Talk:Mystery (pickup artist)

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[edit] Image:Satnight_mystery.jpg

Image:Satnight_mystery.jpg doesn't appear to be fair use. - brenneman{T}{L} 03:23, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Interesting, that ip address is from university of auckland. Anybody else going there? Mathmo 19:58, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
The picture is now gone, why? Is a pity, because it was a good picture of him. Maybe I'll be able to find another suitable one sometime, unless anybody else here has one lying about? Mathmo 14:40, 19 September 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Article title

"(venusian artist)" should go, and be replaced by something more appropriate. he's not a celebrity, not a TV personality exactly, but "venusian artist" is an invented term, and beside's he's definitely from earth. it should mainly be changed because it makes the article seem like a vanity entry (maybe it was at it's inception?). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.36.239.51 (talk) 02:29, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Expansion Ideas

So what else can we add about Mystery? Are we beyond stub stage yet? WoodenBuddha 19:27, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

  • Yep. i'm removing the stub notice. feel free to rv if you disagree. THE KING 16:57, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Neil strauss, in his famous book "the game" mentions Mystery's struggle with depression, and the time neil was forced to bring mystery to the mental health clinic when he threatened suicide. I was expecting to find something about it here in this article. Anyone know how it ended?

[edit] Personal Issues

This was added to Mystery Method under a heading of "Criticism." But it's not really criticism of his method, so I'm moving it here. Still, I don't think it should be the only quotation from the The Game on the page. --SecondSight 17:55, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

I would agree it shouldn't be the only quote - the book is on the whole upbeat about the character, and it would seem to be fairly deceptive to posit it that way. Strauss is technically a competitor of Erik and MM just as he is of RSD. If we're allowed to quote The Game on the MM page, we're definitely allowed to do it on the RSD page... Keepitneutral, let us know your thoughts, you've been a vocal critic of doing this in the past, and now your position seems to have changed? WoodenBuddha 18:06, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Does eric have a girlfriend? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.191.160.160 (talk) 02:37, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Further expansion

Some dates could be helpful here. How old is he? During what era did he spend 10 years observing behavior? -Phoenixrod 07:35, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Ten years is just an approximation, has been part of the community for slightly less while I imagine he has made a serious study of this for a little more than 10 years. Mathmo 13:04, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Off the top of my head he would be somewhere in his thirties. Think he was 26 when he first posted to usenet back in 1998. So that would make him 34 now? Mathmo

Is there a source we can use to get precise info for the article? -Phoenixrod 08:42, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
Yes, check out his original postings to usenet. Mentions his age there. Mathmo 13:01, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Expansion Ideas, his "projects"

He (& others) has often mentioned how he has "projects" (& some of them have been a little out of left field). Such as "project hollywood", "project DVD". "project book", etc... A good idea would be to make a complete as possible listing of these (although maybe only of the ones he has done), it gives a good quick and simple overview of some of the range of things he has done. Mathmo 13:08, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Minor updates=

Erik was not on Dr Phil. That was Savoy. The show has not yet aired. I also updated the website as per Mystery Method Corp, which uses www.themysterymethod.com. From their newsletter, it seems that mysterymethod.com was stolen or taken over.

Yup, know it hasn't aired yet but it has already been recorded. Sure mystery wasn't? Perhaps I should hold out on the reference to it until after it has been broadcast, whatever won't be too long until them. Don't recall any mention of what you said in their newsletter, neither do I understand what you are saying about it being "stolen"? Mathmo Talk 05:02, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm certain that it was not Mystery. It was Savoy and The Don. Mystery Method has announced that the domain mysterymethod.com is no longer their official domain - this can be confirmed by writing to them at (I imagine) info@mysterymethod.com or info@themysterymethod.com or something. They've been having attacks on the domain mysterymethod.com. Their phone number is 800 680 0821 / 323 836 0150.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Clockworkorange101 (talk • contribs)

I'm going to guess you are probably right about Dr Phil, I'll double check it some time. Bit odd though, normally Mystery is the public face of the company. Yes I do see now about the domain name... thanks for bringing it to our attention and changing it. I wouldn't ring those numbers, international charges are a bit steep for me... Mathmo Talk 12:20, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Superfluous info?

