Talk:Persecution of early Christians in the Roman Empire

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 WikiProject Religion
Religion Portal
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Religion, a project to improve Wikipedia's articles on Religion-related subjects. Please participate by editing the article, and help us assess and improve articles to good and 1.0 standards, or visit the wikiproject page for more details.
C This article has been rated as C on the Project's quality scale.
(If you rated the article please give a short summary at comments to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses.)
This article falls within the scope of the Interfaith work group. If you are interested in Interfaith-related topics, please visit the project page to see how you can help. If you have any comments regarding the appropriateness or positioning of this template, please let us know at our talk page


Christianity
Christianity Portal
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Christianity, an attempt to build a comprehensive guide to Christianity on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit this article, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion. If you are new to editing Wikipedia visit the welcome page to become familiar with the guidelines.
Start This article has been rated as Start-class on the quality scale.
Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the importance scale.
Assessment comments

Contents

[edit] New Testament-based passages

I understand the point that the only documentation that we have of persecution of early Christians by the Jews comes from the New Testament and that these allegations could be considered to be anti-Semitism rather than historical fact.

However, I believe that it is better to present the fact that these persecutions have been and still are considered by many Christians to be historical fact and then to present sources that challenge this view.

I would argue that the material that was deleted by User:Humus sapiens should be re-worked to present a more balanced view (i.e. to present the "facts" recorded in the NT as one perspective) rather than to delete it entirely.

I certainly think it is appropriate to point out to the reader that these allegations of persecution were the putative reason for anti-Semitism in later centuries.

--Richard 22:51, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Please see Talk:Persecution of Christians#New Testament-based passages. Those antisemitic allegations have a long and sad history, so I suggest we should be doubly careful around those. You wnated to rework them but all you've done is blind revert. ←Humus sapiens ну? 23:00, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
Tangential: Richard, I see that you created this article almost 20 days ago. Should the duplicate content be cut & pasted rather than simply copied? ←Humus sapiens ну? 23:09, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

The author of the Book of Revelation debatable. Stating that John the disciple as the author of Revelation is not necessary in a discussion of of martyrs. Save authorship issues for a discussion on Revelation.Ulmy923 19:49, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Good catch. Actually, the whole paragraph is irrelevant to its section ("Persecutions narrated in the New Testament") and inappropriately sourced (Foxe's Book of Martyrs, from the 16th century), so I've removed it. EALacey 10:41, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Persecutions of Christians by Nero according to Tacitus

I think it should at least have been noted within this article that the persecutions of christians by Nero are merely allegory and by no means an established fact, even if it is something apparently found within the Annals by Tacitus due to the fact that according to Tacitus_on_Jesus there is no consensus among the scientific community as to the accuracy or even authorship of the relevant portion of the Annals. It is possible and maybe even likely that the alleged persecutions of christians by Nero is a later interpolation to the Annals by christian editors. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.63.93.239 (talk) 05:41, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Also worth noting is the fact that the actual passage within the Annals asserts that christians may actually have been guilty of setting the fire, rather than asserting that Nero set the fire and placed the blame on the christians. It also doesn't say anything about wholesale persecution of christians but rather that christians who plead guilty of the crime were punished for it, though I find the means of punishment the more likely interpolation that would be original research on my part and not something to even consider for inclusion. Also when you consider the distance between Rome and Jerusalem, the apparent slowness of the spread of christianity throughout the world and the short span of time between 27AD and 68AD it becomes extremely unlikely that there was an "immense multitude" of christians in Rome to convict. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.63.93.239 (talk) 06:06, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

It has occasionally been suggested that the passage is an interpolation, but that's such a rare position that the general articles I've read on Roman persecution of Christians don't even mention it. (The source currently cited for that theory at Tacitus on Jesus is not very good.) And who considers Tacitus' account to be "allegory"? Regarding the "confession", Tacitus has been taken as saying that those who confessed to being Christians were punished (e.g., Furneaux's commentary), though the view that some Christians confessed to arson should indeed be mentioned. I agree that the section (and most of the article, in fact) needs work. EALacey 06:42, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
Actually he said that those who confessed to the fire were punished. And the passage does NOT say that christians in general were punished, it doesn't go very far toward demonstrating the alleged persecution of christians under Nero at all. At least it doesn't when you limit your interpretations of what the passage means to what the passage actually says.

