian rulers. Greek rulers of Egypt, such as Cleopatra and Ptolemy XIII should not be referred to as pharaohs. 96.229.179.106 (talk) 02:59, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Merge Proposal

I propose we merge the article List of fictional Pharaohs into this article. The list is very short, and has little chance of getting any bigger. Plus it is an orphaned page.

[edit] Timeframe

The lead paragraph says that the term "pharaoh" is specific to the New Kingdom. However other articles give me the impression that it relates to all three egyptian kingdoms, if not the whole of ancient egypt. Perhaps somebody with more expertise could come up with a more accurate definition. BigBlueFish (talk) 16:28, 4 April 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Pharaohs in the Bible

This needs sources if it is to stay in. When I return home in 10 days I'll see what this says, if no one else can: The Identity of "King So" in Egypt (2 Kings XVII 4) Duane L. Christensen Vetus Testamentum, Vol. 39, Fasc. 2 (Apr., 1989), pp. 140-153 Doug Weller (talk) 18:38, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

  • I'm intrigued - how is it that this section completely fails to mention the Pharaohs of Exodus, surely the most prominent such to appear in the Bible? 116.240.181.125 (talk) 05:41, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
    • It's about named Pharaohs in the Bible, no named Pharaoh is connected with the Exodus in the bible. Doug Weller (talk) 08:10, 11 June 2008 (UTC)