Talk:Order of the Phoenix (organisation)

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Articles for deletion This article was nominated for deletion on 12 September 2007. The result of the discussion was Keep.


Contents

[edit] Name of article

i changed ise to ize. At the time it looked strange to me, but apparently ise is how the British spell it. I never knew that

[edit] Member Lists

I think the lists of members should include only names and not descriptions. The other information is redundant, as it is already included in the character's own articles, and it clutters up the page. (Changed and edited by me 9/29/07) --Gyrcompass 21:00, 29 September 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Missions and Operations

  • I added a missons and operations section to the page. and i will be contributing to the section in the near future. Ko2007 17:16, 10 August 2007

Though this section makes some sense, I think it should be incorporated into the main article and deleted. There's too much original research involved in splitting up the order's work into specific missions, and the only mission actually given a name in the books is The Advance Guard, and even that's a chapter title.--Gyrcompass 19:44, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Labeling of Order Members

I find the current labeling of Order Members confusing. I think it should be made clearer when the people died. For example, during the first war, or during the second. Anyone think the system should be revised? --Drak2

Right now there's little need; it all depends on what happens in the sixth book. And now that I'm talking I'd like to go on record saying that putting "excessively deceased" into the list was so worth it. :) --Kizor 16:58, 15 July 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Creatures Loyal to the Order

I deleted the "Creatures Loyal to the Order" section. Just because the creatures listed helped fight Voldemort does not make them loyal to the Order. Grawp was loyal to Hagrid, Dobby was loyal to Harry, Kreacher was loyal to RAB and Harry, and the centaurs never showed any loyalty to the order. This is not a "Second War" page, not everyone and everything that oppossed Voldemort (may his name be forgotten) should be listed. (Plus, the whole section was unsourced).

Well please sign your comments, and i will get sources and relable the section then re add **Ko2007** 23:18, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

As a matter of fact I have found a source and am going to re add the page, later on i have also changed the title of the page and hopefully it will be better! **Ko2007** 23:24, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Sorry I didn't sign the above comment. Maybe the section could be replaced with a more accurate name.--152.23.100.89 15:40, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] I can't believe it...

Anyone else bothered that the original Order of the Phoenix gets disambiguated, and this kiddie book gets top billing? Maybe we should move Medal of Honor (computer game) to Medal of Honor and move that spot's current occupant to Medal of Honor (American medal)? --Jpbrenna 6 July 2005 00:06 (UTC)

Nope, not bothered at all. I suspect far more people will come to this page looking, if anything, for Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix (which, incidentally, is the book itself — this is only an organisation within the book), instead for some Greek medal, no offense to the Greeks. Also, I haven't ever heard of Medal of Honor (computer game), but I doubt it would have as many people looking for it as for this article here. Hermione1980 6 July 2005 00:11 (UTC)
There is a Greek Wikipedia at [1]. I hope that they have the medal listed ahead of the Harry Potter book. --MrBawn 02:11, August 10, 2005 (UTC)

I agree with Jpbrenna on this; even though Harry Potter book is more popular than the medal, the book's name isn't "The Order of The Phoenix", and the medal's name is. --MaxW

[edit] Dumbledore's Army

It should be noted that Dumbledore's Army has assisted the Order in the Second War. --MrBawn 02:11, August 10, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Analysis of the name

I wonder if the article has space for an analysis of the name of the Order. There is only one line: that it might be related to Fawkes in some way. There are perhaps other more probable possibilities, like the original Order knowing that Voldemort will come back some day, like a phoenix, or that the Order will reform when that happens, again like a phoenix. Or something? Saksham 00:00, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Albus Dumbledore: original OotP survivor?

I restored Dumbledore as a survivor of the original Order of the Phoenix because I feel he survived the original war that the Order had to fight, but I see that an anon as removed him and a few others. Should this list include those who survived when they were members of the original Order, but killed when they were in the new Order, or removed entirely from both lists? I feel they should still be in the first list because while they were killed later, they certainly were among the survivors in the original Order. --Deathphoenix 16:15, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] a little cleanup

The third paragraph under Creation and Purpose - "Due to the ministry also forcing...Voldemort had indeed risen again." - needs to be cleaned up as there is clearly something missing. I don't know enough about the subject to do it myself.--65.113.254.215 02:55, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

It seems like a very jumbled and fragmented sentence. I'll do what I can to clean it up. Agent0042 20:31, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mrs Figg and Olympe Maxime

Why are they listed as "Known members of the reconstituted Order of the Phoenix"? I have never seen any mention of them being OotP members. Can anyone provide book and pages numbers? If not, I'm going to remove. -Greg Asche (talk) 06:16, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

