Talk:Patrick Moore (environmentalist)

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See the archive for discussion on previous versions of this article, which has since been almost entirely rewritten.

Contents

[edit] Paul Watson paragraphs

I removed the huge quotes from Watson's website again, let's discuss them line by line:

Dr. Moore has been criticized by environmentalists however for his support of nuclear power and genetically modified organisms.

This is already said below, "Patrick Moore has been criticized by environmentalists for many of his views detailed above."

Paul Watson, co-founder of Greenpeace and also founder of the Sea Shepard Society has a different take on the situation than Moore, "In June 1977, Paul Watson resigned from the Greenpeace Foundation because of disagreements with the emerging bureaucratic structure of the organization. Patrick Moore had replaced Robert Hunter and was opposed to direct action campaigns. Moore had informed Watson that he would not be allowed to lead another seal campaign (this refers to Watson's tactics of intervention

I now incorporated this: "Paul Watson, another co-founder of Greenpeace, quit the organization after Moore allegedly called a meeting to expel him from the board amid disagreements over Watson's direct action campaigns."

in an attempt to stop the brutal clubbing to death of baby harp seals - often in front of their frantic mothers [1]; Watson would spray green paint on the white fur so as to make it unattractive to the fur industry). Paul left Greenpeace because he felt the original goals of the organization were being compromised, and because he saw a global need to continue direct action conservation activities on the high seas by an organization that would enforce laws protecting marine wildlife" [2]

I think this is too verbose for this article, should be in Paul Watson's.

"He [Moore] uses his status as co-founder of Greenpeace to give credibility to his accusations. I am also a co-founder of Greenpeace and I have known Patrick Moore for 35 years.... Moore makes accusations that have no basis in fact".

This is already in the article verbatim.

"Moore insists that he is a scientist first and foremost, and that his positions are influenced only by science. But this “scientist” who does not have a single peer-reviewed publication to his credit has challenged the credibility of real scientists like Dr. David Suzuki and Dr. E.O. Wilson. He makes outlandish statements like, 'There is more bio-diversity in a clear cut than in a parking lot in Vancouver but I don’t see anyone protesting against parking lots.' Over the years, Captain Paul Watson has challenged Dr. Patrick Moore to a public debate on numerous occasions. Pat has always refused" [3].

The biodiversity statement should be included if we can find another source, Google doesn't seem to turn up anything. As for feuds with Suzuki and Wilson, with more research those could be interesting too.

"And then there's money. Even 18 years after he left Greenpeace, Moore's business relationships with polluters and clear-cutters elicit disgust from his erstwhile comrades. 'He'll whore himself to anything to make a buck,' says Paul George, founder of the Western Canada Wildlife Committee. In an email, former Greenpeace director Paul Watson charges, 'You're a corporate whore, Pat, an eco-Judas, a lowlife bottom-sucking parasite who has grown rich from sacrificing environmentalist principles for plain old money'. Moore admits he's well paid for his speaking and consulting services. He won't say how well, avowing only that his environmental consultancy, Greenspirit Strategies, has been 'very successful because we know what we're talking about and give good advice.'" [4].

Added "His critics point out Moore's business relations with what they see as "polluters and clear-cutters" through his consultancy." This point needs to be expanded, but the quoted text is mostly just personal insults. --c3o 10:05, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

