Talk:Ornament (music)

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[edit] Nachschlag

Could someone please explain what nachschlag is? I see this term in my edition of various works, like the Beethoven sonatas often have the footnote "without Nachschlag" on a mordent. I haven't seen an explanation that is satisfactory yet. I'll continue to researcg a bit but if someone comes up with something in the mean time... :) --Sketchee 05:58, Dec 19, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Pictures

How about some pictures? Whoever did the scales could do this...

Don't forget about Wikipedia:Requested pictures! --Brion VIBBER

[edit] Grace note

I don't know how anybody else uses the phrase "grace note", but when I use it, it is as a synonym for "acciaccatura". The only musical dictionary I have to hand at the moment does indeed give a pointer to the article on "ornament" witout any more specific use indicated, but it was published in 1946, and probably isn't to be trusted for modern usage. I think this page should be moved to ornament (or musical ornament or ornament (music) if that's a problem) - even though that's an ambiguous word in a wider context (what isn't?), it's better than "grace note" which is at best ambiguous when used in this way, and at worst archaic.

By the way, I've just got a new bit of software which should allow me to upload .pngs of musical notation, so I'll be able to kit this page out. --Camembert

Well, I've moved it here from "grace note" now. I'll add pictures soon, honestly (maybe sound samples as well). --Camembert
Pictures added, sound samples to follow, one day, eventually, probably. --Camembert

[edit] From Talk:Ornament

The following section written when the page as at ornament

I'm thinking this page ought to either include something brief about the more common use of "ornament" meaning decoration, or be moved to ornament (music) and this page made into a disambig with a stubby definition of the decoration meaning. Silver, glove, mantle, and abalone all link to this page expecting that kind of a meaning. -- John Owens 23:33 27 May 2003 (UTC)

I agree with you, and the only reason I've not done it myself is that I'm too lazy :) --Camembert

It's been moved now. --Camembert

Hi sorry I didn't warn anyone of moving it. Was trying to dismbiguate anaglyph and one of the meanings is "ornament carved in low relief". Hope I didn't cause any major inconvenience... Unconcerned 18:17, 1 Mar 2004 (UTC)
No, no inconvenience at all - I'm glad somebody did the deed :) --Camembert

[edit] Acciaccatura

We need to mention the acciaccatura - it only redirects here. Dysprosia 02:30, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I have now done some work on acciaccatura, and a couple of other things. Sketchee, a Nachschlag (note spelling, which I correct in one instance above), is best understood generically as an unessential note following the principal note, subtracting time from it (cf. Vorschlag). Camembert, grace note is best taken as generic, and certainly not as equivalent to acciaccatura. Generally, terminology, notation and practice for all of these ornaments vary tremendously by time, place, and taste (as has been noted in this entry). There are MANY more ornaments that could be mentioned. If I get time, I might add some. I am also in a position to work up a bibliography, given only enough time! --Noetica 05:13, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Well, I'm not the only person I know who uses "grace note" to mean... well, perhaps not specifically "acciaccatura", but in any case notes writ small that steal time from notes writ large (what I mean is that I wouldn't call a trill a grace note unless it was actually written out--perhaps it's just me). Anyway, it doesn't much matter, I only really mentioned it (two years ago) as an aside. Incidentally, I wrote a little on the acciaccatura in the article a while ago (see this revision, for example), but it was deleted without comment when I wasn't looking and never restored. I've now restored the notation images. --Camembert

Hi Camembert. Thanks for fixing things with "acciaccatura" (whose spelling I have fixed in your note above; hope you don't mind!). It looks much better now, with the expanded explanation and especially the restored images. I was the one responsible for the "hysterical" note concerning pronunciation (my first ever Wiki edit)! I had an excuse due to exasperation, but I won't give the details. "Acciaccatura" is a term undergoing many vicissitudes over the years (as with grace note, I think); we can't cover them all though, and I think things look good as they now stand. I still say there are many other ornaments to add. One thing at a time, eh? --Noetica 21:29, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Hi Noetica. Sorry about that "hysterical" comment--I was probably a bit hysterical myself there (editing in that gap between work and dinner; always a dangerous time for me). You're quite right about there being much else to be covered in the article, of course--the article as it stands is really just a starting point. Corrections to my lousy spelling are always welcomed, by the way--anything that makes me look less stupid is fine by me! --Camembert