  • Not sure about Arabella Figg, she certainly works with the OotP but whether she can be labelled a member or not i'm not sure, maybe needs discussing? Olympe Maxime however should not be there and I think is safe to delete. Death Eater Dan 06:24, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Arabella Figg is canonically a member of the Order. At the end of Book 4, Dumbledore has Sirius gather up "the old crowd", of which Arabella Figg is one. Every other name mentioned is an Order member, so it would be safe to assume that the old crowd is a reference to the Order. Maxime is never stated as an order member, but did go on the giant mission on behalf of the Order. If we're including the Weasley twins, for whose membership there is absolutely no evidence, Maxime definitely deserves a similar qualified mention. scharferimage 1:58, 19 December 2006

[edit] Loyalists and sympathizers

I just rewrote this section. "Loyalist" and "sympathizer" aren't official terms in the Potterverse, so artificially delineating them as precisely as done here makes little sense. Additionally, the language "do the Order's bidding" seems a little crude—these are people that are helping the Order because they agree with it, not because they're commanded to. I removed the reference to the Diggorys—nothing makes them special in this regard: Why isn't Susan Bones a sympathizer? Or Amelia Bones a member? —Ryan McDaniel 18:11, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Link at the bottom

I removed the link at the bottom, because I consider it simple self-linking. JohanTenge 18:37, 21 June 2006 (UTC) - If anyone has anything to say about this, please do so also on my talk page.

[edit] Sturgis Podmore

Should it be noted that Podmore, while surviving, is in jail, or at least was in jail and was never mentioned as having been released? scharferimage 1:54, 19 December 2006

[edit] The Prewett Brothers

Have we been told that Fabian was in the Order? Michaelsanders 21:09, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes. He was in Moody's photo of the first Order. Secondsilk 04:37, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] In universe warning

As there is no discussion here about the {{in-universe}} warning, and I have altered the intro paragraph, I am removing the warning from the article page. --zandperl 05:03, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

You didn't alter the lead; you just added an italicized note disclaiming the fictional nature of this article. That doesn't solve the problem; the problem is that this article is written as though the Harry Potter novels were histories instead of stories. This article doesn't place any of this in a real-world context, uses past tense liberally to describe fictional events, and just plain reads like a fanpage. WP:WAF has more on this, and how to avoid it. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 07:05, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Template messages

Should something be done about the excess of template messages on the article? Hallpriest9 (Talk | Archive) 05:01, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes! I recommend rewriting this article from a real-world perspective, based on reliable sources that aren't personal observation of the novels and films. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 05:03, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Membership lists

These different lists need to be completely reworked so that it's not such an in-your-face spoiler, the first bit is more than just a list of names, and the "former members" table isn't written from the perspective of the seventh book. 24.4.253.249 05:49, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

In addition to the above comment, why does everything have to be with respect to the last book? It's not like the books are going on in "real-time." Olin 19:09, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
I agree. There would be some value in splitting the list into members who joined the Order when it was first formed, before the main events of the series, and those who joined during Books 5-7. But as it stands, the "current" and "former" lists really just mean "survived Book 7" and "died during or before Book 7". This also means the "status" column is largely redundant, as everyone listed as a "current member" was alive as of the end of the series.
I'm going to attempt to rearrange things into a more sensible order, but I'll need help getting all the characters into their correct place. CKarnstein 01:14, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
Well, it didn't take long for my work to be undone. I've given my reasoning above, and would appreciate hearing why it was reverted so quickly. I'd like to add that all this "current" and "former" member business is in-universe. In the real world it doesn't make sense to say that Dumbledore for instance is a "former" Order member. A reader can pick up Book 5 anytime and read all about him as a "current" member. He's only "former" from the in-universe perspective of characters in Book 7. CKarnstein 02:31, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

I did revert your work because it can be organized better and I had planned to do so but I wasn't able to so I apologize, I had other things that I had to do. I will be instead doing a little clean up on it so please if you see anything wrong with it or see anything that you believe shouldn't be there please change it and tell here why you did so. Thanks **Ko2007** 13:20, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Organis/zation

This is a fictional organisation in a book by a British author set in Britain. Therefore it makes sense to use the British spelling of the word. Discuss instead of wheel warring? - Zeibura (Talk) 11:25, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Agree - from the Manual of Style: "it is acceptable to change from American to British spelling if the article concerns a British topic, and vice versa". There should be no discussion here, honestly. British spelling wins in articles on British topics. Forteblast 18:17, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
No discussion. MOS explicitly says British spelling. Will (talk) 17:40, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Actually its not a british topic, the book was published in the US as well, just because she is a British author dosent mean that its a british topic, it is set in britain yes, but ur wrong. ko2007 08:14, 10 August 2007

Actually, that's exactly what it means. It was written in Britain, by a British author, for a British publisher, about a British character in a fictional British school. As they have pointed out, the Manual of Style specifically instructs on this sort of situation. So, technically, you're wrong. But it's okay - it happens to all of us. Except me, of course - I'm perfect.
(Of course I'm joking.) Anyway, let us know if you come up with any other reasons. See you in the funny pages! =David(talk)(contribs) 22:16, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure if there's any distinction between the article's content per se and the title that refers to it.

