Talk:Moriori

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[edit] Wiped out?

Claims that the Moriori were 'wiped out' by Maori are untrue.

How does slaughtering, canabalising and enslaving a group does not count as wiping out? There is not one single full-blooded Moriori remaining as a consequence.
I agree with you, up to a point. I do think the full-bloodedness (or the lack of it) argument is something of a red herring - where, for that matter, are the full blooded Angels, the full blooded Saxons, Jutes, Vikings, etc. that colonized England in ancient times? Even without enslavement and genocide, intermarriage would have taken its course, as happens when any two cultures live in proximity for any length of time. Having said that, I agree that what happened on the Chatham Islands was genocide. David Cannon 12:00, 10 Jun 2004 (UTC)

perhaps you meant full blooded ANGLES? Gringo300 08:42, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I agree with David mostly. You seem confused. Although the Māori might have commited genocide in the modern definition, the Moriori still exist and so there is no way you can say they were wiped out by the Māori anymore then you can say the Aboriginal people were wiped out by the Australian European colonists or that the Māori were wiped out by the Pakeha colonists. Nil Einne 09:33, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] How many?

From what I know, the Chatham didn't support many people (with the technology available to the Moriori). