Talk:Neon Genesis Evangelion glossary

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Contents

[edit] Ancillary glossary

Much of the content on this page came from the (now-removed) merged article "Evangelion ancillary glossary", which is now available at Talk:Neon Genesis Evangelion glossary/Evangelion ancillary glossary. Do not delete that page - we need it (and its history) for Wikipedia copyright reasons! Noel (talk) 19:28, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)

You sure this isn't supposed to be Ancillary Glossary? -- EmperorBMA|話す 02:35, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)

[edit] First Impact

It is written that First Impact was when a meteor hit the earth , braking off pieces of the planet, and eventually forming the moon, but couldn't 1st Impact also be the asteroid that caused the extinction of the dinosaurs? I think that should at least be mentioned in the article somewhere.Prede 06:00, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Image:Secondimpact.jpg First impact is identified on screen as the impact that formed the moon 4 billion years ago. Hellbus 16:23, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
Ok thank you very much. I read before that it was disputed between the two. Thank you (also I have seen it on the Wikipedia article a few times). Thanks for clearing that up.Prede 23:13, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

The article currently states that the Black Moon of Lilith was what hit in First Impact, and part of it broke off and formed the Moon, Earth's satellite. Yet the Black Moon is fully intact as the Geo-Front. I thought that our moon, the satellite was the White Moon, because... It's white. And you couldn't have a moon split in half into two perfectly spherical halves of different colors. I believe it should state that the black moon became embedded in the Earth and the White Moon went into orbit, however that happened. 136.176.8.22 15:31, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

It's definitely confusing...the more logical thing to say would be that the debris cast off by the Black Moon's impact coalesced into the Moon. Willbyr (talk | contribs) 15:54, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Black Moon Vs. White Moon

I'm guessing that the First Impact was caused by the Black Moon hitting Earth, not the White Moon, because otherwise the moon would be mostly ice, not dust. The article currently speculates it is either. Is my conclusion logical (unlike my sentence structure)?

Also, on the subject of the White Moon, there is a confusing contradiction in the bullet for First Impact and the bullet for White Moon. Both indicate it as the egg of Adam (origin of the Angels), but the White Moon's point state that it is in Antarctica (clearly harkening to Second Impact) and First Impact seems to state that it is, well, the Moon, you know...orbiting the Earth. I don't know the answer, so I'm deferring to the greater pool of knowledge that spawned those words in the first place. Go Team!164.223.72.7 13:35, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

"Like the Black Moon containing Lilith, the White Moon was created as a vessel by the aliens known as the First Ancestral Race, one of many such vessels used to seed life on different planets (for what purpose is unknown). White Moons containing Adam-like creatures seeded some planets with Angel-like lifeforms, while Black Moons with Lilith-like creatures created human-like lifeforms on other planets. However, a White Moon and a Black Moon were never supposed to both seed life on the same planet, which ultimately put both humans and Angels in direct competition for control of Earth." - What the hell is this? This is rubbish, it should be deleted; none of this is ever stated in the anime. Pure speculation.

It's not speculation. The NGE 2 video game, considered canonical, explains this more fully, and it does say that a Black Moon and White Moon were never meant to land on the same planet; it's all in there. --Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici 18:21, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
Agreed, but most people who know NGE have never played that specific game, perhaps the source can be more explicitly stated?

[edit] Second Impact

Image:Secondimpact.jpg There are numerous Wiki articles that state the Second Impact took place on September 13th, when the actual date is the 15th! Quill Est Patent 15:02, 2005 September 2 (UTC)

  • Actually, it could be the 13th. The text reads: "Two days after fall of the meteorite, on September 15th, 2000..." This can be interpreted two ways. The events described either took place two days after the 15th, or that the 15th was two days after the impact. I'll leave it as the 13th in the article, though it could be reworded to say that it took place on the 13th or 15th, depending on interpretation. EASports 04:26, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
It is the 13th. In the Director's cut, at least, it is made clear that Gendo leaves on the eleventh and that an experiment is planned on the thirteenth. Even in that picture on the right, the very first line says it happened on the thirteenth. Obsidian-fox 06:01, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
You're right, I didn't notice the earlier line. EASports
Now for the month. The series frequently states September as the month of the Impact. But if you watch the beginning of Death and the Director's Cut version of episode 21, there's a short sequence at the beginning of each that shows a camera feed from Antarctica on the day of the Impact. And the month listed at the bottom is August. Why is that? Just an error? --Malebolge LX 16:47, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

The main article says that the second impact rock was too small to be detected, yet the image (see right) describes it as bein "Massive". Any thoughts?

The image also notes that it was four inches in diameter, traveling at close to the speed of light. An object like that would have massive amounts of kinetic energy; maybe that's what they meant. EASports 22:44, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Lance of Longinus

[edit] Latin Lance

Where in the series was the Lance of Longinus referred to as "Lancia Longina"? I wasn't able to find it. The search for the above on Google returned only two results: this Wikipedia page and the Chinese version of this page.

I checked right now the original DVD, and yes you're right. I was fooled by the fact that in the original japanese version is just called Spear of Longinus, but the italian translation made it look like the Latin form, tansorfming it into Lancia Longinus, which is wrong.
My bad, I corrected the mistake on the page. If you wish to see the transcript, though, here is the link:
http://www.google.com/search?q=longini+site%3Aanimanga.com%2Fscripts%2Ftextesgb&start=0&start=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:unofficial
By the way, KOSAKI Hiroko wrote it into the corrected form Lancea Longini, not the original one.
Federico Pistono 10:20, 2005 September 12 (UTC)

"soul" and "mind" are intense areas of debate in philosophy and psychology, and I don't think using the words "soulless" and "mindless" here means anything at all unless expanded upon, and no, using quote marks doesn't make using them any more valid. Also, a lot of stuff on this page is taken from websites and Gainax released material, since they cannot be inferred from the series, so why isn't anyone bothering to cite the sources?

The MAGI computer is named as "Casper" but the traditional name is "Caspar". Does the series itself make this "mistake"? Should a reference be made, like linking to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caspar ?

The series indeed refers to the MAGI unit as "Caspar". It seems to be a pretty common error by fans (and, occasionally, "official" sources). I'm changing it. The Trashman 00:06, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
Sorry, just checked image search, found this http://www.jasms.de/anime/eva/engel/engel09_02.jpg which suggests the series did get it wrong. I guess we should change the name of the "Caspar" link but keep it pointing to the Caspar article. As this is a source of obvious confusion it perhaps deserves a special clarification.