About half of the article refer to Moore as "Dr Moore". However this is a bit deceptive since, as Watson pointed out, "this “scientist” who does not have a single peer-reviewed publication to his credit has challenged the credibility of real scientists like Dr. David Suzuki and Dr. E.O. Wilson".
It should also be clearer that Watson quit Geenpeace due to Moore's emerging bureaucratic structure of the organization, not because of disagreements with others.
The cancelling of Watson's seal campaign is a good indicator of where Moore's sentiments lay. Spray painting some green on baby seals fur was not radical IMO.
The deletions appear to be a general watering down of the controversies.
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.14.116.114 (talk • contribs) 30 June 2006
>>About half of the article refer to Moore as "Dr Moore". However this is a bit deceptive since, as Watson pointed out, "this “scientist” who does not have a single peer-reviewed publication to his credit has challenged the credibility of real scientists like Dr. David Suzuki and Dr. E.O. Wilson".>>
The quote from Watson has no relevance to whether Moore is or is not a doctor. If, as stated in the article, he has a PhD in Ecology from the University of B.C., then he has every right to call to himself Dr Moore and it is perfectly reasonable (if perhaps more respectful of its subject than most wikipedia articles!) to refer to him as such. Besides, anyone with a PhD in a science subject Science from an accredited institution, is, i would say, a scientist. (you think you could get a science doctorate?... go ahead then..). Of course that doesn't prevent them making unscientific statements, and published, peer-reviewed articles are an accepted way of judging ones involvement in, and the quality of ones, scientific research, so the Watson quote has some force. but he's still Dr Moore:-).
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.20.244.207 (talk • contribs) 10 July 2006
You're right that technically Moore has the right to the PHD due to a 1972 college thesis he wrote. But the point is that for a guy that pontificates about science he sure doesn't have much beef to show for it. Could it be that those who use the "Dr" here are just trying to impress others? I haven't checked but is "Dr" Kent Hovind listed as such in Wikipedia? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.14.116.114 (talk • contribs) 13 July 2006
What an astoundingly specious argument. David Suzuki has a doctorate in zoology. Does that mean we should disregard any of his contributions to the environmental movement because he didn't get a degree in an environmental science? Pathetic. --CokeBear 01:39, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
The biography section that keeps referring to him as Dr. Moore needs to be completely reworked anyway, it seems to be lifted straight from his website (with a few changes myself and others made to make it a bit less POV). Please go ahead and rewrite it if you have the time.
I don't see the edits as watering down the controversies, but providing an encyclopaedial view on them, which ought to be somewhat removed and neutral, and not just a huge blockquote from a critic that includes personal insults. --c3o 14:10, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
An example of the watering down IMO is the removal of the fact that Moore's father "was a logger and past president of the B.C. Truck Loggers Association" [5]. This could have concievably influenced his current views on logging. These views, whether public or private are central, I would think, to anyone interested in joining an environmental organization. Also removed were his failures at certain industries which could have led him to use his former standing as a Greenpeace founder to profit by. I sincerely doubt that all of these anti-environmental organizations which pay him for speaking are hoping to profit from his scientific expertise. Also he fact that Watson has challenged Moore to numerous debates all of which Moore has declined. And why would anyone refuse to allow someone (Watson) to protect baby seals from slaughter?
Maybe because seals are not endangered, and compete with Canadian fishermen? Gifford Pinchot's father was a lumber baron, and he is still considered to be a pioneer of conservation. Why is his father's occupation relevant? The conservation versus preservation debate goes back at least as far as him and John Muir. There is no environmental pope, and no fatwas. To state that someone with a Ph.D. in environmental science, who was also on the board of Greenpeace, is "not an environmentalist" is just political garbage.Pustelnik (talk) 10:59, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
The overall tone of the page is an advertisement for Moore. Just my opinion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.14.116.114 (talk • contribs) 13 July 2006
As long as you can cite reliable sources and maintain a neutral point of view, please go ahead and add all of that (back) to the article. My main issues with the version previous to my edits were the article's lack of structure, the missing listing of his (controversial) beliefs and arguments and the reliance on several long paragraphs of criticism and even insults by clearly biased sources quoted verbatim. I do feel that the details of the Watson-Moore personal feud are a lot less interesting than a well-sourced listing of those "anti-environmental organizations" he's worked for, especially with accompanying articles that confirm their purpose/actions/track record.
A better article on Moore is found at Sourcewatch here. They are also a good source of info on the organizations Moore works for. I understand your thoughts on the insults, however I feel that they are germain because they are not coming from just anyone but from Greenpeace's other founder. For instance if some Joe Schmole said something like that about George Bush it would probably not be used in Wikipedia. But if Colen Powell made such comments they would certainly be quoted.
I think one of the things that galls me about Moore is the so transparent (to some) reasons that these corporations are working Moore: As a Greenpeace founder they are hoping to create a wedge to divide the environmental community (don't think it's working though). It's certainly not because of any scientific expertise on his part. And for his part Moore is using them to profit by, having failed in his own business ventures. From above "Moore admits he's well paid for his speaking and consulting services. He won't say how well, avowing only that his environmental consultancy, Greenspirit Strategies, has been 'very successful because we know what we're talking about and give good advice.'" As Watson said "He [Moore] uses his status as co-founder of Greenpeace to give credibility to his accusations". And also from above, It reeks of right wing think tank strategy IMO. Unfortunately I don't really have the time at present to redo the article; I think I've spent too much on it already. Maybe later. Okay let's try the sig. anon.
By the way, you can sign your posts on talk pages by typing --~~~~. You might also want to consider registering a username if you contribute to Wikipedia regularly. --c3o 00:11, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Environmentalist?