The mentioning of Penn & Teller and the fact that he is an atheist seem quite random and useless to me. I opt for deletion of this information. JurgenBM 18:49, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

I added that bit, so I'll explain my reasoning. It originally said "Mystery, despite working as a magician, does not have any interest in the supernatural aspects of humanity, and is a self-identified atheist." When I read this, I thought it was implying that it's unusual for a magician to be an atheist. That's why I gave Randi and Penn & Teller as examples of other atheist magicians to show that it's not uncommon at all. I was tempted to use Houdini, but I don't know if he could accurately be called an atheist or just a skeptic. --Icarus (Hi!) 22:10, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for the explanation, but that doesn't make the info more sequential and significant... JurgenBM 15:47, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
What wording would be better? The alternatives I could think of were problematic in one way or another. For example, saying "Like many other magicians..." is unsourced. Using "most" or "many" would in and of itself require a source, and using "some" is silly because some people in any category (except overtly religious ones, perhaps) will be non-believers. That's why I chose specific examples instead of making it vague and unsourced. If you can suggest a wording that doesn't have these problems, that would be great. It would also be an option to simply remove the in-text mention (and possibly add Category:American atheists just to keep it accurate) if this info isn't important enough to include. If it is important for some reason, there should be more context as to why. --Icarus (Hi!) 23:04, 15 January 2007 (UTC)


I think the atheism part (source?) could be connected to the fact that in his seminars he talks about tribes and so forth, saying things like "Approach anxiety is hardwired into your brain, because forty-thousand years ago etc etc" which has to do with the evolution theory. It's not about the wording, I just find 'atheist' such a random tag when mentioned in a context that's hardly relevant. It's like randomly mentioning Oprah Winfrey's favorite tv programme or whatever on her page. Like I said before, if it stays irrelevant random info I think it should be deleted: Mystery is not about atheism. He's about Pick Up Artistry. JurgenBM 02:38, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Atheism describes a person's world views (similar to mentioning what a person's religon is on their article), thus it is relevant and not at all on the same level as what is "Oprah Winfrey's favorite tv programme". Mathmo Talk 08:03, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
I don't think atheism describes a person's world views, it merely describes the belief that there is no God or lack of belief in God. There either should be a piece of information about Mystery's world views where atheism could be mentioned or it should be left out of the article.
Sorry sorry, I'll merely rephrase it to stating that it generally describes a significant part of their world views. The gist of my point still remains. Mathmo Talk 01:09, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
People's world views are part of who they are, people aren't part of their world views. If you tag someone on Wikipedia with the predicate 'atheist', 'Jew', 'Muslim', 'Christian' or 'Buddhist' without these people being known for that aspect of their beliefs, it almost feels like a judgement when reading it.
No, we leave that up to the reader their judgement about it depending on how they feel about Atheists/Jew/Muslims/Christians/Buddhist/etc/... if they like them or not, or simply indifferent about it. Mathmo Talk 01:09, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
That's not my point. If you tag someone with a single word without any context of how the person and that trait relate to each other, it reads like they're being superficially pigeon-holed and thus judged for these traits or beliefs. That doesn't have to do with not letting the reader have their own judgement about these people. JurgenBM 19:07, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
In this article also the mentioning of Penn & Teller and James Randi are awkward. It's like saying something like "Will Smith, like Eddie Murphy and Cedric the Entertainer, is an african american actor.". JurgenBM 19:49, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
If african american actors where not very well known people then perhaps it would be worthwhile mentioning them. Mathmo Talk 01:09, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
Why? What's the difference? JurgenBM 19:07, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
If it was assumed that actors were white and you were pointing out that Will Smith is a black actor, and not the only one, then it would be worthwhile —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.169.217.150 (talk) 03:33, 7 May 2008 (UTC)


Hmm. On second thought, I'm not aware of Mystery having actually used the word "atheist" to describe himself. It's late, but I'll try to find the exact quotation from his DVD series tomorrow. --Ryan Delaney talk 08:31, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Article title

There is a discussion regarding whether 'David DeAngelo' should be listed under his real name or his pseudonym. The discussion, by extension, applies to this article as well.

See here for the discussion.

— Sasuke Sarutobi 15:46, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

By the same line of reasoning, this article needs to be moved back to its previous name of "Mystery (seduction guru)". The reasoning once again is that as per WP:NC(CN), the most common name of a person is to be used. It also states that it okay to use pseudonyms like Mark Twain, Marilyn Monroe, Billy the Kid. I'm therefore proceeding with the restoration. --Amit 17:09, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Letterman

Does anybody have any more details about his appearance on Letterman? Mathmo Talk 06:38, 7 March 2007 (UTC)


HEY! :P

I can't use wikipedia too well but I do have some information for you of more experience.