[edit] Role of Lance

In The Beginning and the End, or Knocking on Heaven's Door, Commander Ikari says essentially that the Lance is a hindrance to his plans. The article currently reads "The Lance is a key piece to the process of Instrumentality." Hackwrench 05:28, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Images

Do we really need both the image of the Lance in lunar orbit and the Lance on the moon? Willbyr (talk | contribs) 03:06, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Hey, why not?--Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici 17:34, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
It just seems a bit redundant. Not a huge concern. Willbyr (talk | contribs) 17:51, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Trench of Malebolge?

Where in the series or movies did this term crop up? I wasn't able to find it, myself, and a search on Google returned nothing related to Evangelion (besides the websites that mirror here - the search string I typed was "Trench of Malebolge" -glossary and "Trench of Malebolge" -equipment where the word glossary and equipment was given the NOT operator because it was completely unrelated to the trench except that it appears on this page). Also, it does not feature in the glossaries from the official Death & Rebirth program booklets nor The End of Evangelion program book. -Anon

I originally removed it from the glossary as it was only a title, but then someone re-added it with a tiny meaningless description so I left it. I believe that it should be removed from the page. --cheese-cube 10:43, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
Agreed. It's now removed. -Anon
It's mentioned in episode 22 at least. Eva-00 passes the 6th Malebolgia on the way down to retrieve the lance. EASports 06:56, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
Also mentioned in episode 24, as Evas 01 and 02 descend to Terminal Dogma.

[edit] Prog Knife clear-up

The original words were:

It works by vibrating at an extremely high frequency which allows it to separate the bonds between the atoms that make up an object. Therefore it can cut with ease through any substance, save those that are extremely dense.

My edit was:

It works by vibrating particles at an extremely high frequency, which allows it to slice an object at the "molecular level". It has barely any effect, however, on the AT-Fields of angels.

My reasons for adding "particles" into it was because that is exactly what is stated in the official glossaries for the movies. And although it is stated that it works at the "molecular level", it is still uncertain whether this means able to break the intramolecular bonds between atoms in a molecule, which is what the original can suggest, or break the intermolecular bonds between molecules in an object, but not the intramolecular bonds. (It would help if someone can tell me what "at the molecular level" specifically means. My english grammar is not foolproof.) From the footage we are given, I don't think we can see any chemical reactions occuring on the sliced surface, so who knows? The statement of the prog knife having little effect on the AT-Fields is shown in the series, for example, by Shinji's knife accidentally hitting Kaworu's field, and not penetrating it. The AT-Fields can only be penetrated by the lance or if it is weakened/neautralised with the Evangelion's anti-AT-Field. I removed "it can cut with ease through any substance, save those that are extremely dense" because I don't see where this information comes from. If good evidence can be brought forth, it may be put back in.

If these reasons are valid and correct, I would like the edit unreverted with your permission, Rowan_Moore. -Anon

Your reasoning is pretty solid. You may go ahead and make the edit. --cheese-cube 09:15, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
Thank you. It has been unreverted. -Anon

It makes more sense and it sounds better. Nice job.

Wait a minute - Eva 01 or 02 (can't remember which one) uses a prog knife to cut through Sahaquiel's AT field. EASports 06:55, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes, they actually cut throught it, but remember the Field was weakenned due to the contact with the three Eva's Fields. It is stated that the knife can cut throught a Field under this cirunstances, so the statement is still correct. ~Nih 03:43, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
Maybe one could assume that the Prog Knife acts as a focus for the anti-AT field capability of EVAs as it is used in that way, i.e. piercing through the AT-field; in most animes weapons that have a 'strong bond' with its wearer are more powerful then generic weapons (simplified swords are always more powerful then bullets since the sword is directly powered by the wearers soul/mental strength)

[edit] LCL

I think we need confirmation on whether LCL stands for "Link Connection Liquid" or not. The article says Gainax stated that the "Link Connection Liquid" name was false, but a translation of the Red Cross Book [1] which was created by Gainax says otherwise. Now, either the person that made the claim that Gainax said it wasn't true is wrong or this translation is wrong. Until we can clear this up I'm going to remove the first sentence. If anyone has any information on this subject please share it here. NotSuper 21:30, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

---

On another point regarding the LCL entry, I am changing the line which says "The LCL fluid may also be compared to the amniotic fluid in the mother's womb (even though amniotic fluid is not breathable)". While amniotic fluid may not be "breathable" in the strictest sense of supplying oxygen to the lungs which would respirate it, amniotic fluid is indeed respirated in and out of the lungs during fetal development. (forgot to add sig) Tenmiles 01:24, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

---

Maybe as an interesting sidenote a link to Perflubron could be given. It is reasonable to assume a conscious human would taste blood in such environment too.

QUESTION: If "Link Connection Liquid" or "Link Connect Liquid" is not an official name or translation (correct me if I'm wrong)....then from a legal, copyright status, could other shows use the term "Link Connection Liquid" without getting sued by Gainax? — The preceding unsigned comment was added by 130.64.137.195 (talk • contribs).

--

Doesn't LCL stand for Life Containing Liquid?

It's never specified in the series. Hellbus (talk) 05:24, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

I could have sworn I saw it somewhere, perhaps the video game for the N64... I have always thought of LCL as Life Containing Liquid. I dunno, it made sense that all life reverted to Life Containing Liquid in the end of evangelion when all beings lose their AT fields, and when shinji disappeared in his entry plug I assumed that he became LCL until Misato called him back. Because really isn't LCL the blood of the EVAs and of the Angels? You know, Shinji and Asuka's mothers lose their AT fields and become the LCL of the EVAs. Does anyone have an idea of where I might have gotten the idea of Life Containing Liquid from? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.222.213.216 (talk) 11:46, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] AT Field

Can anyone please give me an example of where an "Absolute Terror Field" would be used in the context of real-life psychology, let alone outside of the context of Evangelion? The Trashman 00:00, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

This is all I was able to find on "absolute terror field" and "psychiatry." Ten hits. Ten. The tenth one isn't even distinct enough for Google to deem it important enough to be shown. I will now modify the text accordingly.--Rmky87 06:45, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
This strongly depends how literal one takes the concept of AT-field since there is no proof of any kind of soul energy/psychic force materializing in the physical world.