I believe that it is misleading and inaccurate to characterize Patrick Moore as an "environmentalist." According to Wikipedia "In modern times, environmentalism is related to the environmental movement, which stresses the necessity for designation and maintenance of public land, roadless area conservation, waste management, recycling, regulation of industrial and other pollution, preservation of biodiversity, regulation of genetically engineered organisms, and prevention of a global climate crisis, as well as ozone depletion." Therefore, Patrick Moore cannot be an environmentalist. He is paid by the timber industry and the nuclear industry to lobby the public on their behalf, under the guise of environmentalism. He openly admits to receiving $$ from these interests, and his statements are patently anti-environmentalist. The term "environmentalist" should be removed from both the title of this article, and from the opening paragraph. - This unsigned comment was added by 68.49.97.205 on 22:29, 24 September 2006

Agreed. 68.49.97.205 02:53, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
Agreed.
Disagree. It is like comparing Gifford Pinchot and John Muir. Both are "environmrntalists". Pustelnik (talk) 03:10, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
He is co-founder of one of the world's largest environmentalist movements and has a Ph.D. in ecology. What else but an environmentalist could he be? He has opinions that differ from the mainstream. So what? Was Einstein not a scientist because he disliked Quantum Mechanics? Even if what you say is true - that he is being payed by the timber and nuclear industry - he is still an environmentalist. Just one working for the industry. And I see no evidence for this claim anyway. The article just says "As Chair of the Sustainable Forestry Committee of the Forest Alliance of BC, a group created by the forest industry[1], Moore leads the process of developing the "Principles of Sustainable Forestry" which have been adopted by a majority of the industry." Perhaps he did get payed as chair of this committee, but still that hardly makes him a spokesman for the timber industry. Diadem 11:29, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
I do NOT agree, and if we go down this road we are going to have to change a lot of things on Wikipedia. Whether you AGREE with his views on the environment or not does not change the fact that he speaks on environmental concerns. Within the environmental movement there are many extremes, and there is no way one person could ever agree with anyone. Moore tries to (or at least seems to) find a balance between the environment and the needs of humanity (or maybe just the needs of his pocketbook, who can be sure?) as opposed to certain in the environmental movement who would take actions which would substantially reduce the ability of the humanity to feed itself, sentencing millions to a horrible death by starvation. For example, by the exact description above, nuclear energy helps with issues of greenhouse gases at the expense of other environmental concerns... he just sees it differently from you. "Regulation of" and "outlawing" things are not the same - and thus his discussions on GMO are valid points. Just because he tries to find diplomatic solutions rather than chaining himself to trees does not mean that he is not an environmentalist. And, just as a personal aside, grow a spine and sign your comments. --CokeBear 01:39, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Agreed, the person who wanted to remove the environmentalist verbiage seems to be really lost. It is not Wikipedia's job to decide who is and who is not an environmentalist. Moore is publicly known as an environmentalist, so he is one. Just because his views do not align with those of Greenpeace does not make him not an environmentalist. Greenpeace does not have an intellectual monopoly on environmentalism. If the OP feels so strongly about it then one could instead write "self considered environmentalist" - though I have the feeling the OP would object to even this, since his goal seems to be to discredit Moore with ad-hoc and guilt by association attacks, not write a factual article. Hvatum 05:58, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Article neutral ?