I'm of the opinion that the title itself comprises metadata, especially since the word in dispute is suffixed and in parenthesis. IMHO, metadata like titles should follow general wikipedia practice, and I've noticed that the vast majority of article titles where an s vs z situation occurs use a z.

Of course, the article's content itself should follow british conventions. But not necessarily the title, that's wikipedia's metadata —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shentino (talk • contribs) 18:45, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Surviving Characters that "may" be Order members

There's not a shred of evidence to suggest that these people are in the Order, except that they and the Order may have fought on the same side. Suggesting that Horace Slughorn is an Order member is absurd. Harry, Ron, etc. are never said to join the Order. The Order is a distinct group of people, not just anyone who fought Voldemort. This section should be deleted. If I don't see a response to this in a day, I'll do it. Scharferimage 20:09, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree. I thought it was pretty clear in Half-Blood Prince that Slughorn was not actually a member of the Order. He refused to join because it would put him in danger.

220.253.109.74 04:36, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. Just because they fought against Voldemort does not make them Order members. I'll get rid of the "May be Order Members" section.

Ron and Hermione did at least one mission for the Order, namely helping Harry escape from Privet Drive in book 7. But all the others are just speculation, and they are somewhat inconsequently chosen. Why are Slughorn, Flitwick, Sprout and Pomfrey mentioned, but not Sybill Trelawney, who fought as well? Why are Neville and Ginny mentioned, but not Luna? IMO, Ron, Hermione and Madame Maxime should be mentioned, because we know that each one of them did at least one mission for the Order, and the others should be deleted. Neville Longbottom 11:20, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Neville and Ginny are mentioned because they fought, this section is not stupid amd if you delete it i will just put it back. Neville destroyed a Horcrux, so just leave it alone 04:49 PM CENTRAL ( 4 August 2007)

Neville destorying a Horcrux does not make him an Order member. And Luna fought as well, so did Dean Thomas, Seamus Finnigan, Lavender Brown, Ernie Macmillan... As you can see from my user name, I love Neville. But he's not an Order member. Neville Longbottom 22:22, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

I have changed the title of May be members, to are associated with order/may be members. I hope this helps a little. Ko2007--05:00 PM US CMT-- 4 August 2007

[edit] Rework and Revision

I've gone through and removed all the OR; only what is in the novels is now on the page. I also eliminated the 'in-universe' style. User Ko2007 seems to disagree, but until he/she comes to this page and gives a valid reason for going against guidlines, I will monitor and RV any non-Wiki content he/she inserts.DiScOrD tHe LuNaTiC 19:05, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

I put things in there that can be easily deduced from the books, and from interviews with JK Rowling, please explain what is wrong with what i am including and i will be happy to revise what i include, but the things that i put i believe they are true. Or as i said easily deduced from writing. Ko2007---04:54 US CMT August 4, 2007.

Deductions, however "easily" made, are original research, which is not permissible in Wikipedia articles. Therefore, they do not belong in the article unless they bear a citation from a good source. As for things J.K. Rowling says, they should include a citation and be introduced by saying "according to an interview," or something to that effect. I am overall inclined to agree with DiScOrD tHe LuNaTiC regarding the style on this page. In-universe style is rampant in HP articles (there are about 25 that are currently flagged as in-universe), and it is good to see someone doing something about it. -Phi*n!x 01:33, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Well I changed the title to Surviving characters that are associated with Order/may be members

I think that should suffice Kris 10:55, 4 August 2007, (USCMT)

Ko2007, I am somewhat glad to see that you've decided to make your views known on the Talk page. Having said that, however, Original Research, even if it is something that everyone who has read the book can infer from simply reading the book, CANNOT BE USED ON WIKIPEDIA. Only things that are stated verbatim by the author/creator can be used; by Wikipedia's rules we cannot draw our own conclusions and fold them into the article. I have again reverted the page to my edit, and as I said before, will continue to do so. This is not a vendetta on my part; I am only trying to keep the article inside Wikipedia guidelines. In-Universe style is also frowned upon here, so I've removed all of that. These are fictional storylines and characters, not real-world news, and to treat it as such goes against Wikipedia guidelines.DiScOrD tHe LuNaTiC 08:39, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