"the N² Mine used against the seventh Angel, Israfel," - It could be argued that Israfel may have not had it's AT Field up. It appears they can put them up/down just like an Eva. For example, Unit 01 didn't have a problem getting near Sachiel right after it went berserk. After that point Sachiel most likely put up it's AT Field for protection. There is no real proof a N² Mine can get through an AT Field. — The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.92.235.178 (talk • contribs) .

[edit] Nagano?

Can we find a source about Tokyo-2 being where the city of Nagano is today? A source for Tokyo-3/Hakone might be nice, too, but that's a little more obvious, from maps and such. --King of All the Franks 08:09, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] N² mine strength

It sure doesn't appear to be nearly as strong as even one megaton. How close were Shinji and Misato to the nuke during the first drop in the anime? I can't imagine it being more than 50 kilotons. Obsidian-fox 20:54, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

The strength of the mines can be debated, but we know that a single mine can cause some surface damage to an Angel, and 992 can disrupt a Sea of Dirac. Without looking at the episode in question, I would estimate that Capt. Katsuragi and the Third Child were "close enough". I suppose it depends somewhat on the geography of the area. Sachiel doesn't seem to be very close to the city proper when the mine is used. --King of All the Franks 07:53, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
For what it's worth, an N2 mine was also used against Israfel; it apparently burned off about 28% of the Angel's surface. --King of All the Franks 09:18, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
If Capt. Katsuragi and Shinji were within a range where they could see a clear profile for the angel (as I believe they were), then the explosive cannot be nearing a megaton. Sachiel was clearly under 40 meters in height. If it took a 5-degree arc on their vision, then the angel would be under 500 meters away; for a 2-degree arc, the range is at most a kilometer. A 20-kiloton bomb would be clearly felt at kilometer, but wouldn't be deadly. However, for a 1-megaton bomb, one kilometer would still be near the center of the destructive radius. ([2]),
As another measure, consider that the positron cannon drew 180 GW (IIRC), used to fire tiny anti-matter particles through the AT-field. (180 GW, by the way, is the equivalent of circa 180 nuclear power plants as constructed in 2005... it's nothing to scoff at.) At best, the beam itself focused few terajoules of energy (at 2 Terajoules every 11 seconds) at a relatively low power output on a relatively small area of the target. Now, a 20-kiloton bomb is 80 Terajoules of energy in a fraction of a second... any given 12-degree cone focused at close range over the target would blast a total 1/900th that energy, or 90 Gigajoules... far more than a few thousand blows from a 40m superhuman mecha, but not enough to destroy the target. Relatively, a 1-megaton bomb would focus 50x as much energy, or 4.5 Terajoules of energy into that 12-degree cone -- an amount surpassing the positron cannon later utilized in taking out an angel with a 'remarkably' strong AT field (Ramiel, whose AT-field was visible to the naked eye).
For these reasons, I find it extremely difficult to accept that the N2 mine is equivalent to a hydrogen-bomb. It's definitely equivalent to the early fission bombs (15 kilotons = Hiroshima, 20 kilotons = Nagasaki), but saying it is well over 100 kilotons, much less 1-megaton, doesn't seem plausible. It is hard to accept that the bomb is even 50 kilotons in the anime. -- Obsidian-fox 12:43, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
Oh... and I suggest we avoid focusing on the AT-field strength and the angel's resilience to damage as a means to measure nuclear weapon strength, even in the article. The comment about how the damage the angel suffers somehow "suggests" the amount power of the bomb isn't scientific. (As a side-note, however, one can run a super-human mechanoid creature at 40m tall that can do almost everything those Evangelions can do (minus regeneration and other mystic weirdness) with about 150 MW energy... or about 3/4 the energy of an aircraft carrier). --Obsidian-fox 13:03, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
I agree with your conclusion, and your math sounds alright, but we shouldn't describe the mines' strength with original research. I highly doubt that Gainax would ever take the time to work out just how powerful an N2 mine really is, so I think we should just discuss their power in the context of their effects in the NGE universe. --King of All the Franks 08:29, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
I agree that the Wikipedia isn't a place for orignal research (though the discussion pages aren't a bad place for it). However, noting dissonance between what might have been -said- canonically (strong as a hydrogen bomb, though I'm not sure where that was said) and what is actually -shown- canonically (no stronger than a fission bomb) is quite reasonable. In truth, what is shown and what is said have equal standing as part of canon; dismissing one in favor of the other is always an error. Any dissonance is, itself, something that can be useful to note.
What's the source for the 1-megaton number? Or the "strong as an H-bomb" comment? I think I'd like to go confirm those. Obsidian-fox 09:00, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
I don't know, but I will remove it from the article until it can be verified (or if it can). --King of All the Franks 09:35, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] N² Power

Image:Sachiel_Rangefinder.png

Okay, I just checked out the first episode again. My earlier estimate for Sachiel is consistent with all shown evidence. Sachiel is about 40 meters tall, maybe 12 meter shoulder width - these are based on size comparison to weapons, footprints, buildings, and vehicles. Immediately prior to dropping the N2 mine, Sachiel is seen through Misato's range-finder military binoculars. Shoulder width was 0.5 degrees, and height (though not entirely seen) was estimated at about 1.5 degrees. (In range finders, those big ticks are degrees.) That gives an estimated range of circa 12m/sin(0.5) or 40m/sin(1.5) Thus, Sachiel is 1400-1500 meters away at the time of viewing and explosion. The explosion was also shielded by the presence of the massive mountain and the fact that it was a ground-burst - both of which would shield Misato and Shinji to a degree.

