Talk:Peoples Temple

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"The Peoples Temple, originally incorporated as the Wings Of Deliverance in 1954, was a religious organization founded in 1955 by Reverend James Warren Jones (Jim Jones). In 1960 the organization affiliated itself with the protestant denomination, Disciples of Christ. This affiliation was a successful attempt to both raise the dwindling membership and restore the reputation of the cult. The Peoples Temple is widely known for the mass murder/suicide that occurred in Jonestown, Guyana, on November 18, 1978.

He ate babies." Internet slang?


I'm not "disguising" anything, this article is right and if People's Temple says "Kool-Aid" it's wrong [1].

I won't dispute that people say "Kool-Aid"; genericization is a powerful thing. "[M]ost people would have called a drink of that kind Kool-Aid even if was made from Flavor-Aid or whatever." --Lars Eighner. I'll be happy to write that on a Kleenex and Xerox it for you. However, facts are what they are, whatever the slang term is. --Charles A. L. 14:42, Nov 18, 2003 (UTC)

what the bloody hell are you two on about?

Contents

[edit] Anti-religious nature of the group

Jones of course was a Marxist through and through - his control over every aspect of his followers' lives closely resembled a Soviet commissar's control over the average Russian. [2]
Haha, priceless. - FrancisTyers 15:59, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
Jones was obviously a communist (repeated probably thousands of times on tape, memos, etc), but his control over members was vastly different than that of the USSR, though there are similarities with certain Stalin era tactics. And, obviously, his collective property and "no leave" policy mirrors the restrictive emigration policies of several communist countries (USSR, North Korea, East Germany, etc.). However, the similarities end pretty quickly there. If you had to pick one, North Korea is the closest of any country, and even that's a stretch, though Jones greatly admired North Korean internal policies on his daily "News & Commentary" audio tapes. Mosedschurte (talk) 09:14, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Purported cult

This material is from the article List of purported cults, which we are paring down to a pure list. Editors here can best evaluate its statements and decide how to integrate it into this article. Thanks, -Willmcw 21:18, Mar 14, 2005 (UTC)

People's Temple
The People's Temple is seen as the most notorious example of a cult by the media and the public. They almost unanimously agree that if there is one group that deserves the negative connotations associated with the word cult then it was this one. Mary McCormick Maaga argues in an essay that appeared in her book the Voices of Jonestown (Syracuse: Syracuse University Press, 1998) that the People’s temple was three groups in one, using the sociological meaning of the terms i.e., a cult/new religious movement, a sect, and a denomination. [3]

[edit] Sodomy

The article claims that Jim Jones practiced "sodomy" with male Temple members. If this is anal sex, the article should say so. If not, it should explain what acts took place. "Sodomy" is not a particularly useful term. —Guanaco 03:01, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Further, the article seems to imply that "practicing sodomy" is among his repressive and evil characteristics. I assume the editor meant to say unconsensual (or at least not entirely wanted) sodomy, but I admit to not knowing the details, and hope someone can clear this up. Deleuze 10:14, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
sodomy is a perfectly acceptable legal term used widely as a synonym for anal sex. raining girl 17:40, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
More complicated than that, Raining Girl. From the sodomy page: "Sodomy is a term of biblical origin used to characterize certain sexual acts that were attributed to citizens of ancient Sodom. The term is most commonly used to describe the specific act of anal sex between two males or a male and a female. The term "sodomy" also may include non-coital sexual acts ranging from oral sex to paraphilia. It is sometimes used to describe human-animal sexual intercourse (a.k.a. bestiality, zoophilia), and in the German language, this is the primary use of the term. Sodomy laws forbidding certain types of sex acts have been instituted in many cultures. The English term buggery is very closely related to sodomy, in concept, and often interchangeably used in law and popular speech. In the various criminal codes of United States of America, the term "sodomy" has generally been replaced by "deviant sexual intercourse," which is precisely defined by statute. The remaining criminal interest is largely confined to acts where the victim did not or could not legally consent." I know wikipedia's not an academic resource, but I'm just using it to show that it's not "a perfectly accetable" synonym.