DiScOrD tHe LuNaTiC, I will leave it how you have it, however would adding a section with characters that are assoiated with Order, and having missions that they worked with the Order, be with in the guidlines. Ko2007 12:00 PM (USCMT) 5 August 2007

My apologies, folks, if I've caused a problem here. The entry for Nymphadora Tonks in "Reconstituted" did not seem to make sense to have her killed, then "later married". It seems I missed that these two sentences have been switched around a great deal. (They now say Later married to Remus Lupin and mother of Teddy Lupin. Killed by Bellatrix Lestrange during the Battle of Hogwarts.). Could we have a consensus on which order these two lines ought to be in, and I will be happy to stick by the majority vote. Reynardo 3:30am AEST, 22 October 2007 —Preceding comment was added at 17:30, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Former Members

I have removed Ameila Bones from the former members section, as she was never a proven member to my knowledge, please prove me wrong. As that would be OR i removed it. Ko2007 12:05 PM (USCMT) 5 August 2007

....Wow...I can't believe I did all that editing, went through and checked off the members, but still somehow missed that. *shakes head at self*DiScOrD tHe LuNaTiC 18:11, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

it may have been added after you checked you never know, unless you check history. Oh well its fixed. Ko2007 14:47, 5 August 2007 (USCMT)

[edit] Major Characters That Have Assisted Order

Expanded this. Ko2007, this was a well-thought out and relevant addition to the article, and one I'm rather embarrassed to realize I didn't come up with. See, I can get stuff wrong too.p)DiScOrD tHe LuNaTiC 18:34, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

I added Percy to the list and will be adding more in the future, when I have time. I also removed "Major" from the title. Due to the fact that every character that has helped them should be listed, cause they may have and probably did play an important part in Voldemort's downfall. Even if they didnt why not list them(i.e. Olympe Maxime,) she didnt play an "important" part but never the less why not list her. Ko2007 14:46, 5 August 2007 (USCMT)

[edit] Surviving Members

Someone moved former members and survivng members together. I changed them back. Ko2007 16:48, 5 August 2007 (USCMT)

[edit] How is it "in universe"????

Oh wait i no cuz its umm nott User:Ko2007

Actually, it appears that it is. I'll take a look at it in a little bit. =David(talk)(contribs) 23:34, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
Please, please...we don't want to see you violate the three-revert rule. Why do you believe it isn't in in-universe style? =David(talk)(contribs) 00:03, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

OMG im sorry i thought you were saying it had origional research sorry, User:Ko2007

Don't worry about it! It's all good. Make sure you're familiar with the three-revert rule, though - it's an important part of Wikipedia, and you got dangerously close to it today. We're glad to have you, though; hope to see more edits soon! =David(talk)(contribs) 00:19, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Advance Guard

I know "The Advance Guard" is a chapter title (OOTP 3), but the phrase is never used in the main text, and thus I don't believe it is the official name of an organisation and should not be given initial capitals. Also, if it's necessary to note exactly who was in the advance guard, shouldn't at least some space be given to explaining what the advance guard was? (And it's "advance", not "advanced".) 91.105.55.179 01:09, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Good Point but still it is something that they did or participated in with the order, and it was the name of the group that came and got harry. User:Ko2007

[edit] Tag Removal on 08-09

I've read most of the HP Wiki articles, and this isn't really any more in-universe than any of them, so I've removed a bit, edited a bit of syntax, and removed the tag. I also shortened the plot summary somewhat and therefore removed that tag. And though all information in the article is 100% from the books, if specific page and quote references are needed, I will do my best to supply them in the future.DiScOrD tHe LuNaTiC 13:04, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't know who added the tags in the first place, but I think you did a pretty good job and support your removal of the tags. High five! =David(talk)(contribs) 13:57, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

It lacks any meaningful out-of-universe content, i.e. development of the OOtP by Rowling, any kind of analysis by third parties, etc. WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS isn't a really good argument. hbdragon88 19:01, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

It's certainly far, far too in-universe. We should restore that particular tag. --Tony Sidaway 19:55, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
In fact, all it is is plot summary sourced to personal observation of the books. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 00:19, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
There is also a lack of real-world content to show that it is notable enough to warrant an article, and an in-universe perspective that detaches it from the rest of Wikipedia. I'm sure there's real-world content out there, though; Rowling does a TON of interviews and many newspaper articles are out there. The trick is doing the research to find it. — Deckiller 12:32, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pomona Sprout and Ernie Macmillan

I think Pomona Sprout shoudl be added to the "Assisted Order" section, since she assisted in the Second War and she was one of McGonagall's and Harry's strongest supporters.

