Talk:Muhammad Ali/Archive1

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Archive This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Contents

SI Most Overrated athlete of the century

SI said he was the most overrated athlete of the century. I want this included. http://images.si.com/inside_game/leigh_montville/news/1999/12/08/montville_mali/

Birthplace and early life

Needs to be some information here. I'd add some, but I don't know any :(

Okay, I (I being the guy who posted the comment above) added his birthplace. That's a start.


Why is there no mention of Ali or When We Were Kings?

It seems that these two movies based on his life should be included...when doing a search for merely "Ali" you don't get a disambiguation page either. You have to know to search Ali (film).

Hi. I'm about to add in a line about the way that Ali "sung his own praises." The wiki as it stands implies, in accordance with the conventional wisdom, that Ali was merely arrogant and cocky. But, he has stated before that he developed the self-praise-singer strategy as a youngster, when he realized that acting like a braggart would draw out the largest crowds to watch his fights. He has said that he'd intentionally bait everyone in that way, knowing that everybody would come to witness the fight and see him get beat up. I can't remember the source where I read this, it was a biographical coffee-table type book, with all kinds of quotes from Ali interspersed among photographs and textual details of his career. I can't remember the source, but I'm adding it to the wiki anyway. It's an important detail to understand Ali's character correctly.

hgfhgfhgfhghgfhgh

I intend to expand on Ali's professional career soon, but obviously if anyone else wants to then go ahead. Mswake 16:01 Jul 23, 2002 (PDT)

Nice formatting fixes, Zoe. Ed Poor 16:15 Jul 23, 2002 (PDT)

Please finish this off - there are some good links on about.com to provide source material, and also on http://www.worldofbiography.com/9118-Muhammad%20Ali/ [formerly top-biography.com]an excellent source. Don't copy and paste from them.

Regarding the Egyptian leader, there are various spellings including Muhammad Ali, Mohammed Ali, Mehemet Ali, Mehmet Ali, right now I will change the links to Mehemet Ali (Egypt) as that has more links in the Wikipedia, later we can move or redirect it if necessary. ¬ Dori 21:22, 8 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Islam

Didn't Ali convert to orthodox Islam, like Malcolm X? I'd like to see more about this in the article. Jdavidb 20:19, 9 Jul 2004 (UTC)


I'm working on how best to address Ali's religious views in the article, and may be making more changes in the near future. Right now information on religion in the article is scattered and occasionally misleading. I'm going to lay out what I've got now here in the talk page before incorporating it, and hope yins can help. Ali's religious history seems notable enough to deserve its own section - possibly a cleanup/rewrite of the "changes his name section" seperating it somewhat from his fight history. At the moment, any information present in the article is awkwardly spliced into a number of places based partly on chronology. The current placement of the Name section seems to be mostly in place to explain the references to the change in the preceding section on the Patterson fight. Although this preserves the narrative flow from the Liston to Patterson fights, it leads to his entire career from 66-69 as well as his opposition to being drafted during the Vietnam War all being under a heading solely about his name change. Whether placed chronologically or thematically, it seems to me that the issues regarding Vietnam, being stripped of his championship belt, and the like should be a distinct section - this string of related events are fairly significant in the course of Ali's life and are fairly well known, if possibly not entirely accurately. Ali's resistance to the draft was due in part to to his religious beliefs, but it shouldn't be lumped into a section on religion any more than it should necessarily be lumped into the section about his professional career. To be honest, the article has some serious structural flaws from the beginning (e.g., the rumble and Thrilla being a subsection w/in Fight of the Century section) that make it different to work with. As soon as I figure out how to fit them in without damaging the structural integrity of the article, I'll get started on this stuff. The main issues, for me, that need reworking or clarification are these: 1) Ali's original conversion to NOI/BM; 2) The associated changing of Ali's name; 3)Ali & Vietnam; 4)Ali's conversion to Sunni Islam. I've got decent sources on most of these, but the article doesn't need added content nearly as much as it needs a change in structure. One example: Ali's second religious conversion was previously mentioned in two spots (see my changes, a very temporary solution), neither of which is entirely appropriate on the basis of both chronology or article structure (and both of which have fairly awkward diction - presumably the author was having as much trouble working with the article as I am). I'll... see what I can do about this. I'd appreciate any help. Door 05:30, 23 March 2006 (UTC) I've made some changes (as I said, mostly structural thus far) and tossed in a bit re #4 at the relevant chronological point (actually, roughly the same place I'd excised it from because I didn't like how it fit). I'm going to step back from it for a bit, but it still could use some work. Door 09:59, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