Even for a shielded 20 kiloton blast (Nagasaki size) you'd expect them to be tossed around, ears popping, flying debris would be killer, etc. Fortunately, they'd be protected from the -flash- damage of the thermal radiation by the mountain itself, and they'd possibly survive (but there'd be a huge risk they'd die.) The bomb could be weaker (as few as 15 kilotons wouldn't be inconceivable) or a bit stronger (though 30 kilotons would be pushing plausibility). I can, with complete confidence, assert that the bombs are in the 10-50 kiloton range. It is impossible that these weapons are comparable to hydrogen bombs. --Obsidian-fox 08:54, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Xylix - your comments have been moved to my talk page. Your ultimate conclusion is the same as my own, but it is obfuscated by the querelous tone in which you offer your argument. (For those of you just reading, Xylix's argument amounts to: "Even if Sachiel was a lot bigger, and therefore a lot further, he'd still be too close for them to be equal to a 1-megaton H-bomb due to the incredible power of such weapons." However, he presents this in a manner that distracts severely from his own main point and my own, especially since there isn't any reason to believe Sachiel is 'a lot bigger'; evidence supports only the 'roughly 40 meter' estimate.) --Obsidian-fox 19:16, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
I know it's not very scientific of my part, and I'm not bringing in any useful data, but isn't it possible that Sachiel's AT-Shield have considerably lowered the bomb's effect? I mean, it is said that it was a straight-hit, so it's possible that the Shield could've 'softened' the explosion itself along with the radiation itself. Summed to the mountain's 'shelter', we can accept that Shinji and Misato suffered lowered bomb effects from their position. Just my theory. ~Nih 03:01, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
That really depends on location of detonation. For it to have any effect on the power Shinji and Misato experienced then Sachiel would have to directly shield them from it. They'd need to be in Sachiel's shadow per say. Even then, a blast wave doesn't flow in a direct straight line. It adjusts and flows around obstacles (just like a flow of water). As such, any shadow would be mostly reduced to nothing anyway before the blast wave reached Shinji and Misato. --Xylix 16:50, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
They were highly protected from the radiation by the mountain. A 20-kiloton bomb's radiation would have given 3rd degree and worse burns to all exposed parts of the body, and would have damaged both them and the car some more with the blast wave... and likely ignited the car cushions. However, all it takes is a large, hard body (like a mountain) to block all the thermal radiation. Plus the mountain directs a lot of blast energy to the sky. That is, the 10-30 kiloton estimate is ALREADY including the fact that much damage was shielded; otherwise the estimate would need to be much, much lower. The 30 kilton is truly an upper limit, at the upper edge of plausibility. (Don't forget: Nagasaki and Hiroshima bombs were in the 10-20 kilton range... more than sufficient to tear apart much of a city. It's easy to forget this when faced with modern bombs measuring in Megatons, which is disgustingly overpowered.) --Obsidian-fox 17:02, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] N² Mines as "shaped" explosions

There has been presented the following lines:

As they are described as the most powerful conventional weapon in existence, it is possible that they are actually considerably more powerful, but focus the blast much more efficiently than current nuclear weapons (which direct much of their explosive power away from the target, ultimately wasting it) which would explain how one could be used within the GeoFront but not destroy NERV HQ.
  1. N² mines are shown in the Anime, and a depicted in a clearly bomb like configuration. All evidence supports that the bomb was dropped, burying the weapon would have required significant and likely implausbile ability to predict the movements of the Angel in question. This is in direct contradiction to a ground focused blast.
  2. Futher, no evidence supports a "non-spherical" detenation. Visa-versa the visual pictures of the detanation of an N² mine, and Aerial N² mines are clearly sphericle. I can see no basis for a non-spherical detonation theory. Rember this is an encyclopedia, it need to be more than "possible: to be entertained, especially to be presented as fact.
  3. It is unsubstantiated that there is any claim N² mines are more powerful than nukes. Even if N² mines are the most powerful conventional weapon in NGE, nukes are not conventional weapons and thus this would invoke no comparison to these weapons.

I have yet to see any worth argumented presented on this case. Until such time as there is (as was presented for the scale of the power of the N² mine), I will continue to remove it from the article. The Wikipedia is not a place for unfounded speculation. If there is an argument for this case, then present it. It will be maintained here afterwards to answer future questions.

As a final note, I am still calling into question the line: They are the most powerful "conventional" weapon ever made as applying to N² mines. I do not recall this statement, however I will not jerk it until I feel so inclined to check my memory (it could be faulty). If someone else can verify it, I'd thank you for the effort (and please list the epsiode and approximate time in the episode if you can). --Xylix 01:52, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