Mystery ahs a new show called "The Pick-up Artist"

It will start airing on VH1 on August 6th.

look it up on vh1, and mysterys site "Venusionarts.com" - hate to break it to you but "venusionarts.com" is not a real website.

And he also mentioned it in his emails, as did Style.

K guys.

Might also want to mention he formed project Miami.

[edit] Comment by User:75.89.153.205

Hey guys, the article is way to negative.

its talking about him getting sued, and how people say his methods are flawed, yet very little infor on his new show, his last book, and his upcoming ebook.


more postive guys. ((unsign|75.89.153.205}}

It is true, there was a terrible mess between him and the company. So that is why it is there. Yeah, I agree there should be more recent info. Encyclopaedias are like that, sometimes they get outdated. But hey, at least we are kept way more up to date than any paper encyclopedia! Mathmo Talk 07:34, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] More positive notes... plus his Television show on VH1!

Mystery has a new show, awesome by opinion, called the Pick Up Artist aired monday nights on VH1. There needs to be information on this, as well as what the show entails. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.91.37.33 (talk) 13:44, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Criticism and controversy

This section of the article strikes me as representing an unbalanced viewpoint under Wikipedia:Neutral point of view#Undue weight, as it only includes critical opinions, while the article isn't balanced with any favorable opinions. I'm also not sure how mainstream these opinions are, so they may represent minority or tiny-minority views as well. Some cleanup and additional sources may be needed for balance, as well as a determination of what the majority and minority views are. Dissolva 05:04, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm eliminating this section. It was obviously made in haste (grammatical errors, disrupts the page layout), contains no references, and is POV as to whether a "neg" is considered a good or a bad thing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.237.89.52 (talk) 18:52, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] (venusian artist)

This qualifier in the name is a neologism, and under WP:NEO, neologisms should be avoided in Wikipedia articles. I admit that finding a qualifier under the guidelines at WP:NAMEPEOPLE is a bit tricky for this article. Formerly it was (seduction community), then (seduction guru). Perhaps (pickup artist) would be in order as that is the term Markovik is finding increased notability under and can be cited? Dissolva 05:19, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree that "Venusian artist" is not right. I think something like "seduction guru" or "seduction community" would be best, and would give us a chance to standardize article titles. --Ryan Delaney talk 06:14, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
I second (or third) the renaming. Hoof Hearted 18:49, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
I third (fourth?) this sentiment. "Venusian artist" is a self-applied description Mystery used to distinguish himself from other "pickup artists" in the field. I suggest a change to "Seduction Guru" or even "Pickup Artist" -- something more standard within other articles about noteworthy seduction professionals. Thurston Weatherton 17:49, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
I'm leaning towards (seduction community) or (pickup artist) as (seduction guru) strikes me as possibly biased. Some people might consider Markovik a guru, but there seems to be quite a number of critics that probably do not. Can we establish a consensus for one of these? Dissolva 05:06, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
There are millions of people in the 'seduction community'. There is a smaller group of 'seduction gurus' who write and teach to everyone else in the community. Noone, except for possibly political or business reasons, would deny Mystery the title of 'seduction guru' even those who dont like him. His vocabulary is used ubiquitously throughout the community, and he's probably THE highest regarded and most well known out of all of the gurus. My point is that there is a difference between being in the seduction community and being one of the gurus to that community, and no one would question that Mystery falls into the latter catagory. --66.169.217.150 (talk) 03:42, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
Anything other than "Venusian artist," which is both outright silly and quite probably a trademarked phrase on Markovik's part. "Seduction Community" sounds fine to me. "Pickup Artist" equally so, since that phrase doesn't necessarily confer any value judgments upon the person being described (the phrase has been around long before the Internet seduction community sprung into being, and the word "artist" in this case is purely functional -- it doesn't signify any sort of respect or lack thereof for the title-holder). Thurston Weatherton 03:39, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
Agreed, "venutian artist" is a silly title and poor organisation of data. I think (seduction community) would be most appropriate, since it is a perfectly adequate amount of information to unambiguously discern who he is. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gregory j (talk • contribs) 01:14, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Recategorizing: (Seduction Community) vs. (Pickup Artist)

