Talk:Old Summer Palace

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I'd recommend removing the reference to "ethnocentric westerners". The misconception about the original architectural composition is not confined to the West. Since the only remains that are visible are in a western classical style, many people within China are not aware of the vast complexes of traditional building that were burnt (or, at least they were not aware until just recently when discussions about a possible future reconstruction fell into the public eye). 61.49.118.255 20:11, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I had exactly the same thought. In addition, even "ignorant foreigners" need not be "Westerners" in all cases, they could just as well come from other Asian countries. The term "ethnocentric Westerners" is even worse, because it may be seen to imply that Westerners are prone to "ethnocentric" thinking. I will change the reference to "Westerners" into "vistors unfamiliar with the past ..." rm 15:13, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I have also tried to talk of "European-style" and "Chinese-style" buildings thoughout the revision of the article's wording. All buildings in the Old Summerpalace were presumably "Chinese buildings" in the sense that they were erected on the orders of Chinese rulers by Chinese craftsmen on Chinese soil. The style is only one aspect of a building and it should be stressed that most likely the "European", "Tibetan", or "Mongol" nature of the buildings was limited to style and maybe some contributions from relatively few foreign craftsmen (I don't know that). rm 16:06, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)

You are both wrongs actually. First of all, the western style buildings are not the only remain that survived the burning of the Old Summer Palace. There is also a complex of temples in the Chinese style located south of the Elegant Spring Garden that survived the burning. All the chinese people perfectly know that the Yuanmingyuan, as it is known in China, was essentially containing Chinese style buildings. There are many paintings representing it. It is only in the West that I have found that people are confused about the nature of the Old Summer Palace. Secondly, user rm is wrong when he says that all the buildings were erected by Chinese craftsmen. The European style buildings were actually built by the Jesuits living at the Imperial Court. These Jesuits were essentially French and Italian. The masons and workers were Chinese of course, but the designers and architects were undoubtly European. Hardouin 11:24, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

We should leave the name Elegant Spring Garden, and not replace with Garden of Elegant Spring. From the Chinese name, it is hard to tell if it is the Spring which is elegant, or if it is the Spring garden which is elegant. The wording Elegant Spring Garden leaves the ambiguity in English, as it is in Chinese. Hardouin 11:57, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Here is my view on Hardouin's comments:

• Even if we assume that all 1.3 billion Chinese are aware of the nature of the Yuanmingyuan's former architecture, there may still be some non-western foreigners who don't know the history of the site, for instance visitors from Japan, Indonesia, Malaysia, and so on.
• A craftsman is a person who performs a skilled manual work. An architect would probably not be called a "craftsman".
• I am aware that the architects of the buildings were french and italian jesuits (I started the articles on Michel Benoist and Jean Denis Attiret, I also worked on the one on Giuseppe Castiglione). When I spoke of "craftsmen", I meant the skilled manual workers, not the architects.

rm 12:54, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] 300 eunuchs and maids claim

I can't find any mention of the "300 eunuchs and maids" burned alive during the palace sacking in any book about the Summer Palace or website (apart from mirrors of wikipedia) about the Summer Palace or any newspaper article, including Chinese English-language newspapers. Unless good sources can be found for this claim, I'm going to take it out after a week or so. Bwithh 00:18, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, the Chinese Wikipedia article stated such claim, and I would imagine that's probably where this article got its statement from. Due to the enormous size of the Old Summer Palace, and how many people occupied in it, it wouldn't be illogical to question a large number of death due to the burning and destruction of the site. Whether how many did die, that would depends upon the sources. --67.2.148.28 06:50, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

My point is that I can't find ANY mention of deaths / massacre etc. in English language accounts, even when the account is from Chinese publications, and goes into great detail about how bad the looting was and how barbaric it was for the Western imperialists to burn the place, there is no mention of a massacre. It's not logical to assume that there were many deaths - people could run away, be taken prisoner, be released, or - if you want to believe that there was a massacre - "X" number of people could have been killed by other means. So the 300 figure is totally unverified speculation at this point. WP:V is non-negotiable. I'll give this a few more days and then I'm taking it out. Bwithh 16:14, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

I can't find any sources either, which is surprising if it's true, so I'm moving the claim here:

More than 300 eunuchs and palace maids were burned to death ^{[citation needed]}.

Please move it back if someone can find a good source for it. --Apyule 11:53, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Oops... I must have forgot to check back on this. My bad. Thanks, Apyule Bwithh 00:27, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

"According the historic document of Qing, on Oct 18, 1860, due to the gate of the Palace Anyou were still locked, more than 300 eunuchs, maids and workers in the palace were unable to esacpe and burned to death" - http://www.china.com.cn/culture/txt/2007-11/15/content_9235238_7.htm Flywhc (talk) 22:38, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] The Yuanming Yuan Movie

A movie on the history of Yuanming Yuan was aired in China not long ago...it contains some 3D renderings of the palace along with the histrical events that took place.it also mentioned the 300 eunuchs and maids burned alive in the room where the portraits of the former emperors are.Apeerantly, the forgein invaders did not know there were 300 people buring inside,so...it's not really a massacre. Where did the movie get this info, I do not know, but you guys should watch it. DivineBaboon 05:06, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Here's what i have found on the movie with a short promo video and pictures.CCTV link some other link they have some fuzzy screenshots of the 3D rendering and such. Interstingly enough i can't find any information of the movie on the English google....hmmm Edit:I found a link that has it's describtion in English "yesasia.com" DivineBaboon 05:13, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Han Chauvanism

I won't claim to be an expert on great lootings of the world, but the sentence, "The burning of the old summer palace is regarded as the most destructive action ever in history," smacks of textbook CCP propaganda designed to escalate nationalist sentiment. I'm sure many events could easily qualify for this dubious "distinction," such as the sack of Constantinople in the Fourth Crusade. ValensNYC 06:21, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

I myself, wouldn't go to say that I am an expert in history of the world (yet), but you're comparing different sections of the world, Eastern and Western. It may also be noted; inside the Old Summer Palace were artifacts dating over 3,500 years old. Now regardless of what orientation in the world (Western or Eastern), the destruction of something, of that age is pretty much barbaric. Trs Dailly Rubbings 19:11, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but to quantify it with a label like that is completely against Neutral Point-of-View.

Crimson Phantom - April 2, 2008 18:04