While it is not officially stated in the series or the movies I still believe that the N² mine/bomb is the most powerful conventional weapon. Due to what was seen at the Second Impact NERV knows that the Angels are extremely powerful. Therefore it is only common sense to use the most powerful offensive technologies against them. To use anything less would be pointless (As they discovered when attacking the third Angel Sachiel). Of course this raises the question that if they want to use the most powerful weapons they have then why not use unconventional nuclear weapons which are far superior to conventional weapons (The most powerful conventional "bomb" that exists now is the Massive Ordnance Air Blast bomb which is only one thousandth the power of the bomb used against Hiroshima (The MOAB blast is only 11 tons TNT equivalent whereas the Hiroshima blast was 13,000 tons). The reason NERV and the JSSDF do not use nuclear weapons is mainly because of the dangers of fallout and because of the stigma that surrounds nuclear weapons. So the JSSDF and NERV restrict themselves to using the most powerful conventional weapons at their disposal, which is the N² mine/bomb. I agree with the other points you have made and I will expand on them later as I am currently busy. Also I have a theory on the actual mechanics of the N² mine/bomb but I must perform more research before I present it. --cheese-cube 04:54, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
I agree with your reasoning for nukes. It was clear the JSDF had no desire to use them. In fact, it was clear the JSDF had no desire to use N² mines, as all evidence supports 3 to 5 of those used in series would have obliterated an angel. Feel free to present any information or ideas on N² mines. I have no qualms against well thought out and supported ideas being placed in the article (there are of course, those that don't agree with me), I just want to see the support first. ;) --Xylix 17:28, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for the feedback. With regards to my theory I believe that N² bombs/mines are not conventional weapons and are in fact "safe" nuclear weapons (Safe meaning that there is no radioactive contamination). As I said above the most powerful conventional weapon is the MOAB and that doesn't even come close to a small nuclear weapon, so I thought that the N² bombs/mines must be nuclear. Nuclear bombs that have reduced radioactivity and fallout can and have been made, although research into clean nuclear weapons is no longer carried out due to non-proliferation treaties.
The design of N² bombs/mines is probably a two stage non boosted thermonuclear weapon (See Nuclear weapon design). When a fission reaction occurs neutrons, γ rays and α/β particles are released, the last two being which are extremely dangerous (See Fission reaction). Additionally due to the inefficiency of most fission reactions a large amount of radioactive fuel is left over which is dispersed during the blast. These radioactive elements are collectively called fission product. In a fusion reaction the only products are protons or neutrons and a few fast moving photons. So therefore a fusion reaction is much cleaner. For maximum yield most thermonuclear weapons work in three stages wherein a fission reaction takes place which creates the right environment to trigger a fusion reaction which releases neutrons that are then used to trigger another fission reaction (Fission-Fusion-Fission). However if one was to drop the third stage (Fission-Fusion) then the fission product produced by the first stage is neutralised by the second stage and, due to the elimination of the third stage, no fission product is emitted. An additional reduction in fission products can attained by using an inert, non-radioactive material as tamping.
The most powerful nuclear weapon ever tested was the Tsar Bomba which had a yield of about 100 megatons. This of course was a three stage fully boosted thermonuclear bomb but it had extremely large levels of fallout. To this end the Russians removed the third stage and used non-radioactive tamping which halved the yield but cut the fallout by 97% making one of the cleanest bombs in history. Fallout can be reduced if a much smaller bomb is used, such as something in the sub 50 kiloton range.
So to conclude I believe that N² bombs/mines are in fact optimised clean thermonuclear weapons that produce an extremely small amount of fallout. --cheese-cube 03:52, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
Well, I'm forced to bring up the fact that N2 means Non Nuclear. So a modified nuclear weapon is questionable. However, I'd agree with the premise that chemical explosives would probably be incapable of producing a blast of that size (for a bomb the size seen). Unfortunately, given NGE's willingless to invoke oddities like the AT field, S2 engine, and Lance of Longinus, I don't think we can fairly conclude the exact mechanism of the N2 mine without additional sources.
As for radiation: γ and neutron radiation are universally the worst. Alpha and Beta particles are easily sheilded against, and, unless at very high energies, do little damage beyond the skin (E.g. Polunium 210, a strong alpha emiter, is almost completely harmless unless ingested; Old TVs produced beta radiation, which just an electron). Neutron radiation is by far the nastiest radiation of all, because neutrons not only cause direct damage, they convert normally stable elements into radioactive isotopes. In a ground burst senario neutron radiation is responsible for the large increase in observed fallout. Further, like gamma radiation, neutrons are extremely penetrating as they are electronmagnetically neutral. In any case, even in a Fission-Fusion device, enormous amounts of neutron of radation is produced. Fusion produces large amounts of both gamma and neutron radiation, fission produces even more neutron radiation, plus large amounts of radiative "daughter" elements. Fortunately, the high neutron count would help burn off some of the radioactive "daughters" from the initial fusion device...unfortunately the neutron radiation would covert the bomb's shell (many, many times more massive) and surrounding air/dust/water into radioactive contamination. Plus, burning off the radioactive "daughters" results in... guess what? more radiation.
To put it simply, there is no such thing as a non-radioactive nuke. While fallout can be reduced, it will not be elminated by any currently known mechanism. As a side, the Tsar Bomba had a yeild of 50 Mt when tested, and it was 97% of the energy resulting from fusion, not 97% elimination of fallout. Its relatively high Fusion-to-Fission energy ratio would result in lower than usual fallout for a bomb that size, but I'd expect it to produce at least as much radiation and fallout as the typical 5 to 30 Mt hydrogen bomb... (which also have high fusion-to-fission ratios), or enough fallout to kill everyone in a few hundered kilometers.
To sum it up, a two stage Fission-fusion device is unlikely to result in the desired saftey level to beconsidered "non-radioactive". --Xylix 02:53, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
The meaning of N² as being "non-nuclear" is stated in the series so it is therefore canon so my two stage non boosted thermonuclear weapon theory is really just some idle pondering. I believe that it is possible to produce a "safe" nuclear weapon and I plan to write a thesis on it as a personal project. With regards to your response I have a little nitpick. You say that the Tsar Bomba has 97% of the energy resulting from fusion, not 97% reduced fallout. This is stated in the Tsar Bomba article but an external source which is linked to from the Tsar Bomba article (Tsar Bomba at Carey Sublette's NuclearWeaponArchive.org) says the following:

This three stage weapon was actually a 100 megaton bomb design, but the uranium fusion stage tamper of the tertiary (and possibly the secondary) stage(s) was replaced by one(s) made of lead. This reduced the yield by 50% by eliminating the fast fissioning of the uranium tamper by the fusion neutrons, and eliminated 97% of the fallout (1.5 megatons of fission, instead of 51.5), yet still proved the full yield design.

I am unsure whether the Wikipedia article on Tsar Bomba is correct or whether this source is correct. Anyway this is getting pretty off topic so I think I'll just leave it. --cheese-cube 17:52, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] N2 Anti-Air Missiles

In Episode 12, there was a mention of "N² Anti-Air Missiles," then a shot of several dozen fireballs against Sahaqiel. Are these the same as the N² explosives were so familiar with? The Gwai Lo 01:04, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
No, they are not. Bombs go down, missiles go up.
They might, however, use the same essential explosive component, likely in smaller quantities if you can actually SEE a dozen fireballs and still see Sahaqiel. (Admittedly, Sahaqiel is a lot larger than Sachiel.)
For a moment there I was confusing Sahaqiel and Sachiel. (Same sounds...). I'll check out the episode in question and make additional comments. --Obsidian-fox 19:01, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Image:N2_Aerial_Mines.png

Okay, as I expected, these things are apparently a lot weaker than the N2 bomb. (The reason UP vs. DOWN is important is the cost of sending a payload UP is very high, and, hence, the payload is usually smaller.) An N2 weapon the size dropped on Sachiel would have, at the very least, created a fireball capable of enveloping much of Sahaqiel. (If Misato and Shinji could feel it as they did from 1.5 km, it had to be at least 10 kilotons.) For a nuclear weapon there wouldn't be a real "fireball" in space... just a powerful flash. Of course, these are non-nuclear...
The mines seem to have triggered/been destroyed far before they reached him, and since he was also able to destroy the sattelite, he might have been able to destroy those mines before they reached him.
But, yes, I'll agree we can count these warheads as N2 mines. I would prefer you use the "at least" approach rather than the "as many as" approach, though. Count the explosions in that picture. --Obsidian-fox 22:50, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
The implication is clearly that "N2 Aerial Mines" are the same weapon as an "N2 bomb" (or mine, whatever) just strapped onto a missile. --Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici 14:31, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] S² Engine

