Talk:Paracelsus

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Contents

[edit] Unhelpful addition

The addition that is not at all very helpful

...never settling for more than a year or two due to violent opposition precipitated by his characteristically extreme actions.

[edit] Word coinage question

Were the words alcohol and zinc indeed coined by him? Aren't they of Arabic origin? Jorge Stolfi 20:38, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Adding some notes on zinc now. Jamesday 15:22, 11 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Please see the etymology of alcohol and the discussion in Talk:alcohol. Alcohol was discovered by Islamic alchemists (possibly Geber or Al-Razi) in the 8th-9th century. I would think that both the substance and the word were introduced in Europe much earlier than Paracelsus, perhaps in the 12th or 13th centuries when the Islamic works began to be translated into Latin.
Jorge Stolfi 04:41, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I have independently arrived at the same conclusion, and having checked this talk page and found a confirmation I'm removing the reference. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 21:13, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] "Höhenheim"

I deleted nonsense about his name. Google reveals he didn't have an umlaut "ö". Only four hits use it, all of them in English. Over 5000 hits in German show his name as "Hohenheim". Martg76 23:24, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Wundarzney

The word literally means "medicine of wounds." It is possible that the contemporary translation of that would have been "surgery," but could someone confirm that? For one thing, I think Germans at the time would have used the Greek derived word "chirurgie" if they actually meant surgery. Hmoulding 19:36, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fullmetal Alchemist

I haven't seen the whole series, but when does it state that Paracelus, or in this case Hohenheim, became immortal? I don't think the reference should be there, considering that although Hohenheim may be based off Paracelsus, there is no conection between the two.

Around the end of the series, it is revealed that he has been transferring his soul from body to body to stay alive long after he would have died, on the order of 400 years, as has the woman Dante. Vanyel 22:47, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

I know this is a bit old, but for those interested: Arakawa (the mangaka) may have just been slightly inspired by Paracelsus in choosing Hohenheim's name, but BONES (who produced the anime and rewrote the second half of the storyline) clearly worked off of this allusion in creating Hohenheim's past. I think it's pretty clear that Hohenheim is supposed to be the other world's Paracelsus (since it's made clear he never went through the Gate and saw our world until Dante sends him there at the end of the series). But they both lived at the same time, albeit in different realities, in the anime (the manga is of course a different story).

[edit] Para = superior to?

You guys sure about this? My rudimentary Greek skills tell me "para" means "along side of" or thereabouts. Isn't "exo" superior? Peter1968 08:37, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

The Read text says that "...[H]e assumed the cognomen of Paracelsus, applicable to one who has surpassed the learning of the celebrated Roman physician, Celsus...." (p. 97).

The wikidictonary states that the para- prefix means "beside, near, alongside, beyond". Acewolf359 17:06, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Superior to Celsus?

Is there a source for the idea that it means "superior to Celcus"? One might think that it was derived from Paraclete Hackwrench 05:19, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

According to Encyclopedia Britannica "para-Celsus" means above or beyond Celsus, a 1st-century Roman physician.

[edit] Removing Flamel remark

An anonymous contributor left this in the page:

In particular, Paracelsus rejected the magic theories of Agrippa and Flamel (N.B. This assertion regarding Flamel is problematic, since a.) no works by Flamel were in circulation prior to Paracelsus' death and b.) Flamel's theories are specifically alchemical and not magical)

If anyone can evaluate its veracity, please make the appropriate alteration -- the statement doesn't belong in the article, however. --Ogdred 04:42, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't know about "doesn't belong in the article." Isn't it a valid point that Paracelsus can't reject a theory that wasn't formalized while he was alive? If anything, it might be more accurate to suggest that Flamel's alchemy ignored Paracelsus's theory. Perhaps the article's sentence should be changed to "Paracelsus rejected the (magic? alchemical?) theories of Agrippa." Hmoulding 19:29, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Origin of the word "bombastic"

