Talk:Nikolaj Velimirović

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[edit] On copyright

Copyrighted text on this page used with permission. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nikola Smolenski (talk • contribs) 13:32, 24 September 2003 (UTC)

[edit] On anti-semitism

The person described in this article has expressed vitriolic anti-semitic views and has often, orally and in writing, approved the holocaust.

During WWII he was brought to Dachau, as were other prominent European clergy, because the Nazis believed he could be useful for propaganda. There he spent approximately two months as an "Ehrenhaftling" (honour prisoner) in a special section, dining on the same food as the German officers, living in private quarters, and making excursions into town under German escort. From Dachau, he wrote:

"Europe is presently the main battlefield of the Jew and his father, the devil, against the heavenly Father and his only begotten Son... (Jews) first need to become legally equal with Christians in order to repress Christianity next, turn Christians into atheist, and step on their necks. All the modern European slogans have been made up by Jews, the crucifiers of Christ: democracy, strikes, socialism atheism, tolerance of all religions, pacifism, universal revolution, capitalism and communism... All this has been done with the intention to eliminate Christ... You should think about this, my Serbian brethren, and correspondingly correct your thoughts, desires and acts. (Bishop Nikolaj Velimirovic: Addresses to the Serbian People--Through the Prison Window. Himmelsthur, Germany: Serbian Orthodox Eparchy for Western Europe, 1985, pp. 161-162) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.111.8.98 (talk • contribs) 22:03, 13 May 2005 (UTC)

I agree. A nationalist and anti-semite. It seems to me that his antisemtism is particularly primitive (not that antisemitism can ever be anything else). The list does not end there. In his writings about Saint Sava, from 1935, Nikolaj said of Hitler that he managed to create something akin to a national German church and that, in that, he is similar to Sveti Sava. He was very close to Ljotic, a war criminal. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Markosavic (talk • contribs) 22:18, 13 May 2005 (UTC)

It has been suggested by some[1][2] that his anti-semitic writings from Dachau were in fact made under duress. Hitler did quite a lot to oppress Serbs, especially because they did so much to help Jews during his reign. According to the standard Orthodox Church records[3], he suffered torture and imprisonment at Dachau, not a comfortable life as a Nazi propagandist.

This should all be incorporated into the section regarding Nikolai's alleged anti-semitism. If it doesn't we've got some serious POV problems here, as it seems only the side regarding him to be an anti-semite is currently represented. --Preost 12:56, May 14, 2005 (UTC)

Just as a further note: The above text is copied verbatim from this website[4], which is hardly NPOV. So, if we're going to represent one POV, we've got to represent the other. --Preost 13:02, May 14, 2005 (UTC)

Has Velimirovic expressed anti-semitic views in any other book but the one quoted? It seems that there are a number of them. For detailed discussion see East European Perspectives

Is there any merit in the claim that he wrote these words under duress? See Tomanic, M., 2001, "Srpska Crkva u ratu i rat u njoj" [The Serbian Church During the War and the Wars within It] (Beograd: Medijska Knjizara Krug).

Whereas it seems obvious that Velimirovic refused to collaborate with the Nazis he was very close to Ljotic, a fact reflected in some of his writing after WWII. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Markosavic (talk • contribs) 16:05, 14 May 2005 (UTC)

There is no need to rem. archbishop Brussels-Changhai Jovan and Fr. Alexander Shmeman from article; they have no connection with disputed parts of article. --Ninam 22:08, 14 May 2005 (UTC)

Please lets have in mind that all this acussations are made by communist regime in order to destroy his reputation. Anybody familliar with works of Nikolai Velimirovic knows that his filosofy is everything that anti-semitism is not.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.103.51.187 (talk • contribs)

Of course he is not anti-semitis. The quoted statement is false, there is no such sentence and it is constructed to destroy his reputation. He did wrote quite a bit about Jaws in that book but what he wrote about is, basically, that the evil that is spreeding throughout Europe, in the form of German WWII campaign and the state of mind in Jew leaders who qrusificed Christ 2000 years ago, have the same root. Ironically, he also said, but that is the way it was. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.252.96.244 (talk) 12:28, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Alleged"

What's the point of some many "alleged" and "supposed"? You can see clear anti-semitism in his writings. --Dejan Čabrilo 20:20, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

I am going through all of his works linked here to see that anti-semitism.

In [5], Jews are mentioned three times: "I am descending deep in my mind, and am finding Jews in it, who prevent entrance to you, my Light Tsar, and who filled all the world by stories about their escape from the pharaonic tsardom, which didn't escaped from them."; "Here is a good shepherd, who praises life of one sheep more than all Jewish sabbaths"; "Worse will happen to their people, which gave birth to them, than to Jewish people. For they had the example of Jewish people, and that didn't thought them".

In [6], Jews are mentioned once: "Orthodoxy was first defined by the Christian Jews and Greeks during the first eight hundred years."

I don't see clear anti-semitism. Nikola 01:26, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

I suppose you believe St. John Chrysostom and other Christian Saints are anti-semetic as well just because they speak against Judaism... --KCMODevin 04:15, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] update is due

Someone please add to article recent (somewhat recent) canonization of this bishop by Serbian Orthodox Church. I don't recall exact date... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.91.1.41 (talk • contribs) 09:52, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] This biography is spotty

It's important to be careful of accusations of anti-Semitism in cases like this. It's nowhere near as obvious as some respondents appear to think. The case for his anti-Semitism is strong, but his support of the German national church does not entail this. Likewise does the dubious backstory of "Words from Behind a Prison Window" bring into question what can justifiably be taken from it. Moreover, the account of Velimirovic's early life is outright wrong, especially in regard to his education. I will update this article later and correct many of these errors. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.10.176.82 (talk • contribs) 00:36, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Nikolaj Velimirovic and antisemitic Ortodox church

From Dachau, this venerated Serbian priest endorsed the Holocaust: "Europe is presently the main battlefield of the Jew and his father, the devil, against the heavenly Father and his only begotten Son… (Jews) first need to become legally equal with Christians in order to repress Christianity next, turn Christians into atheist, and step on their necks. All the modern European slogans have been made up by Jews, the crucifiers of Christ: democracy, strikes, socialism atheism, tolerance of all religions, pacifism, universal revolution, capitalism and communism… All this has been done with the intention to eliminate Christ… You should think about this, my Serbian brethren, and correspondingly correct your thoughts, desires and acts. (Bishop Nikolaj Velimirovic: Addresses to the Serbian People–Through the Prison Window. Himmelsthur, Germany: Serbian Orthodox Eparchy for Western Europe, 1985, pp. 161-162)." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Thomascrow (talk • contribs) 00:42, 7 May 2007 (UTC).

This questionable quotation has already been mentioned and rebutted above. The Orthodox Church is NOT antisemitic! Individual members may have been—as many Protestant leaders in the past have also been—but such views are a perversion of the Faith. The Church itelf is based upon the Gospel of Jesus Christ which teaches us to love and honour all people: "in Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek, but all are one in Christ Jesus". There is nothing in Orthodox doctrine which is antisemitic. Disagreement with the teachings of Judaism is different from antisemitism. It is unfair to condemn the whole for the words and actions of a few. Hitler was born a Roman Catholic, does that make Catholicism responsible for the Holocaust? Reasonable people would say no. MishaPan 14:33, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Nikolai or Nikolaj?

Correct Serbian spelling is "Nikolaj", not "Nikolai", so I think the article should be moved to "Nikolaj Velimirović". Vanjagenije 00:13, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 16:13, 10 November 2007 (UTC)