Likewise I think Ernie shoudl be taken out, because he may have assisted with the dmeentors, but so did Seamus, and he was there because he was a member of the DA Small5th 16:48, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Battle" and "war"

References to "Battle of ..." and "... War" should be removed from this article. See here for centralized discussion and links to the relevant pages. Savidan 01:34, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Current Head

there is no proof of whom the head of the order is, nor is the re proof that it is still operational. So do not name a "head" because we dont even know if the order is still operational ko2007 19:16, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Creatures Loyal

Umm I dont see any reason for why whom ever deleted the creatures section! So please give one here! **Ko2007** 22:28, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

  • Look near the top. Its up there.--Gyrcompass 21:07, 12 September 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Edit taking away nomination for deletion

That edit by 82.152.251.93 taking away the notice that this article is nominated for deletion was done by me but I forgot to log in. --MacMad (talk · contribs)  09:27, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Harry Potter Articles have gone Down Hill

Ever since the articles were condensed I have had to go other places to find articles on Harry Potter. What was wrong with the way it was before? Narcissa & Lucius Malfoy, Peter Pettigrew and even Bellatrix Lestrange reduced to "Dark wizards in Harry Potter," Tonks, Cornelius Fudge, and Kingsley Shacklebolt reduced to "Ministry officials in Harry Potter," Filch, Flitwick, Lockhart, Lupin, Mad-Eye, Quirrell, Slughorn, Sprout, Trelawney, and Umbridge all listed at "Hogwarts staff" - it's all chaotic. I understand the need to reduce the articles, but you are doing so at the detriment to vital data. Before when one would read about Elphias Doge who was part of the "Minor members of the Order of the Phoenix" article it was mentioned that Dumbledore and he attended the same years at Hogwarts and that he was part of the advanced guard that rescued Harry at the beginning of Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix. But now if one were to click on Elphias Doge a paragraph is reduced to two sentences which barely covers his contribution to the story. This is crap - go back to the way it was. It was not broken so why was it fixed. In reality is was not fixed. What was done was to break something that was not broken in the first place. I say we use the history link to set everything back and then work from scratch again. Maybe combine the Malfoy Parents into one article, go back to Minor members of the Order of the Phoenix article, separate the major bad guys from those mentioned in passing. I mean Bellatrix, the woman who killed Sirius Black, a minor dark wizard? And Dolores Umbridge, a major antagonist of the fifth book, the one who Steven King declared one of the all time greatest villains, deserves her own article as well. That is BS! I believe in an effort to condense more problems were created that need to be addressed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jcsrauch (talk • contribs) 22:16, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

May I recommend visiting the Harry Potter Lexicon? I swear by it, as does J.K. Rowling herself. The trouble is, this is a general purpose encyclopedia, it's never going to be the best source for any specific subject. You're best off going to a site dedicated solely to HP, and the lexicon is the best one out there. faithless (speak) 22:31, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

I do use the Harry Potter Lexicon. However half the time it is down when I go there ~ and I have no set time for going there.

[edit] Horace Slughorn

Should old Slughorn be added to the list of characters that assited the order? Without any doubt, he took a considerable part in Voldemort's defeat by leading the reinforcements to the Battle and by duelling Voldemort himself. Lord Opeth 23:46, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Since the other professors (Sprout, Flitwick, Maxime) are listed, I'd say yes. faithless (speak) 23:58, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Deceased/Alive

The tables shouldn't list the characters as deceased or alive, as this is in-universe format. Agree? faithless (speak) 21:56, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree. I also support this because some of the characters that are listed as "deceased" were "alive" during most of the series (Dumbledore, Snape, Fred, Lupin, Mad-Eye, etc.) Lord Opeth 20:26, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Assistants and Allies section

Is the Assistants and Allies section really useful for this article? In the end, all of those Assistants and Allies are not Order members, which is the topic of this article. --Lord Opeth (talk) 04:10, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, if in three days there is no opposition, I will go ahead and delete that section, as all those characters are not Order members, and all that information already appears in each character's article or section. --Lord Opeth (talk) 16:57, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Logo

Is that image of the logo an official one? It seems fan made. --Lord Opeth (talk) 03:27, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

After looking through the fair use summary, it looks relatively convincing. But if you have doubts, please go ahead and do some research. IceUnshattered (talk) 01:33, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Order of the Phoenix logo.png

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BetacommandBot (talk) 15:44, 8 March 2008 (UTC)