I don't seen much wrong with this article. Moore's views are fairly mainstream, . Saying there is more biodiversity in a clearcut (Image:Biodiversity_on_clearcut )[6]then a parking lot(Image:Manhattancarpark)[7] is not that outrageous. KAM 00:03, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Moore claims to be a co-founder of Greenpeace. He is not, this is a flat out distortion meant to confuse the arguments regarding environmental issues. This article claims he is a co-founder. He is not. See: http://www.commondreams.org/views07/0228-20.htm —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.166.145.74 (talk) 02:28, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reworking a recent batch of edits

A series of recent edits by User:Pmooregreenspirit has created a number of problems with this article. See diffs here [8] Much of what was added may be factual. However, since this is a biographical article and no sources were cited, this material needs to be verified or removed. Some of the new material makes statements as to the beliefs of Patrick Moore, there are multiple NPOV problems, some of the language is unencyclopedic and reads like a narrative. I am also troubled by examples of sourced material which was deleted in this batch of edits and by the fact that some edits were inserted inline with existing citations, which give the appearance that the new statements are also cited.

The sourced material which was deleted should be restored and that citations should be requested on the recently added material. After that, the whole article could use a neutral re-write. I'll see how much effort I can put into it in the next few days, but I would appreciate any other advice and input. - Justin (Authalic) 00:09, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Essential information for balance

there is a great deal of internet and media interest in Patrick Moore; it appears that he was not a founder of Greenpeace, although a founder of Greenpeace International. He is regularly denounced publicly in the strongest possible terms, frequently by those that have unimpeachable status within the environmentalist movement. Any balanced wiki on him must include both sides of this portrait: to call him an environmentalist ("a person who is concerned with the protection of the environment", askoxford.com) without for example quoting David Suzuki ( "Patrick Moore is an eco Judas" ) would be at best misleading. GarethHD 11:25, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Greenpeace v. Greenpeace lawsuit

This is a minor point, but it is inaccurate to state that I (David Tussman) announced that the San Francisco office of Greenpeace intended to break away from the original Greenpeace Foundation in Vancouver. I never made such an announcement, nor in fact did the San Francisco organization. What is true is that in the early days Greenpeace grew internationally in a rather chaotic and unstructured way, and that in an attempt to restore some order and reassert its authority the Vancouver office initiated a lawsuit alleging trademark infringement against myself and the San Francisco group after several efforts to reach a negotiated settlement (in which I had generally been supportive of the Vancouver position) had failed.

A second inaccuracy is the statement that Paul Watson "resigned" from Greenpeace. In fact, he was removed from the board by a vote of the other directors in 1977 because of his actions during that year's seal campaign where he had taken sealing implements from one of the hunters. This may seem like a small matter but it was at a time when Greenpeace was applying for tax exempt status in the US and the IRS had specifically questioned whether Watson's actions were consistent with Greenpeace's philosophy of peaceful nonviolence in the tradition of Gandi and Martin Luther King. Probably that was not the only reason for his removal, but in any case Watson went on to have a very successful career leading his own organization, as did others who found Greenpeace a bit too tame and timid.

