Talk:New Culture Movement

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[edit] Old talk

There seems to be a common misunderstanding that the New Culture Movement (began in 1915) is the May Fourth Movement (began in 1919). In order to reduce this confusion, the section that discusses the New Culture Movement in May Fourth Movement is recommended to be moved to this page. Also, see ongoing discussion already at Talk:May_Fourth_Movement#May_Fourth_Movement_or_New_Culture_Movement.3F.Caorongjin 23:42, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

My understanding is this order from reading up different materials.
  1. New Culture Movement started in 1915 with the new youth book. It didn't do much at the time..... just raised questions on science, democracy and such.
  2. The May 4th Movement and all the national embarrassment of poor handling of the Treaty of Versailles gave the group all the excuses.
  3. Those old discussions in the New Culture Movement now have new meanings, Communist meaning. Benjwong 06:16, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
I would say your assessment is relatively accurate. The thing is the May 4th movement (named after the May 4th, 1919 protests to the Treaty of Versailles) got its momentum primarily from the New Culture Movement. The New Culture Movement essentially brought challenges to the problems of China through the medium of the New Youth journal and was hence most influential within the intelligencia. It was the impetus for things like the vernacular to propagate its message and challenging Confucianism as a medium of control. When the Treaty of Versailles denied China its assumed privilege, the May 4th movement took the momentum of the New Culture Movement to the masses and focused on more political structures (e.g. CPC, anti-imperialist/-capitalist emphasis of the Anti-Christian Movement, etc.). So, though you are right in that it did not do much at the time, the May 4th movement probably would not have grown to its strength without it. The CPC, for example, used the New Youth journal as the platform to expand itself. Caorongjin 19:59, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Why don't we just throw on an easy time table onto the article background and move all the new culture movement stuff over to this article?

  1. New Culture Movement of 1915
  2. New youth book
  3. New Culture Movement of 1917
  4. Treaties versailles 1919
  5. May Fourth movement 1919
  6. Same Culture Movement (whether it should be mentioned at all?)
  7. Push for Vernacular Chinese
  8. Communist Party of China 1921/1922

When I think about the May fourth movement, I see it as one big protest. Surely different people see it differently. Whereas the New Culture movement keeps on going for years and years. Whether it should be mentioned a 3rd time, I can see why you feel it is questionable. Benjwong 04:25, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, my objection to a table would be the fact that the May Fourth and New Culture movements are seen by Western and Chinese historians as two distinct movements. One was primarily an intellectual movement; the other a movement of the masses on a political level. I think there is actually more stuff that can be placed in the May Fourth movement section that is not already. Caorongjin 05:26, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
Ok I think I know what you are saying. Keep all the political stuff at the May fourth movement article. Move all the anti-capitalist/christianity/traditionalism stuff here. Benjwong 21:59, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
I note this hasn't been done yet - the moving of the new culture movement material. Given how very cursory the new culture movement entry is as well as the problem with conflating the New Culture and May Fourth movements mentioned here I would strongly urge the people working on these pages to follow through on this. --Isoldest (talk) 23:20, 18 January 2008 (UTC)