Earthbound0 16:06, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

There is a lot of good information on Jim Jones and his sex life at: http://www.jonestownlegacy.com/ and http://jonestown.sdsu.edu/ . There is an especially good article, "Sex in the Temple" by David Wise at: [4]. There is also access to lots of stuff at http://www.maebrussell.com/Jonestown/ . The short story is that Jim Jones was apparently Bisexual, and used sex as a weapon against many individual followers, while creating a church that welcomed GLBT in General. He stepped up his sexual activity within the church when he got arrested in the Tenderloin for some type of sex with a man. After this incident, he also tried to convince everyone in his church (with middling success, it seems) that EVERYONE was homosexual except him. And that he was having sex with both men and women to keep them from deserting the church, or to get emotionally close enough to "heal" them. What an amazing con. --Spyderdiva 02:28, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

GLBT? explaination please? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.108.73.47 (talk) 10:51, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] People's vs. Peoples

I just moved this article to the apostrophe-less name, since that's what's on the incorporation documents [5] and most references. I just wasted several edits moving to what I thought was 'correct', before I checked offsite. nae'blis (talk) 18:16, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Yes, peoples temple is the correct form. It took me some time to figure this out too.

Paul Vandecarr stated that he added the apostrophe to the play's title in part to distinguish it from the church, The Peoples Temple. http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0429/p16s01-almp.html --Spyderdiva 02:32, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Jonestown was not a concentration camp

When I read the article then the reader may be left with the mistaken impression that Jonestown was a concentration camp. This is untrue: people went there, stayed and committed suicide there voluntarily. Only a few defectors (14 out of >900=1.6%) joined senator Ryan. I dunno how to correct this quickly. Andries 22:43, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

This article is horrible in quality. Please help. Thanks. Andries 22:45, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

This is a hard subject. After reading hundreds of books, interviews, articles and scholarly papers about the subject, the truth is probably close to this: Many of the members of PT were happy to be there, but there were always a percentage that were afraid to leave-even in Ukiah and San Francisco. That number only increased when these mostly city dwellers moved to the jungles of Guyana, with extreme heat, bugs, odd food and interpersonal issues being the main problems at first. Once Jones moved there with most of the rest of the church members, more stresses were added in the form of sleep deprivation, odd and sometimes barbaric punishments, reductions in rations and the pressure of Jones increasing drug addiction and paranoia. At the end, there were folks who were happy. There were folks who were unhappy. The vast majority of the membership was blissfully unaware of much of the Machiavellian plotting and drama going on in the background. They just thought they were suffeing a bit to build a better life for themselves and their children-and thumbing their noses in the faces of the "White Establishment". Jones spent YEARS developing an Us vs Them mentality amongst his church, and in the end, that is probably what kept most folks from rebelling against their conditions-and against the poisoning of their families. --Spyderdiva 02:47, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

I've read A LOT on the subject, and I must say, bullseye. There are people like, for instance, Tim Carter who loved Jonestown (especially pre-Jim) and actually wanted Jim to just die so that the place could have a chance to thrive more efficiently. Then there were people like Jerry Parks, who thought the place was a "communist prison camp" and badly wanted out. Then there are others, like many voices on the death tape (Q 42), that say they were very happy living in Jonestown and sound honest saying so.
One thing that's difficult for people to wrap their minds around now after such a historically huge tragedy is that, up until November 18, they hadn't killed anyone (at least in Jonestown itself) and Jim had blustered about "war", "revenge" and "revolutionary suicide" probably 200+ times without a single thing being actually done. People saw this as just dramatics from an old fairly silly (at times) man trying to rally his group. Jones attacked people who were even cruel to animals. He came across as all-talk-no-action in the violence department, except actions against specific individuals that crossed the PT and were thrown in the box, etc., and even then, he spoke with a flutter in his voice, like he hated doing that to people (it's tough for me to type such things about Jones, but it is objectively true listening to the tapes). That's why all of the survivors sound so utterly shocked about the events of November 18, even though many "rehearsals" for such things took place. NO ONE though he'd actually ever go through with doing something that lethal and crazy. Even people like Debbie Layton weren't sure he'd actually ever tip over the edge. But he did. Mosedschurte (talk) 04:09, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Jeannie Mills