In the S² engine section and (originally) in the NERV-02 section, it uses the word "wanished." I thought this was just a typo and was supposed to be the word "vanished" when I saw it the first time, but it seems weird that someone would make the same typo twice, especially since the two letters aren't close to each other on the keyboard. So did I miss something in the show and is it really supposed to be "wanished"? Mred64 18:32, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Well, I could check the episode, but, honestly, "wanished" isn't an English word, and it should not be sitting around on en.wikipedia.org. It might be a bit of Engrish. I dunno. Anyone remember the episode number? --Obsidian-fox 23:12, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, that's what I thought and I just changed the w to v in both cases. It just seemed weird that someone would make that typo twice, since w and v are not close to each other on the keyboard. Mred64 23:30, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Engine vs. Organ

The S² engine section states that "the terms "S² Organ" and "S² Engine" are interchangeable because Japanese uses the same word for both concepts". Having originally only watched the English dub of NGE I always believed that an S² Engine was synthetic and the S² Organ was non-synthetic or organic. To me this seems logical but the explanation already in the article is just as plausible. My understanding of Japanese is limited to being able to introduce myself and write my name (ロワン) so can someone with a more sound understanding cite a reference for the whole "S² Organ" and "S² Engine" interchangeability idea. --cheese-cube 18:16, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Anti-AT fields

Template:Spoiler the whole point of the END OF EVANGELION was that gendo failed to cause the third impact on his own terms (by inserting adam into lilith, so that he could see Yui) - this is seen when Rei cuts him off half-way through the insertion of adam.

instead, seele started the third impact by using the s2 engines in Eva-01 and the production model Evas. if you watch the movie, they actually mention that the anti-AT field is being generated by the Evas.

then rei returns to lilith and helps shinji to define reality and make his decision about whether he wants humanity to be together or separate. --Cwiddofer 17:32, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Chamber of Guf?

I can't remember anything about this. What that the name of the place where they kept all the spare Reis? -HKMARKS 19:00, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

The ZX fansubbed release notes it as 'The Room of Gauf', Chamber of Guf could be a correct translation as well. crashmatrix 06:59, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
This is possibly in relation to 'Well of Souls' — The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.82.164.47 (talk • contribs) .
The Platinum Edition booklets refer to it as 'Chamber of Gaf' and it indeed is related to the 'Well of Souls'. Ritsuko says "The Chamber of Gaf was empty" (at least in the subtitled version); in Judean legends, the emptying of the Chamber of Gaf is a sign of the end of times. At least that's what the aforementioned booklet says. 84.250.41.125 19:23, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] A10 clips

Considering how important the A10 nerve clips are to controlling the Evas, they should probably be included in this list. Willbyr (talk | contribs) 02:22, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't think enough is known about the A10 nerve connection to actually add a substantial amount of information, just noting it's important because it is shown to be a bottleneck in the series doesn't justify adding it. crashmatrix 06:50, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
If you have a good source for information on them, I say by all means add them. I didn't even know what they were called, I thought they were just there to make the girls look like cats. -HKMARKS 03:55, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm going to add something in simply for the sake of having something there, we'll tweak it as we go.--Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici 05:28, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Interface headset

Yesterday I found something rather interesting...I was cruising through the new setup of EvaCommentary.org, which is based on Wikipedia, and found this: Interface Headset. This is the first time that I've seen this before, but apparently this description is in the script notes in the Renewal of Evangelion release. I'm not going to propose that the current "A10 nerve clip" entry be changed right now, but this definitely needs to be kept around for later inclusion. Willbyr (talk | contribs) 00:01, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Plug suits

The equipment list could probably use an entry about the plug suits. Willbyr (talk | contribs) 21:21, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] S2 Engine

Is the article about the S² Engine going to be expanded anytime soon? Willbyr (talk | contribs) 06:05, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't think there's much that can be added to it. That information should be put into the glossary and S2 engine should redirect to it, I think. EASports 00:10, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

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[edit] Dummy plugs

In there entry is says they might contain soulless copies Rei and Kaworu, how is that possible? In The End of Eva, Asuka rips of a number of the MP heads. I understand how the MPs them selves might have survived, but wouldn’t even a soulless clone have been killed, or at lest incapacitated by such damage. Or I’m I missing something?

The dummy plugs, at least to my understanding, go into the upper torso of the MP Evas in the same fashion as the entry plugs go into the manned Evas. Thus, damage to their heads wouldn't actually damage the plugs. Willbyr (talk | contribs) 05:07, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
You’re kidding, right? You do know that the piloted is connected to the EVA’ nerve endings so they experience the pain of combat. You HAVE watched more than the 1st episode, right? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.111.139.65 (talk • contribs)
Ah, I see, I misunderstood the first post. Since we're operating on pure speculation, here's what I think. If the dummy plugs in the MP Evas work on the same principle as the DPs for the regular Evas, then the Kaworu clones used in them are mindless and soulless, just like the Rei clones. In this case, it might be possible that the clones (if the entire clone is contained in the plug and not just, say, the brain and/or spinal cord and other nerves) don't have the capacity to feel pain in the same way that a human pilot would. Thus, the severe damage inflicted on the MP Evas might not incapacitate the clone or clone parts in the plugs. Also, the S² Engines used by the MP Evas might tie into this function also. Until Anno and/or Gainax give us more information, this topic is anyone's guess...maybe the Rebuild might address this issue if the MP Evas make it into the new story. Don't forget to sign your posts. Willbyr (talk | contribs) 03:36, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
Alright thanks, although id like to point out that if it DID have something to do with the S2 engines thane it would apply to Unit 01 as well, otherwise I get what your saying.The Twilight Goddess 04:39, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
In regards to Unit 01, as I recall its S² Engine doesn't come into play until EoE, and then it is not subjected to the kind of trauma that the MP Evas suffered in the battle with Unit 02. Willbyr (talk | contribs) 05:07, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but we never actually noticed that there's a clone of a person inside the dummy plugs? If I recall correctly, Ritsuko noted that they where merely computerinterfaces controlled from afar by one of the MAGI (which in turn simulates some user (Rei / Kaworu) by use of a template). Therefor, any mental damage can probably be ignored, and only when the plug was physically damaged it would become a problem.Coen Leermakers 09:41, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
Well, Ritsuko was lying when she said that, I think. --Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici 16:32, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Trident