[edit] Turn

I think that Turn (music) does not need to be a seperate article. For a merge, it's definition would add nothing. But what about the example? It seems contradictory with the definition on this page, while this page already has a good one. Should it all just be deleted to redirect? --Mahlered 01:34, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Nachschlag

As requested, I (Noetica) am assembling the material about the Nachschlag under a new heading. First I give excerpts from earlier discussion:

Sketchee asked: Could someone please explain what nachschlag is? I see this term in my edition of various works, like the Beethoven sonatas often have the footnote "without Nachschlag" on a mordent.
Noetica answered: Sketchee, a Nachschlag ... is best understood generically as an unessential note following the principal note, subtracting time from it (cf. Vorschlag).

And now we cut to recent discussion prompted by the above:

Your definition of "Nachschlag" leaves something to be desired. Its usual meaning is the turn at the end of a trill, such as EDEDEDEDEDCD... (note emphasis) Wahoofive 21:56, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Whose definition, Wahoofive? Mine, in talk here? Or OED's, whose sole content is this:
"A grace note which takes its value from that of the note preceding it."
One example given by OED:
"1960 E. Bodky Interpretation of Bach's Keyboard Works v. 180 In bar 20 this version leads to ugly parallel fifths, which Landshoff tries to avoid by changing the short appoggiaturas of bars 19 and 20 into Nachschläge."
Hmmm? And your source? --Noetica 23:38, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)
My source is the Harvard Dictionary of Music. Wahoofive 06:53, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Yes. And how does that source define the term "Nachschlag"? Interestingly, as far as I can tell the New Grove does not define the term at all. It does, however, use it. Two of the uses occur in describing the trill ending that you discuss (which I don't dispute for a moment); the other use that I found has nothing to do with trills. Classically, the term referred to various notes as described by me and by OED. You might like to check this in CPE Bach's famous Versuch über die wahre Art das Clavier zu spielen, a classic source (some would say a definitive source). Bach mentions Nachschläge away from any talk of trills, and deplores them. He also speaks of them in connection with trills. Take a look here, if you have no Versuch handy:
www.iment.com/maida/familytree/henry/music/bachnotation.htm
--Noetica 11:38, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Harvard gives two definitions: the one I gave, which they describe as "modern," and an ornamental note tagged onto the end of the principal note, sort of the opposite of an appoggiatura, which they limit to 17th- and 18th-century music (they give much more detail about different uses in different countries and periods, including Bach). I didn't mention this definition at first because the original question about Nachschlag referred to a footnote in Beethoven which obviously referred to the first meaning. BTW, can we put this "Nachschlag" discussion in a separate section of this page? I'd like Noetica to do it because it involves cutting up his comments [Done! --Noetica 00:27, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)]. Wahoofive 16:42, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Harvard is in this respect better than Grove, then, which as I have said gives no definition. I question Harvard on the characterisation of the "trill-suffix" usage as modern, though. Sure, it's modern in that it is used in broadly modern times (as well as in 18C, concurrently with the "non-trill" usage). But so is the non-trill usage modern: it's just that we talk less about such graces in more recent times than we do about making sense of Beethoven's indications, or of editorial footnotes to Beethoven. (In evidence for the non-trill usage's modernity I tender both the 1960 OED quote I cited, and also the third occurrence in Grove, which quotes a use of the term by Dannreuther, writing in English in 1893-5, it seems, and referring to a work by Schubert composed some time between 1823 and 1828.)
Recall what I wrote earlier about this: "Generally, terminology, notation and practice for all of these ornaments vary tremendously by time, place, and taste (as has been noted in this entry)." Who would disagree? But what remains consistent in use of the term "Nachschlag" is that it is, whether suffixed to a trill or not, "best understood generically as an unessential note following the principal note, subtracting time from it (cf. Vorschlag)", as I wrote above. In any case, the original query concerned a mordent allegedly annotated as "without Nachschlag", so it is apt to give a general answer, and that's what I did!
It should perhaps be added that in some careful expositions of these things, a distinction is made between the Nachschlag as a one-note grace, and the Nachschlag that occurs at the end of a trill etc. (or not!) as two notes, best classified among the two-note graces.
--Noetica 00:27, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Grace note