[edit] Persecutions under Trajan

This whole section is completely without citation. There are no sources to look into concerning the matter. And if the section is true it would be an extreme violation on the Roman's long standing policy of religious tolerance. If for no reason other than that violation of the long standing policy of Rome I think there should be some citation of sources here. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.63.93.239 (talk) 05:55, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

I've added citations of the relevant letters, and corrected a dating error. On Roman religious intolerance, cf. Bacchanalia. EALacey 06:59, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Persecution under Marcus Aurelius

There in fact is doubt that the law of Marcus Aurelius was targeted at Christians since the divinity of Christ was only actually established at the council of Nicaea and was not widely accepted as doctrine or fact, though it was accepted by some early christians. Also many other religious sects of the time were equally certain or more certain of the divinity of their own gods. As a further demonstration of the lack of the establishment of the divinity of christ you have, if not all four gospels of christ, at least the Gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke which never once have Jesus making any direct claims of divinity, or any subtle claims for that matter, and always making a clear distinction between himself and his God. Consequently the Gospel of John also never has Jesus making any direct claims to his own divinity, however the book of John does contain a sentence which many interpret as an assertion of the divinity of christ, this assertion does not come from jesus, however. Not even the author of the gospel of John would put those words into Jesus' mouth. I would suggest that either this section include more direct evidence that the laws of Marcus Aurelius really were directed directly at Christians and not all mysteries cults which existed at the time, such as the Mithrian cult and the worship of Isis, or this section be removed as it definitely does not establish with even the slightest degree of certainty that Marcus Aurelius intended to persecute christians, or that he even did persecute christianity as a whole.

[edit] Tacitus forgery

It is accepted by just about all historians that the annals supposedly written by Tacitus are forgeries, created by Poggio Bracciolini in the fifteenth century. They were not quoted before this date and the structure of the language is full of mistakes a Roman would not make when speaking his own language but similar to mistakes made by Bracciolini in other of his works. It was claimed that there was a vast multitude of christians in Rome about 64 AD when at the time there was not even a vast multitude of christians in the whole of Judea or anywhere else. Paul however had reached Rome and was preaching there around 63-65 AD and Acts 28:30-31 tells us that he was preaching the gospel freely with "no man forbidding him". SBQ 10:28 4 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pliny forgery

It is generally accepted that the letter from Pliny to the Emperor Trajan is a later forgery. There were many minor religions openly practised in the Roman Empire at the time and there would have been no reason for a Roman proconsul to crack down on any of them, let alone execute the worshippers and so stir up trouble. SBQ 10:37 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Actually, very few historians have considered Pliny's letter to Trajan on the Christians to be a forgery, and most general treatments of Christian persecution don't even consider the possibility worth mentioning (see, for example, G. E. M. de Ste. Croix, "Why Were the Early Christians Persecuted?", Past and Present 26 (1963) 6-38; or T. D. Barnes, "Legislation against the Christians", Journal of Roman Studies 58 (1968), 32-50). As for Tacitus' Annals, I'm not aware of any author since the 19th century who has considered them forged; the confirmation of numerous passages of the Annals by inscriptions discovered since the supposed date of forgery makes such a theory impossible to sustain. Do you have a source stating that the inauthenticity of either text is "generally accepted"? EALacey 09:48, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