In general this is an excellent and balanced article. Some have tried to create meaningless controversy about whether Moore was an actual "founder" or whether he deserves to be called "Dr." One of the ironies of the environmental movement is that some of its members demonize others in the movement with whom they disagree more than they demonize the other side. Patrick Moore may not have always been the most liked or diplomatic of Greenpeace leaders, but at least he was not guilty of that sin. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.228.198.116 (talk) 17:47, 27 March 2007 (UTC).

Thank you - I for one am glad to see that someone directly involved in the events has stopped by to clarify matters. I'm not quite sure how to take Patrick Moore - his motives may be unclear but I believe the approach he takes is needed to bring balance to the environmental movement. It is offensive when someone who disagrees with him starts questioning his credentials, hoping to discredit him. Disagree with him if you will... everyone is entitled to their opinion. I agree with many things he says, but not 100% of what he believes. I feel exactly the same way about David Suzuki. Do I get to put up a website now claiming David Suzuki is not a doctor and is nothing but a talking head who got famous by being on CBC? He is viewed as an environmentalist but his doctorate is in zoology. ZOMG- Patrick Moore is an environmental scientist, and David Suzuki is a glorified vet! Ridiculous. --CokeBear 01:22, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Removing POV in Statement

I am removing a POV part of a statement. The full statement is: "He is an effective and polished lobbyist and media interviewee, much to the chagrin of his opponents who often turn apoplectic in media-recorded debates with him". The part I am removing is "much to the chagrin of his opponents who often turn apoplectic in media-recorded debates with him". This sounds like it came from Moore himself. The fact is that he is also subject to temper tantrams. "Moore lost his cool, for example, when a Canadian journalist asked him about Burson-Marsteller's role in conducting a public relations campaign for Argentina when the Argentinian military's death squads were murdering thousands of citizens and political dissidents. Moore rose to the bait by responding that 'people get killed everywhere.' ... In Tasmania, Moore finally showed up for a radio debate. He demanded a retraction of the briefing materials that cited his defense of Burson-Marsteller in Argentina. His demand was refused, and instead his statement about Argentina ended up being broadcast to a statewide audience. At the end of the debate Moore stormed from the studio, leaving journalists bemused" As to his debating abilities, I note that he has refused lots of them, "he would only participate in interviews that allowed him to appear separately from his critics" [9]. "Over the years, Captain Paul Watson has challenged Dr. Patrick Moore to a public debate on numerous occasions. Pat has always refused" [10]. 4.246.206.76 07:06, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Conflict of interest tag

See #Reworking_a_recent_batch_of_edits above. Nurg (talk) 10:24, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Vote for removal of the tag. A quick check of the authors on the article's history shows that many different people have been involved in writing the aerticle. I suspect that this tag was placed as an objection to his view, an action that is definitely not NPOV. Pustelnik (talk) 10:48, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Views

The "Views" section of this page should reflect the extreme change in his views over time. For example:

"Nuclear power plants are, next to nuclear warheads themselves, the most dangerous devices that man has ever created. Their construction and proliferation is the most irresponsible, in fact the most criminal, act ever to have taken place on this planet." -Patrick Moore, Assault on Future Generations, 1976

He has gone from this view to actively supporting nuclear. This kind of information can be presented in a completely neutral factual way and guide people to their own conclusions regarding his sincerity. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.45.210.149 (talk) 11:43, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

I disagree. I think the fact a man changes his mind on a topic after 32 years has no bearing on his sincerity whatsoever. You would also need more information concerning why he made that change. Does he actually believe that he was scientifically wrong 32 years ago or is he just a puppet of corporations. It is not necessary, nor ethical, for wikipedia to make those determinations. -Brad Kgj08 (talk) 23:40, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
Is this helpful? http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/04/14/AR2006041401209.html - Brad Kgj08 (talk) 11:45, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Global Warming section

The two indented quotes in the Global Warming section do not look like they belong whatsoever. They would better fit in a section titled "Opinion of Modern Environmental Movement" or something like that. Anyone agree? -Brad Kgj08 (talk) 23:42, 19 May 2008 (UTC)