We seem to be in agreement that the label "Venusian Artist" is inappropriate for this article. Now let's try to establish consensus on the new label we're going to apply. There seems to be equal support for both (Seduction Community) and (Pickup Artist), with reasonable arguments for either choice. As best I can tell, (Seduction Community) would work because it is neutral and unambiguous to a degree. (Pickup Artist) would work because it is perhaps even less ambiguous, it is also neutral, and it is a term commonly used both within the "Seduction Community" and outside of it. I could go either way here, but I'm leaning toward (Pickup Artist). What does everyone else think? Thurston Weatherton 15:06, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

All right. No takers, so I'm going to move the page to "Mystery (Pickup Artist)" in the meantime and leave the discussion open. Whether or not "Pickup Artist" ends up being Mystery's final resting place, I think we're all in agreement that "Venusian Artist" is not the right label for him. Thurston Weatherton 15:36, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Hmmm...nevermind. It seems someone has already made a "Mystery (seduction community)" page which is a redirect to this one, and a "Mystery (pickup artist)" page which is a (in my opinion, informationally flawed) redirect to the "Mystery Method" page. We may need some admin assistance here, as I am not capable of deleting those pages in service of this movie. But I think deleting the dummy/redirect page "Mystery (pickup artist)" and moving this one to that would be in order. A search inquiry into Mystery the person should not turn up a page on the Mystery Method, as Markovik and his former corporation are clearly a) not the same entity, and b) in the midst of a legal battle predicated on that fact. Thurston Weatherton 15:42, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
  • I tend to think that Mystery (Seduction community) or Mystery (Seduction guru) works better than "pick-up artist", but I do think that all of the above are better than the current title. You're right about the redirect- I'll fix that up now. By the way, please allow more than one day for discussion of these topics, since they aren't very high visibility and hence discussion tends to move slowly. --Ryan Delaney talk 22:04, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Personally I would be fine with "(venusian artist)" redirecting to "(pickup artist)" as a matter of convenience, but right now it's still the former, and I feel it's outright absurd. WP:NEO, of course, but simply applying common sense I feel it would be a no-brainer that people would be more familiar with "pickup artist" by a wide margin. Mentioning and/or explaining the term "venusian artist" in the intro might be a good idea, however. Goodnewsfortheinsane 14:56, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

  • My preference would be Mystery (pickup artist) followed by Mystery (seduction community). Dissolva (talk) 21:00, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
    • I, too, support a permutation of "pickup artist" (compound, or hyphenated like Juggler (pick-up artist)) for PUA names. Following that, I like "seduction community". "Guru" and others are problematic, and the current "venusian artist" was clearly a navel-gazing advertisement. —RVJ (talk) 23:32, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Moved to "Mystery (pickup artist)" since this seems to be the consensus choice here. Gwernol 22:24, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Croatian

That Markovik is of Croatian heritage keeps being inserted into the article, I'm assuming perhaps because some consider it to be a Croatian name. The fact he is of German heritage is supported by the inline citation, but I have found no reliable source for Croatian. Please cite a source for this before including it in the article as per WP:V. Dissolva (talk) 20:54, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] MYstery is not a "Self proclaimed PUA" he's considered #1 and most influential=

People basically follow his methods(or a variation therof) or follow somthing which was created as a reaction to his methods. http://www.thundercatseductionlair.com/2008/01/the-top-10-pick.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.130.202.252 (talk) 09:21, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

That isn't a reliable source for that claim. The fact that one blog declares him their "#1 of 2008" isn't meaningful. There are lots of blogs that declares Mystery all sorts of not very nice things. It wouldn't be any more appropriate to include those in the article than to include this. Gwernol 09:25, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

I dont think you understand the seduction community. This is how Stlye(Neil Strauss) was listed as "one of the best" this is considered a value source in the community. TIME magazine is not going to cover the TOP 10 PUAs of the year if thats your definition of a "reliable source" which BTW is just someones opinion as well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.130.202.252 (talk • contribs)

I'm afraid you don't appear to understand Wikipedia. All articles must be verifiable through the use of reliable sources. There is no special exemption for the seduction community. It really does mean that you need Time magazine (or some equally reliable equivalent) to publish something before it can be added to an article. This is an encyclopedia, not a blog for the seduction community. Gwernol 09:35, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

There are tons of prominent people in the Seduction Community who would be very upset if they were described as endorsing Mystery or his self-proclaimed "#1" status —Preceding unsigned comment added by 38.98.1.215 (talk) 05:48, 20 March 2008 (UTC)