Can some one please ether expand this or get rid of it, all it says now is “The Tridents are similar to the EVA Units, us 100mm chin-mounted cannons and aren’t Cannon”. If its worth mentioning its worth expanding, and if its not worth expanding its not worth mentioning.The Twilight Goddess 00:46, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Short description does not equal irrelevance. Hellbus 03:22, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Renewal confusion

I'm a bit confused by the following bit: "Also, the Platinum Edition does not include Director's Cut episodes 25'/26' and has significantly degraded video and sound quality when compared directly with the Renewal set." There are director's cuts of episodes 25 and 26? I assume this is referring to End of Evangelion, not the actual TV episodes? Also, considering how good the Platinum Editions look, I honestly doubt the video and audio quality can be THAT much better in the renewal box set. 84.250.41.125 19:20, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Slightly relatedly, an explanation of what "25'/26'" means would be nice, too. I know, but others reading this may not. The first time I saw that usage, I was confused as to why two episodes were named "Twenty-five feet" and "twenty-six feet". If the explanation exists on another page (I don't have the awakeitude to look myself right now) a link would be nice... (oops, forgot to sign...or, more precisely, the automatic button isn't working...) --StarChaser Tyger 11:31, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
I don't know what is being referred to by the "director's cuts" of 25' and 26', either...as far as I know, Air and My Purest Heart For You have not been given any kind of extra materials. That section (and, really, anything in other articles regarding the Renewal box set) needs to be rewritten. Willbyr (talk | contribs) 12:19, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
Am I the only one who didn't find the 25'/26' thing confusing? It's just some mathematical notation, guys. It gets used all the time there and in programming - see Prime (symbol). --Gwern (contribs) 20:03 17 September 2007 (GMT)
I knew what it meant...hell, anyone who's got any familarity with Evangelion should know what that's referring to. What I'm confused about is the referrals to "director's cut" versions of them. Willbyr (talk | contribs) 20:32, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
"The prime symbol is commonly used to represent feet, arcminutes and sometimes minutes of time." Hence my mention of 'twenty five feet'. None of the things mentioned on the Prime (Symbol) page really apply to the second versions of the episodes.
The directors cut are the ' versions; the original ending (everybody standing around Shinji playing his cello and applauding while the audience goes Whiskey Tango Foxtrot) was either forced upon the director by budget or the company, and he wasn't happy with it. (If I remember correctly; I may not.) In any case, that one person understands something does not mean that everyone will; the only reason I knew it was that the first of the series I'd seen was Death and Rebirth. I'd thought it was an OVA, when it turned out to be an epilepsy inducing series of quick 'sketches' of the series, then the replacement episodes. Seeing 25 and 25' without explanation may confuse some people, and the purpose of Wikipedia is to UNconfuse, after all. I would write it, but am not sure enough of what the details are to take it on myself, so I asked that someone who was do it.--StarChaser Tyger 08:06, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
Um...what exactly are you referring to by the cello reference? Is that in Death and Rebirth? Willbyr (talk | contribs) 12:28, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
No, the original, pre prime, pre death and rebirth. It ends with Shinji playing his cello on a stage, and when he stops, all the other characters standing around him applaud, as I said. It's supposed to indicate something very deep, but it ends up being just deeply confusing, at least to me, and anyone else I've talked to about it. 25' and 26' were a more movie-like ending, if not necessarily a better one. --StarChaser Tyger 08:01, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
This confirms that I have no idea what you're talking about. Shinji wasn't playing his cello in the final scene from episode 26 (here); the only time the cello appears in the episode is at the start of the "alternate reality" sequence, and even then, it's on the floor. Willbyr (talk | contribs) 04:00, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] About the U.N. Pacific Fleet

How can we be sure that the Over the Rainbow is really the CVN-75 USS Harry S. Truman? As I know it could be any of the other Nimitz class aircraft carrier, well, except the CVN-76 and CVN-77 who were not made before the Second Impact. Sure they could have chose the last made Nimitz class aircraft carrier made before the Second Impact but we don't know for sure that they have done this. As I know the U.S. Navy do not use battleships anymore and the Pacific Fleet do use Iowa class battleships. So what is the explanation about using the CVN-75 and not another? If anybody have a response to this please thank you to respond.Freedom Fighter 1988 19:22, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

The same onscreen graphic that identifies the two Iowas as Illinois and Kentucky identifies one ship this way:
UN CVN-075
MPACN
Over The Rainbow
Hellbus 21:36, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
Actually, CVN-76 and was made before 2I, but launched after. As for CVN-77, it was ordered in 2001, keel laid in '03, christened in late '06. Still under construction, it should be commissioned mid-'08. MISSINGNO. was here. 18:44, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Jet Alone Sabotage

I'm pretty sure it was Kaji and Gendo that sabotaged Jet Alone so that funding would continue for the Eva project towards the ends of Instrumentality, not Ritsuko as the article states. Can someone double-check that and correct it? TruPhan 19:20, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

No. Kaji wasn't even in Japan at that time, while Ritsuko actually met in Gendo's office afterwards. --Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici 23:07, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] UN: One World Government?

The article describes the UN as "the world government which funds NERV" in the first sentence. Are we certain that in Eva's universe the United Nations is actually a world government and not simply an important and extremely influential organization comprised of nearly all of the world's states (as is the case in the real world)? I'm just wondering what led us to believe that the UN is now a world government. Also; was the fact that "all countries in the world have joined the UN" explicitly stated? Otherwise, every country with any real sway politically or militarily is already a member in real life. Maybe I'm just being nitpicky, but it seems sloppily written. 70.242.130.193 07:54, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Assuming that the map of the world remains stable for the next 8 years (highly unlikely), with a United Ireland, all countries except Vatican City, Palestine (UN observers), Western Sahara (disputed between Morocco and the Polisario Front), and T'aiwan (recognized as a province of the PRC would be in the United Nations, as it stands now. MISSINGNO. was here. 18:51, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cores

The article could stand to have an entry about the cores. Agree/disagree? Willbyr (talk | contribs) 07:15, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Agreed crashmatrix (talk | contribs) 11:25, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
Yes, but I was hesitant to make one as I'm not sure how to describe them (I THINK S2 Engines are inside of Angel cores but I'm not sure).--Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici 00:19, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
I think that's one of those things that is assumed to be true by the general Eva fandom but has never been revealed. Maybe Rebuild will touch on this. Willbyr (talk | contribs) 04:57, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Regarding last edit to the section - I know that part of Shamshel's core was removed for study, but I can't remember - was its final fate ever revealed in the series? Willbyr (talk | contribs) 12:18, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Heavily implied it was used in the research into artificial S2 Engines culminating in Eva 04's accident. I think though that Eva 04's S2 Engine/Core wasn't the same as Shamshel's but an artificial one based on reverse-engineering it. --Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici 14:26, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
That's what I was thinking as well. Willbyr (talk | contribs) 15:59, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Consensus on the PS2 Game

Information in this article which sources from the PS2 game needs to be handled better. While it is debateable wheatear it is canon or not, the fact remains that the information that comes from it does not come from the series, so must be explicitly stated.

