Talk:Nizzardo Italians

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

	Nizzardo Italians is within the scope of WikiProject Italy, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to articles on Italy on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
B	This article has been rated as B-Class on the Project's quality scale. (If you rated the article please give a short summary at comments to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses.)
High	This article has been rated as High-importance on the importance scale.

	France Portal Nizzardo Italians is within the scope of WikiProject France, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to France on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please join the project and help with our open tasks.
B	This article has been rated as B-Class on the Project's quality scale. (If you rated the article please give a short summary at comments, explaining the ratings and/or suggest improvements.)

"Nizzardo Italians are the Italian speaking populations of the County of Nice (Nizza)." What??? Who invented this? Nizzardi are mostly of Italian background anyways... period. Most now speak French, but they are still Nizzardi (in Italian language, anyway). This is like saying "Corsican Italians" where "Corsicans" suffices... somewhat redundant. What is the purpose of this drivel? Mariokempes (talk) 00:51, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

On the book of Gray, Ezio Le terre nostre ritornano... Malta, Corsica, Nizza. De Agostini Editoriale can be read that "...Since 1861, after a sustained process of Frenchification, only in the coast around Mentone and in the mountains around Tenda there are still some Nizzardo Italians..."

That means that actually nearly 98% of the people living in the County of Nice do not speak the Italian language or the Ligurian dialect and so they are NOT "Nizzardo Italians", but French people. B.D. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.231.200.245 (talk) 03:11, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Hello Brunodam (I assume it is you? Glad to see you are back editing). The book you quote is, unfortunately, a biased piece of irredentist propaganda... le terre nostre ritornono!!!? The population of the the county of Nice IS primarily of Italian descent. The fact they no longer speak Italian or Ligure- but are french-speaking, French citizens- does NOT make them non-Italian. There is no need to distinguish those who may still speak Italian from those who do not. To say anything otherwise makes this article a vehicle for 19th C style nationalism which, quite frankly, has no room in modern european society. You know very well the ridiculous nationalist discussions that are happening at Talk:Dalmatian Italians... please don't start that again. Mariokempes (talk) 17:29, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Even if I am not B.D., I want to pinpoint that your tag is wrong, dear Mario. The irredentist book about "le nostre terre ritornano" is a scholar book (even if written in fascist times) and so it is not "original research".

Furthermore, the term Nizzardo Italians appears on pag 16 and 34 of the book of Holt, Edgar "The Making of Italy 1815–1870". The term is translated in English from the "Memorie" of Giuseppe Garibaldi, who created the italian term "Nizzardi Italiani" when writed about the 11000 persons from his Nizza forced to take refuge in Italy after France annexed in 1861 his native region. Garibaldi wanted to differentiate the "real" Nizzardi Italiani from the others who voted in 1861 for France, mainly in the interior mountanous areas of the County of Nice where most spoke the Occitan dialect. Indeed, as I have written "Immediately after 1861, the French government closed all the newspapers in Italian and more than 11,000 Nizzardo Italians moved to the Kingdom of Italy. The dimension of the "exodus" can be deducted by the fact that in the Savoy census of 1858, Nizza had only 44,000 inhabitants".....but nearly 20000 of those 44000 were Occitan speaking people (immigrated from the mountains to the city area for work) and used to call themselves French Provenzals. Regards.--Brunodam (talk) 02:55, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I never stated "le nostre terre ritornano" is "original research". I do emphatically state that it is irredentist fascist propaganda [For those that don't understand Italian, "le nostre terre ritornano" translates as "our lands return to us"]. The biggest issue that I have with this article is that it is removed from the historical context- there is not contemporary notion of a nizzardo italiano and to suggest so IS original research. Mariokempes (talk) 20:28, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Interesting article; However, I agree this article seems somewhat fabricated and is clearly designed to emphasize historical content. It is not about an Italian people per se. As such, I think the people of the region of Nice that supported Italian unification cannot really be called "Nizzard Italians", and the fact that many in the area are of possible Italian (Ligurian?) descent- or at least Italian-like Provencal- makes this even more questionable. Without getting into linguistics, let me point out the Nizzard dialect may have been Italian and not Occitan, but keep in mind Occitan is very similar to the Piedmontese dialects. In essence, pointing to language here becomes irrelevant (although shameful that the dialect is essentially lost to French). Dionix (talk) 04:53, 22 April 2008 (UTC)