Talk:Nez Perce

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The section on the Nez Perce language should have its own article. Besides, it already has a stub marker on it. Thus, I will move it. Any comments? --ROY YOЯ 1 July 2005 21:06 (UTC)

On second thought, this should probably be done after the article grows a bit larger. --ROY YOЯ 1 July 2005 21:11 (UTC)

Well, an anonymous simply blanked the entire language section. I recovered it and made a new article Nez Percé language out of it, now linked to from this page. --Angr/tɔk tə mi 00:58, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Spelling of the tribal name

The correct spelling of this Tribe is without the accent. I have tried discussing this with several editors and they have changed every one of the titles and occurrences of the tribal name.

A name is a name. You may use the accent to describe the French term for the origin of the tribal name, but the tribe itself spells it with the Americanized name. Robbie Giles 22:07, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

I agree...the U.S. Government doesn't spell it that way and the tribal members do not want the name accented.--MONGO 13:28, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

Nez Perce is originally a French term.It is irrelevant whether or not U.S. Gov. documents ignore the correct spelling, historical accuracy should be maintained. Within the tribal organization, spelling varies also, depending on the author. As an Enrolled Nez Perce Tribal member, I believe strongly in historical preservation. Thoughout the ages our traditional Nimiipuu descriptive names for geographical sites have sadly been Americanized and now there are many of which the accurate traditional names are no longer remembered. VBybee1

[edit] Phonetic Pronounciation

It would be nice to have a phonetic spelling of the name. Is it correct to say it as Nee Paw?

[edit] This self-designation is a common practice of aboriginal peoples the world over?

The Nez Perce's name for themselves is Ni-Mii-Puu (pronounced nee-mee-poo), which means simply "the People." This self-designation is a common practice of aboriginal peoples the world over.

This statement evidences lack of perspective In fact, I think the statement shows ethnocentricity, or lack of perspective, when stating that aboriginal peoples call themselves simply "The People."

Other languages (which are not dubbed aboriginal) have a word meaning something like people. I do not think the statement in bold is appropriate because in languages that are not "aboriginal," you still can notice the use of words such as "Human beings," "Humankind," etc, to refer to People. I call myself people or human in my own language (In Spanish, you say "Persona, Gente, Humano, Ser Humano, etc"), and when speaking in English, I would like to be consider a "person". The statement above could apply in my case, although I do not belong to a so-called aboriginal people.

I hope we can come up with a better solution, or with information that could be more helpful.

[edit] Moving name stuff to end

Because the most important thing about the tribe may not be the controversy about spelling its name, I moved that part out of the introduction to a section near the end. Unfortunately the images now seem to be clumsily organized around the list of communities. Hmmm. What to do? rewinn 04:41, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Derogatory?

The term Nez Percé is noted on the List of ethnic slurs. Is this because of the term itself used by the French explorers, or the perceived misspelling due to the accent? Is this term really perceived by this group of Native Americans as an ethnic slur? Applejuicefool 17:41, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Good question, why is Nez Perce' noted as an ethnic slur? Being an enrolled Nez Perce' tribal member, I believe that I can reliably state that "no" we do not consider this term as an ethnic slur. Lately, we have been having it voiced by our Circle of Elders, that we should change our tribal name to Nimiipuu..officially. VBybee1

Hi, guys. Robbie Giles alerted me to this discussion, as I was the one who added Nez Perce to the list of ethnic slurs, as I did with a lot of other names for indiginous peoples mentioned by James W. Loewen on pages 99 - 102 of his book Lies Across America: What Our Historic Sites Get Wrong. Loewen's position is that many such names are derogatory, and although he does not claim that ones based specifically on physical appearance like Nez Percé are derogatory per se, he does mention it in the same area of the book with ones that are. Aside from the fact that using a name for a group other than the one they have chosen for themselves could be construed as negative, one can speculate that Loewen feels it is a form of the same type of cultural imperialism he asserts is practiced when locations with Native American names are replaced with European American ones, as with Denali/Mount McKinley, which is the very first location he mentions in the book. I didn't add sources as vigorously back then as I do now, so I've gone and corrected that oversight. Thanks. Nightscream 06:22, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Alas, Loewen does not cite a source for his one sentence on the Nez Perce. I'm skeptical that information from his text, and the citation belong in the article. JStripes 13:47, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
Loewen is the source. We do not in turn have to verify his. We need to cite sources. Not the sources of sources. WP's policy is attribution, not verifiability. Nightscream 07:27, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Spelling and pronunciation in intro