For example, The first impact segment which goes like this:

The First Impact (never depicted) is the meteor impact that occurred around 4 billion years ago which caused the Moon to split from the Earth, according to the giant impact theory, shown in a document in the seventh episode of the series. It is confirmed in the PS2 game Neon Genesis Evangelion 2 that the "meteor" in question was in fact the Black Moon, carrying Lilith. When the Black Moon collided with Earth, it bounced and became the Moon, satellite of the Earth, while in the crash, a small part of it, containing Lilith, detached itself and was buried in the Earth, becoming the actual Black Moon, known as the GeoFront millions of years later.

Should become like this:

The First Impact while never depicted in the series, is the meteor impact that occurred around 4 billion years ago which caused the Moon to split from the Earth, according to the giant impact theory, shown in a document in the seventh episode of the series. Little to no detail is given on this event throughout the entire series.
In the spin off Playstation 2 Video Game Neon Genesis Evangelion 2, it is confirmed that the "meteor" in question was in fact the Black Moon, carrying Lilith. When the Black Moon collided with Earth, it bounced and became the Moon, satellite of the Earth, while in the crash, a small part of it, containing Lilith, detached itself and was buried in the Earth, becoming the actual Black Moon, known as the GeoFront millions of years later.

See the better style difference here? In this version it is less vague, specifically telling the reader, “This is information from the series, and this is information from the video game”. It is easier to read and displays more information on the sources. It should be like this with all forms of information that come form varying sources. --Little Jimmy 12:53, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Germanic Origins

The SEELE section says, "The series also does not clarify the reason why all of these organizations have Germanic names."

I'm just throwing this out there, but in the English dub, the members of SEELE seem to be speaking with Central/Eastern European accents. Is this just an assumption on my part, and/or did ADV do this intentionally? --75.89.116.76 (talk) 08:51, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't think that was in the original. IIRC, the members of SEELE's core were supposed to be much more internationalized than that - German, American, etc. --Gwern (contribs) 15:08 25 November 2007 (GMT)
In episode 8 you can identify Japanese, American and Russian ships, and when SEELE discusses that attack in episode 14, one of them mentions "most of the lost ships were from your country. You can handle it," or something to that effect. Makes me think that maybe those three countries are represented on the SEELE committee, if not more. Hellbus (talk) 19:43, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Just to throw it out there in the back the manga adaptation of Evangellion (last pages/ glossary I believe the 5th book in the series) it was said all the germanic names (NERV , SEELE and GIHREN) maybe to SEELE's Leader (Keel Lorenz) being german and actually backing / creating GIHREN (then NERV) and SEELE as if I am correct as refered in Death & Rebirth (or the episode Post Zeruel battle I don't remember) GIHREN and SEELE were formed around the same time. even Gendo's right hand man refered indirectly to Keel (I believe at SEELE 01) 69.86.55.242 (talk) 00:21, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Marduk

The Marduk Institute entry states "The name for the institute is derived from the Babylonian god to whom children were sacrificed."

If I remember my religious study correctly, Marduk slays the goddess Tiamat, who represents chaos.

The Babylonian myths say Tiamat (some sources spell it "Tiamu") grew tired of the ordered affairs of the world and set forth monsters to bring the world back into chaos as it was in the beginning. She created terrible monsters to bring woe upon those that created this order. Marduk slays Tiamu and a new world is created.

"Nightly darkness obscuring and enveloping all nature in the primeval shroud; black mists and vapours of fantastic shape, reuniting at times the waters of heaven and earth; continued rains threatening to deluge the earth and again to convert the celestial and terrestrial waters into the one vast original ocean; the crashing thunder and the fierce tornado, too, were among the offspring and the abetters of Tiamtu in her bitter warfare against the established order...Finally, Marduk, the rising sun,[Marduk] is sent. A fearful storm ensues, a battle between Marduk and Tiamtu; but the god of the rising sun dispels the darkness, lifts the vapours in masses on high, subdues the tempest, reopens the space between heaven and earth. Marduk slays Tiamtu..." (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07310a.htm The New Catholic Encyclopedia -- Hexaemeron)

The sacrifices offered were the "standard" sacrifices of goats, sheep, etc. (Mesopotamian Protective Spirits: The Ritual Texts By Frans A. M. Wiggermann, pp 17)

In essence the Marduk story describes the creation of a "new" world and is claimed by some to be the inspiration for The Book of Genesis in the Christian Bible. There are some texts that have likened Lillith to Tiamat/Tiamu. This may also make some of the things in End of Evangelion make more sense (maybe?) such as the scene near the end where Lillith/Rei is chopped in half, so is Tiamat "cleaved in twain" just before the end.

Maybe the Marduk Institute is charged with finding a child to create a new world, rather than eating them?

Other references cite a similar story -

MARTIN KESSLER, Battle of the Gods: The God of Israel versus Marduk of Babylon: A Literary/Theological Interpretation of Jeremiah 50-51 (SSN 42; Assen: Van Gorcum, 2003). Fernblatt (talk) 06:24, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

This is the combination of two edits made by this user, which the same user then removed. I thought the information was interesting enough to keep around. Hellbus (talk) 10:51, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
Yes, it's interesting certainly - but there's no way that was what the Gainax writers had in mind! It's generally a good idea to assume that references in Eva are "shallow" unless someone like Anno mentions having read extensively in the topic. --Gwern (contribs) 20:44 9 April 2008 (GMT)