The association of "bombastic" with Paracelsus appears to be taken as fact in many places. In particular, I found a reference to this in a very old medical text that belonged to my grandfather. Unfortunately, I haven't the foggiest idea where it is now. Googling for "bombastus bombastic" shows a lot of statements attesting to this as well. I found an entry at dictionary.com with the claim that it comes from an obsolete word for cotton padding. This too makes sense (ie puffing up one's words). Here are some what appear to be credible claims to a link to Paracelsus:

Here's a reference from "Sorcerer's Stone: A Beginner's Guide to Alchemy" by Dennis William Hauck. "Paracelsus was so confrontational in discussing his ideas that his middle name (Bombastus) became synonymous with the loud and self-reverent speaking style of "bombastic" people.".

So then, why if "bombastic" had its origins solely in an old word for cotton padding, does it show up much more often relating to Paracelsus?

Frotz661 22:50, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Citing a quotation to him that he didn't say?

"The dose makes the poison." (A popular short version.)

The original quote is:

Appeared in the article. Adding the short "version" of a quotation adds nothing to the article, and only increases the chance that a casual reader will become misinformed, it has been removed.Acewolf359 17:19, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

I think the quote should remain, though, after the original quote and with a caveat. There are plenty of sources that cite the short version. Frotz661 21:38, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Paracelsus' image

I have modified the caption, reflecting the uncertainty about the subject's identity and linking its author to the school of Quentin Metsys. The painting is sometimes attributed to Metsys himself, but that's controversial. More importantly, it's far from certain that the portrait depicts Paracelsus. There are other, albeit less colorful, images available which are certainly of him. I suggest that the current image be replaced by this one, or, even better, the "sure" image could be placed in the infobox and the colourful portait moved below. I may proceed to do that in the near future. Stammer 06:40, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Alchemy

Removed:

Indeed, the remnants of alchemical traditions can still be seen in modern medicine. For instance, the Caduceus has been adopted as the prime symbol of western medicine.

The caduceus remark is incorrect, see Caduceus and Rod of Asclepius for details. In light of this, I don't think the first sentence can stay without some substantiaton. Shayno 11:17, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wandering through

I am just wandering through and wondered if anyone has checked the various David Gelsinger book references. These were added in two successive edits on August 15, 2007 by the anonymous IP user 128.111.96.174 (whose IP block is at the University of California at Santa Barbara (see here: [1]) and whose user contributions consist only of these two entries, made one minute apart, as shown here: [2]). The diff between the way the article was before and after those two edits is shown here: [3]. These refs give publication dates for the Gelsinger translations, but no publisher or ISBN numbers. The only material to be found online by David Gelsinger is this:

  • (1) Archives of multiple attempts in 2007 to create a Wikipedia article on the author David Gelsinger in three different versions; \these cited the Wikipedia Paracelsus article, two very brief personal pages, and/or a library holding at the University of Santa Barabara as the only sources. In each case creation of the article was declined for inclusion in Wikipedia due to having no 3rd party sources.
*Attempt to create the page was declined by GrooveDog 00:49, 10 July 2007 (UTC) here: [4]
*Attempt to create the page was declined by Powers T 15:46, 11 July 2007 (UTC) here: [5]
*Attempt to create the page was declined by Ben 10:11, 20 August 2007 (UTC) here: [6]
  • (2) Archives of a 2007 proposed Wikipedia article comprising a List of UC Santa Barabara scholars in various categories for the years 2001 - 2007 inclusive -- of which the only years filled in are 2003 and 2004 and the only name filled in is David Gelsinger (twice). The article was declined for inclusion in Wikipedia due to "lack of context".
*Attempt to create the page was declined by Precious Roy 00:34, 20 September 2007 (UTC) here: [7]
  • (3) a List of vegans page at Wikipedia on which David Gelsinger appeared in the category of "Authors" despite the fact that the list creators specifically asked for exclusion of people who do not have Wikipedia articles (i.e. no "red ink" or "black ink" names). The ref to Gelsinger was first added on September 4, 2007, here: [8]. The edit was made by anonymous IP user 169.231.37.76 (whose IP block originates at the University of California at Santa Barbara, as you will see here: [9] and whose contributions consist only of repeated edits to the List of vegans page and attempts on August 20, 2007, to create the David Gelsinger page, as you can see if you look here: [10]). I deleted Gelsinger's name from the List of vegans page -- along with the names of several other "black ink" people who were using the list to link to their blogs.
  • (4) The 2 source pages cited in the "David Gelsinger" article proposal, those being (A) a "World Vegans" page consisting of 3 blog entries from 2007, showing that Gelsinger travels between Santa Barbara and Santa Rosa, California, and that he is or was a student at UC Santa Barbara, with a permanent telephone number in Santa Rosa (perhaps his parents' home), and (b) a page called "Lagoonerville" with 3 poems on it and a link to a custom-t-shrt site that sells "Lagoonerville" t-shirts. The book of poems, "Lagoonerville", is shown in a photograph, but there is no way to order it. It looks like a blank black journal book with a drawing pasted onto it.
  • (5) Records of a law case in which David Gelsinger sued two people in Santa Barbara, California for defamation which he said took place in 2004 and caused him to lose meal privileges at UC Santa Barbara; the case was dismissed because the statute of limiations had expired by the time he filed his complaint in 2006. He appealed the dismissal and the ruling was upheld in 2007.

A search at google for "David Gelsinger" (in quotes) plus "Paracelsus" yields only the Wikipedia Parcelsus entry and its many clones. A search for "David Gelsinger" (in quotes) plus "ISBN" yields only the Wikipedia Parcelsus entry and its many clones.

I do not think these translations have been published. They may be part of a hoax or game perpetrated upon Wikipedia by David Gelsinger or they may exist in manuscript form, but in either case they are not available to the public. I am deleting them.

64.142.90.32 07:39, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Anon IP user 198.189.150.206 / 198.189.150.111 (the IP block is registered to the California State University Network) seems to be David Gelsinger again, as outlined above -- and he has re-added his supposed translation credits, again without any publication data, See here [11], here [12], and here [13].
I again call upon him to provide some proof that these translations exist in third-party verifiable form and are notable for the purpose of inclusion in Wikipedia.
Until verifiable evidence of their existence and notability, such as an ISBN, a publisher's name, or URLs pointing to availablity online or in print, is forthcoming, these translations do not meet Wikipedia standards. I am again deleting them.
Note that the same pattern of adding Vegan notability for David Gelsinger is also followed by the new IP block user, the same pattern as has been outlined above:
  • Sole edit by 198.189.150.206 is here [14]
* 01:01, 14 November 2007 (hist) (diff) Paracelsus‎ (→Works)
  • Edits by 198.189.150.111 are here: [15]
* 01:55, 14 November 2007 (hist) (diff) List of vegans‎ (→Authors)
* 01:11, 14 November 2007 (hist) (diff) Paracelsus‎ (→Works) (top)
* 01:09, 14 November 2007 (hist) (diff) Paracelsus‎ (→Works)
* 15:42, 17 April 2007 (hist) (diff) KLST‎
* 15:21, 17 April 2007 (hist) (diff) WJCL (TV)
I have little faith in Wiki adminstrators, but this seems to be a situation that equires some form of management. The fact that the offender is utilizing public university IP blocks makes the task of control difficult, but it is certainly not my role to play watchdog here, so passing this information along to administrators seems the best course of action.
64.142.90.32 08:02, 14 November 2007 (UTC)


On the 5 December 2007 user 198.189.150.174 added the Gelsinger references back. I cant see any additional verification has been provided, cf. the discussion above, and delete the references.Power.corrupts (talk) 15:40, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 04:20, 10 November 2007 (UTC)