Referencing this discussion, would it make sense to add a sentence to the intro so that it goes something like this?:

The Nez Perce (pronounced /nɛz pɝs/) are a tribe of Native Americans who inhabited the Pacific Northwest region of the United States at the time of the Lewis and Clark Expedition. The Nez Perce's name for themselves is Ni-Mii-Puu (pronounced nee-mee-poo), which means simply "the People." (The name is also spelled inaccurately as Nez Percé (pronounced /ne pɛrˈse/ as in French). See: Name and language.)

It's kind of a clunky solution--better suggestions are welcome. Or does the explanation in the name and language section suffice? Also, the sentence: "'Nez Perce' is the spelling of the tribe's name preferred by the overwhelming majority of the tribe's members and historians; however, many older works use the French spelling 'Nez Percé,' with the diacritic." needs a citation. I'm not disputing it, but when somebody claims an "overwhelming majority" of people agree about something, it really needs to be backed up with a source. Katr67 21:11, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

What about this? "Nez Perce is the spelling of the tribe's name used by the tribal government and contemporary historians; however, many older works use the French spelling Nez Percé, with the diacritic." The sources can be from the Handbook of North American Indians (v.12) and the official tribal site. I will copy the Nez Perce article from the handbook today for a specific reference. I will find a scholarly source that uses the diacritic as well. One of the US Gov docs may be applicable (such as Lewis & Clark reports to Congress.) --Robbie Giles 13:59, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Robbie Giles is correct to mention the Handbook of North American Indians (v.12), as each article in this series addresses nomenclature. There is also a useful note at the end of the introduction to Yellow Wolf: His Own Story by L.V. McWhorter, where the author explains why he omits the accent mark (except in quotation). Perhaps there is something in the McWhorter Collection at Washington State University that supports McWhorter's complaint that "the absurdly useless accent on the final e of Perce" is used by too many writers.--JStripes 06:32, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Scholarly sources using the diacritic, unfortunately, are easily located. Every text published by the University of Oklahoma Press, except the Sacred Encouunters catalog (a WSU production in which I had a part) uses the accent mark. An editor at UOP referenced Robert Ruby and John Brown as "authorities" in the matter, but deferred to Jacqueline Peterson and published their only book that does it correctly.--JStripes 07:27, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Intro

I changed the intro a bit, as it made it sound like the Nez Perce only existed during Lewis & Clark's time. What I wanted to add was that they had lived there X amount of years before L & C showed up. Can anybody add that figure and a source? Thanks! Katr67 04:34, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

I added a time period of 10,000 years. I tried, rather unsuccessfully, to add a reference. The number of the footnote shows, but the Notes section and citation of the footnote is not visible. I even changed the References section to Bibliography in case that was interfering.Can some kind soul find my error? --Robbie Giles 18:47, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

I tried, only to make it worse. So I restored what you've done.--JStripes 21:28, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Well duh! Put in the Notes section and it works. What directions? a very humble --Robbie Giles 01:09, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
Glad y'all figured it out. :) Thanks for the quick response to my request! Katr67 02:09, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "related groups" info removed from infobox

For dedicated editors of this page: The "Related Groups" info was removed from all {{Infobox Ethnic group}} infoboxes. Comments may be left on the Ethnic groups talk page. Ling.Nut 23:23, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Name was accident...

The name Nez Perce was actually an accident. Apparently a french explorer saw a Native American in the fields and saw a nose ring. Therefore the area around there was known (back then) to be inhabited by "Nez Perce", and the name stuck I guess. Are any mods open to changing this once I find proof? - --Fruzion 01:15, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Edit: Found it... my little brother's textbook :)

Brummett, Edgar, Hackett, Jewsbury, Taylor, Bailkey, Lewis, Wallbank et al. Civilization Past and Present (Volume I: to 1650), 11th edition. Addison, Wesley, and Longman, publications. 2006

There aren't any mods here--if you can cite your sources properly you're welcome to add this information yourself (though you should leave the other theories in place). I'm rather skeptical about the accuracy of textbooks, personally, can you find addtional sources for this theory? Katr67 03:08, 24 May 2007 (UTC)