What does this sentence mean? "The adoption of this name symbolized his new identity as a Muslim, and he retained the name even after his later conversion to Islam." His later conversion? If he was already a Muslim at the time, how could he convert to Islam LATER? Perhaps this might have been written by someone who doesn't understand that a Muslim is someone who is a follower of Islam? Or is there something I'm missing? --Jaardon 15:02, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Youre an IDIOT, first Ali converted to the religion of Nation of Islam and <that is not real Islam as they do not believe in Muhammad being the last and true prophet of islam, and they dont even follow the Quran, and they Believe that Their Founder (of Nation of Islam) is the incrnation of God, which is not true and Islam teaches none of this!!!That is why he converted to SUNNI Islam.
THe above unsigned comment was added by T00C00L

Listen the Nation of Islam is an organization spawned from Islam to help build a nation of people. It's specifically designed for the black man and woman all over the world, others can benefit but it's intentions were to build up black men and women. We believe that prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) was a true prophet and he was the last prophet. The last Messenger of Allah was the Honorable Elijah Muhammad. A Messenger gives to you that of which was told to him by the Great and Mighty God Allah. A prophet predicts what will happen and brings scriptures along with him as well as telling what Angels have told him of what Allah has told them. Yes sir we do read from the Quran and Islam has gotten off of it's original track that's why Allah had to come, in the person of Master Fard Muhammad (whom praises are due forever), had to come and give us the basics again. Also Allah has to have a physical form in order to be of any relevence in this physical world. So this vessel of Master Fard Muhammad (whom praises are due forever) was specifically made to hold the spirit of Allah, the originator of the Heavens and the Earth.

Gold medal

Ali's story on the fate of his 1960 Olympic gold medal has wavered over the years. Recently, he's been more likely to say that it was simply lost. Might be worth noting alongside the story of it being tossed in the Ohio River, if someone can find something definitive. Bill Lumbergh Aug 27, 2004

Casual reader opinion: it would be nice to have some more info about the present-day Ali

I support the Casual reader's opinion -Wolfie001 20:31, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

I know Hunter Thompson claimed that Ali threw it in a river in one of his books (Songs of the doomed?) - if true, doesn't that warrent a mention?


There should be something about the gold medal. There is an account in his autobiography (The Greatest - I think) plus the replacement of it during half time of a Dream Team basketball game during the 1996 Olympics. How can these not rate a mention?

Ali's Irish Ancestry

Has anyone got the goods on this? I am aware that his great-great grandfather or great-great-great grandfather was an Irishman from Co. Clare who emigrated to America in the 1850's, fell in love with and married a black woman. Ali does not seem proud of this as I have read of him on at least one occasion see it more in terms of a white man raping a black woman rather than the love match it seems to have being. I'm not drawing attention to this just because of his Irish descent (though I am delighted as an Irishman to learn of it!) but also because I think it sheds interesting light on Ali himself. Fergananim

This seems to back thing up:

Awful First Paragraph

Man, that first paragraph is awful. It's so repetitive and replete with bad grammar it needs to be completely rewritten.

So very true. Someone fix it, now. Kine 04:26, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I third the motion. I think someone who is a cross between P.T. Barnum and Al Sharpton wrote that first paragraph. Certainly "The Greatest" deserves better.Hokeman 01:49, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Um, you guys have all the power as any other person, so, um, fix it yourself -Wolfie001 20:32, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Float like a butterfly etc / Superman

The article doesn't explain where the famous "float like a butterly, sting like a bee" quote comes from, and it's quite hard to look that kind of thing up on the internet definitively. Also, wasn't there a mid-1970s Superman spin-off comic in which Ali and Superman had a fight, and then teamed up to defeat... Mr Mykzlptzk (or whoever)?-Ashley Pomeroy 09:56, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Certainly not, their opponent were the Scrubbs, a sort of made up aliens. Ali wins both the fight against Superman and the one against the alien Champion, but it is clear in the rest of the comic that Superman (with the powers he retains under a Red sun far more dangerous) and Ali had agreed to fix the fight, it's not even very clear whether the Superman Ali defeated is the real one, rather than Bundini Brown (Kal and Bundini had changed places to fool the aliens, but whether that was before or after the fight between Superman and Muhammad Ali is not revealed) (Have the book here).