I know it says that she was murded (Jeannie Mills) in the quote section of this page, but does anyone know HOW she was murdered? Was she killed by the cult? KellanFabjance

No, I have a text that states that this is an unsolved mystery. Andries 19:15, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
Thats kind of interesting. I would suspect that it was a cult murder. KellanFabjance

According to the Monterey Peninsula Herald at : http://www.maebrussell.com/Jonestown/Millses%20Murdered.html

Al and Jeannie Mills (aka Elmer and Deanna Mertle) and their daughter Daphene Mills were murdered in their own home on 02-28-1980. Their son, Eddie Mills, aged 17 was also in the home, but was unharmed.

According to the AP on December 9,2005, charges were dropped against Eddie Mills in the murder of his parents and sister due to lack of evidence. http://www.rickross.com/reference/jonestown/jonestown38.html

[edit] Jonestown: The Life and Death of Peoples Temple (2006)

I just saw this documentary on the subject Jonestown: The Life and Death of Peoples Temple (2006) and found it extremely interesting and informative. I am certainly not an expert on the subject, but the writer/director gave an amazing view into the topic.

Directed by Stanley Nelson

Writing credits Marcia Smith

--Colin Greene 19:16, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Please be careful when editing

I noticed that for the following sentences references are requested

"The highest actual membership of the Peoples Temple was around 3,000 members, in spite of exaggerated claims by the Temple."

I had inserted the references but they were removed. Can the editor who removed them please re-insert them?. Do not expect other to clean up your mess. Thanks. Andries 19:45, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] need more info.

they should have a section on the cult's beliefs. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.10.60.226 (talk) 15:32, 1 April 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Cult suicide

Can anyone provide an argument for why this group should not be categorized in "category:cult suicides"? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:44, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Well because of neutrality concerns - Categorizing a group as a cult is non-neutral and stems from POV. Sfacets 23:48, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Is there any viewpoint that we can source that disputes this group was a cult? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 00:01, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

From the article: "sociologist John Hall described Peoples Temple as a "charismatic bureaucracy"" - but that is besides the point - 'cult' is non neutral and a WP word to avoid. Sfacets 00:27, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

WP:WTA does not ban the use of the word. What's the source for the Hall quote? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 00:35, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

See article. Also I notice that you do not dispute that the term is non-neutral, and yet are still ready to defend its use - why is that? Sfacets 00:42, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for adding the citation. However Hall does not call the Peoples Temple a "charismatic bureaucracy", at least not on page 95 of the cited book. He does use the word "cult" repeatedly in another book, "Apocalypse Observed: Religious Movements and the State in North America".
  • The "negative cult" of Jonestown thus stands as an ominous monument to an arsenal of manipulations that persist in wider institutional practices. (p. 42)
  • After the murders and mass suicide, People Temple became the quintessence of the "cult", sterotypiclaly portrayed as an organization that drains both property and free will from its members and "brainwashes" them into a "group mind". (p. 43)
As for neutrality, the term "cult" is applied almost universally to a number of groups, including this one. When groups meet a neutral criteria for being a cult then it is neutral to call it a "cult". ·:· Will Beback ·:· 00:58, 19 September 2007 (UTC)


Actually he does call the group a "charismatic bureaucracy" -

If the temple is a harbinger for things to come[...] it is doubtful that such organizations will tale the form of a charismatic bureaucracy like their communal precursor.

There is no set criteria for calling a group a cult - the most we can do her on WP is note who describes the group as a cult, and for what reasons - it is Original Research to blatantly categorize a group as a cult. Sfacets 01:12, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
Original research? I'm sure I can find a dozen sources in as many minutes that call the group a "cult". As for your quote, I don't thiinkyou transcribed it correctly. The sentence reads:
"Come what may in that regard, it is doubtful that such organizations will take the form of a charismatic bureaucracy like their communal precursor."
Even if he did call it a "charismatic bureaucracy", that isn't the same as saying it isn't a cult. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 01:27, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

There is no controversy over whether the Peoples Temple was a cult, so there is no POV issue over categorising it as a cult. -- Lonewolf BC 04:15, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

While I agree that there is no legitimate question that the subject qualifies as a "cult" in the conventional use of the term and that we should say so on the article, the categorization is a different matter. The category:cults has been re-purposed as a category for cult-related topics, not for cults themselves. While some cases, like this one, are obvious to anyone without an agenda, others are more debatable. In the long run those debates are tiresome and it's easier to avoid them by not using that category for groups themselves. Category:Cult suicides is different because these events are thankfully rare and the cases are not marginal. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 17:10, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
As the one of the archetypal examples of the cult suicide, this article definitely has relevance to the topic of cults, so the category should be included. Arkalochori 20:21, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

The mass suicide of the Peoples Temple pretty much gave the word "cult" its perjorative connotations. If you want a case study of a destructive cult, the Peoples Temple is pretty much it. As the issues with the word "cult" stem from such groups as this one, it is not a problem for us to refer to such groups as cults--indeed if we were to call the Peoples Temple a "new religious movement" or some other politically correct somesuch, we would be tarring the legitimate NRMs with the suicide cult brush, contributing to those terms gaining the same perjorative connotations as the word "cult". --Pvednes 16:02, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

The problem is that most people's internal definition of "cult" differs from the very broad-based technical definition, which is any cultural or social group devoted to beliefs outside the mainstream. Under this broad and vague a definition, you could arguably include many large religions, biker gangs, 9-11 conspiracy groups, etc. On the other hand, characteristics associated with the "man on the street" definition of a cult usually involve: religious zealotry (the PT members were atheists who made fun of people that believed in "sky gods"), belief in end-of-world philosphies (the closest thing for the PT was that they were going to die by "Imperialists" hands, not the rest of the world) and where everyone worshipped the leader (in the PT, even insiders like Tim Carter wanted Jones to die so that Jonestown could move on without his drugged lagging existence). The problem is whether you take this "man on the street" definition of "cult" into consideration when determining whether to use the term on wikipedia. Mosedschurte (talk) 09:32, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Old Indianapolis building, now

I've deleted the bit on what has become of the Temple's old building in Indianapolis, because the information on that seems to be wrong, outdated or both. According to this, from Rick Ross' website, republishing a 2003 article from the Indianapolis Star, the building stands (or at least stood) "at [East]15th and North New Jersey streets". The Phoenix Theatre is, rather, at 749 N Park Ave (see the "contact us" at the theatre's own website. At the time the 2003 article was written, the building was, truly, home to Abundant Faith Apostolic Church, which was planning to move to the suburbs and had the building up for sale. However, that was four years ago. I can find no current information on whether the building yet stands, and if so what it is being used for, and by whom.

(By the by, this webpage notes that a different building, at "10th and Delaware Streets", was "used ... for a short time [by] Jim Jones’ Peoples Temple", presumably around 1958, before which it had been a Jewish temple. I suppose that Jones' congregation shortly moved to the E 15th & N New Jersey building.)

-- Lonewolf BC 20:20, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Adding References

I was attempting to add reference for the items requesting citation but having trouble with one in particular. In section "Controversy" I found a reference to former members making allegations of abuse. However, every time I enter the reference it comes out wrong on the main page regardless of how it appears on the preview. I am entering(hypenation not in actual entry, placed only so the proper link to article appears here in this request for assistance) <r-ef>http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=6353579</-ref> a format that worked on addition of other references. Not sure why this is happening but maybe someone more experienced can correct it. Thanks. OneHappyHusky (talk) 02:19, 17 April 2008 (UTC)