I came to this article redirected from Grace note. Yet the words "grace note" do not appear here except as a side mention in the section "Acciaccatura", the last sentence of the article: "Some pianists play both the acciaccatura and the main note simultaneously, releasing the grace note immediately." Further explanation should be made of what a grace note is or isn't. I read through the above discussion, and I see there is some controversy/vagueness. In all my years of studying piano and violin (in the U.S.), we always used the term "grace note" for what this article calls "acciaccatura". However, I am no musical scholar. If the term has multiple meanings, perhaps they could be briefly mentioned in the introduction. — Knowledge Seeker দ 06:46, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I've revised it to try to make this clearer. The grace note is a notational device, while appoggiatura and acciaccatura are resulting sounds which may (or may not) be written using a grace note. —Wahoofive (talk) 22:35, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] revision from redirect

I think that Wahoofive's point that a grace note is a notational device rather than the resulting sound, which is a matter of interpretation, is key to this discussion. I have modified the article as neutrally as possible to this effect. Curtlindsay 21 October 2005 curtlindsay@comcast.net

[edit] Acciaccatura interpretation incorrect?

I am just a musical amateur but the acciaccatura interpretation image does look kind of weird to me. It has a triple repeat while I always assumed that one hits the main note just once. Is the current acciaccatura interpretation correct? I would expect it to be like indicated in this image (which I have taken from the external reference? Janderk 10:27, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

There doesn't appear to be anything wrong with our image. Our image has a fast accaciatura. I don't expect you can play fast accaciaturas on a tuba, so their image of the interpretation is a bit "longer". Doesn't matter. Dysprosia 11:21, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Hmmmm. I did not notice the tie line which makes it one note, which is kind of stupid of me. Thanks, and my apologies for waisting your time. Janderk 12:18, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
No need to apologize. Dysprosia 12:22, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Turns: there are TWO!

Yes, there are, as the first note on which this turn is being performed is determined by the *position* of the "S"! I can't remember which is which, but there are definitely two, one starting with the note ABOVE the original note, one starting with the note BELOW the original note. -trom-bone 80.129.92.102 15:50, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merge from Appoggiaturas

Someone recently created the article Appoggiaturas, with content that is probably redundant to what is in this article. I tried to move it to Appoggiatura per Wikipedia naming convention, but that title is a redirect to this article. I don't know enough about the content to merge it myself, someone else should do the merging. --t ALL IN c 04:45, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

I've had a look at that other article, and I cannot commend its content, which is pretty rambling and lacking good theoretical roots. I suggest we ignore that article, or move for its deletion. Even its title is ill-formed, being a plural where a singular would do perfectly well, as with most articles. (Would we have an article entitled "Symphonies" just because there are different kinds of symphonies?) Noetica 09:00, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
yeah, I didn't think there was any content from that article that needed to be merged here, but I wanted someone more knowledgeable to make sure there wasn't any. Rather than being deleted, the article Appoggiaturas should redirect to this article like the singular title Appoggiatura does. --t ALL IN c 21:30, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
OK, I've just deleted content at that other location, and redirected to this article. Seemed best to be decisive on this one. Noetica 00:25, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Turn image/text

This text "If it is placed between two notes, however, the note before the symbol is played, then the turn, and then the following note. " doesn't seem to match the diagram. Can someone check? Stevage 13:23, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Stevage, I think there was not so much a mismatch between the text and the diagram as a sort of ambiguity and some poor sequencing in the text. Having pondered this, I have now re-ordered and re-worked things. See what you think. Noetica 00:31, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Turn S mirrored wrongly

Your S in the image of the Turn is mirrored wrongly. It should be a S lying on the back, not mirrored. In the german article de:Verzierung_(Musik), we have the right image. If you mirror the S you should begin with the lower second note.--de:Benutzer:Roomsixhu roomsixhu

Nice article at de:Verzierung_(Musik), Roomsixhu. Better than ours here, which needs a lot of work to accommodate detail. But it is by no means clear that ours is wrong in the way you say it is. Probably there are differences by period, and possibly by country also. Can you cite a printed authority? (I can!) Logic at least would seem to be on our side, since it is reasonable that the upper note should be represented by the upper curve of the S-on-its-back. (Incidentally, you might fix gepiegelt to gespiegelt in your article, ja?)
– Noetica♬ Talk 08:00, 31 March 2007 (UTC)