*blows gathered dust off talk page*

Hi! So some of you may have noticed the recent renovations going on over at Persecution of Christians in the New Testament (previously Persecution of early Christians by the Jews). Yes, it's all very exciting, but after much dispute title neutrality has been achieved! Huzzah! So what am I doing over here? Well, basically, since that article now accurately chronicles the discussions of persecution deriving from the NT, I've moved some items from this article over here. However, in much the same spirit we have a couple odds and ends in that article, remnants of its Jews vs. Christians origins, that deal directly with early Christian history in the Roman Empire and not the NT. So, I proposed that this title be modified to Persecution of early Christians in the Roman Empire, thus incorporating that orphaned material AND making this article uniform with the subsequent section of the parent article Persecution of Christians entitled "Persecution of early Christians outside the Roman Empire.

Proposed: Move this article to Persecution of early Christians in the Roman Empire

Issue: The current title is alleged to be 1) lacking uniformity with parent's other sections, 2) too narrow, and 3) carries POV implications.
Lacking uniformity: Note that in the parent article, Persecution of Christians, the section following this article is titled "Persecution of early Christians outside the Roman Empire." Thus, Persecution of early Christians in the Roman Empire would be more appropriate for the section preceding, and by extension, this article.
Too Narrow: There are enough instances of persecution against Christians within the Roman Empire, but not committed by the Romans, that either a new section would need to be created in Persecution of Christians or this article would need to be expanded slightly in scope to accommodate them. I'm advocating for the latter in the interest of simplicity, neutrality, and to keep the number of subpages off of Persecution of Christians down as much as possible (to avoid readers having to bounce all over for information on what's really a single subject.
POV implications: The current title presupposes "the Romans" as having been responsible for the persecution of early Christians despite much dispute over the influence Jewish sects may have had over those decisions. Though this subpage was created from Persecution of Christians per WP:SIZE, a WP:POV fork unintentionally resulted. A similar example would be if the Responsibility for the death of Jesus article were to produce a fork called The Romans' responsibility for the death of Jesus. In regard to Descriptive names, WP:NCON states: "Choose a descriptive name for an article that does not carry POV implications. For instance, what do we call the controversy over Qur'an handling at Guantanamo Bay? The article is located at Qur'an desecration controversy of 2005. Note that the title makes no statement about who is the (more) guilty party: it does not "give away" that conclusion; in fact the article itself draws no conclusion." Since the current title does imply a particular POV, assign guilt, and "give away" a particular conclusion, this is not the appropriate title for this article.

Hopefully this proposal is clear and uncontroversial. Much <3 & Kittens, - CheshireKatz (talk) 08:00, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

  • Oppose - the title matches what people would think of and there is little doubt that it was the Romans who did the persecuting, regardless of whether they were incited to do so by the Jews or not. Besides, the "incitement by the Jews" is a minority POV, anyway. Finally, any persecution of the Christians which does not belong here or in Persecution of Christians in the New Testament could be placed in Origins of Christianity (which may be moved soon to History of early Christianity). --Richard (talk) 08:51, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
    Hrrrm, interesting point, I hadn't thought of that as an alternative. Do you want to incorporate the Bar Kohkba material there? - CheshireKatz (talk) 14:47, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
    Yes, there should already be a stubby section there now. Feel free to expand on it as long as it is relevant to the history/origins of early Christianity (i.e. don't make it a section about the revolt per se but about the impact on Christians such as the alleged actions of Bar Kokhba in reprisal for the Christians refusal to support him.) --Richard (talk) 16:41, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
  • support new title would be more neutral. Yahel Guhan 04:44, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Though I think Warrior4321's completion of the move was a little premature, I appreciate his support. Unfortunately, Richard's alternative proposal didn't address the primary concerns of neutrality & uniformity and I guess the best thing at this point would just be to wait & see what happens. - CheshireKatz (talk) 17:17, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Persecuations by Christians

Should persecutions by Christians after they gained power be mentioned as well? Richard001 (talk) 06:34, 8 June 2008 (UTC)