Theodore W. 11:32, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

How about giving that book an article of its own? Theodore W. 17:44, 31 July 2005 (UTC)


The saying refered to his style/technique. His speed and grace in boxing, being light on his feet ("float like a butterfly...") and his quick, punishing jabs ("...sting like a bee"). Hope that helps. -Wolfie001 21:50, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Wepner?

I'm reading the page as someone interested in Ali and not someone with much knowledge of him, so when I want to put Chuck Wepner in there somewhere, I don't know where it would go. I would appreciate someone more knowledgeable adding him in. -Denkc 05:17 Jul 13, 2005 (PDT)

Done

Did a short paragraph on the Wepner fight. According to Stallone, Wepner and not Chuvalo was the primary inspiration for Rocky -- afaik, the main person who claimed that the Chuvalo fight played a major factor in "Rocky" was Chuvalo himself. I cited authority for it.

On that general topic, there is quite a bit of undocumented assertion in the article of the type strongly discouraged by Wiki's NPOV policy. (Wiki calls them "weasel words" but I don't like the term, as it sounds too negative and implies intentional misrepresentation.) There is almost no documentation of facts, and a great deal of opinion that is unattributed. I realize that lack of attribution usually comes from the amount of time it takes to run down sources and deal with Wiki's Byzantine referencing system, but some work is badly needed on this.

Also the article overall needs some balance to achieve NPOV.

Racist Vandalism?

I'd like to alert those more familiar with both this page and to Ali to the following edit: [1] The edit could hardly be more significant in its scope, yet it seems to have not been noticed, and indeed is still there right now. The original diner story is widely cited elsewhere, not least in Ali's own autobiography, _The Greatest_. I'll leave it those of you involved in this page to make the changes you feel are appropriate. In mentionioning this, I note that the editor who made the change also added references to a white power group elsewhere in Wikipedia Zebra murders. Ferg2k 06:33, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

I've reverted this vandalism myself. [2] Ferg2k 15:50, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
Found and removed as irrelevant another reference to this from 129.24.95.222 in early part of page. [forgot to sign this] Ferg2k 07:17, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

Cassius Marcellus Clay

Ezeu, you were correct in noting that the link to Cassius Marcellus Clay was circular. Unfortunatly that was due to a bit of a mess when I was merging two articles about him. The link works now, and it seems to be relevant... Cheers --Bookandcoffee 02:52, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

HIS STYLE Mohammad Ali has a highly unorthodox style for a heavy weight boxer. He carried his hands to his sides rather than to his face to defend him from his opponents blows. He punched to the head unlike most boxers. added by (shabbir bokhari)

Hajj

Does anybody know when Muhammad Ali-Haj actually made the Hajj?

I dont know when, but rest assured that he has. It would be funny otherwise - Ali can afford a ticket, he is a devout muslim and he has been to Saudi Arabia several times. If he has not made the Hajj, then we are on to a scoop. / Ezeu 05:47, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
During his 1964 UN visit, he reportedly said that he wanted to visit Mecca, but he certainly didn't make the hajj with Malcolm X. A biography says that he went in January of 1972. This picture claims to be of Ali in Mecca on a "New Year's" (sic) trip, which fits. He appears to be barefoot and wearing the ihram. There's possibly a doctrinal issue of whether a hajj made previous to conversion (NOI is not, strictly speaking, regarded as one of the Muslim sects, and this was three years previous to Ali's second conversion) qualifies, but I think that it would since it was made as a pilgrimage it would count. I can't find what month Dhu al-Hijjah was in '72, so technically it could even just be umrah. For the time being, I think it would be safe to call the '72 trip hajj. I can't find any proof that he's returned to Mecca since, but he may well have. It's highly unlikely that he made the hajj before '72. Door 08:10, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Phantom Punch??

He knocked out Liston in the first round of their rematch in Lewiston, Maine on May 25, 1965, albeit controversially; as few observers saw the "phantom punch" that floored Liston --Can someone explain better that the wiki did??

I found somthing or it could be a prank

Hello there I found somthing on Sonny Liston Discussion it's weird, or a PRANK. Saying he is Mr. X

Who is Anthony Pratt?

This article says: "Despite this, he remains a hero to millions around the world. In 1985, he was called upon to negotiate for the release of kidnapped Americans in Lebanon. In 1996, he had the honor of lighting the Olympic flame in Atlanta, Georgia. Every public appearance by Ali is treasured, including his appearance at the 1998 AFL Grand Final, where NFL Hall of Famer Anthony Pratt recruited him to watch the game."

But there is no one with the name Anthony Pratt on the NFL's hall of fame website. pro-football-reference.com and databasefootball.com do not list any players with that name either.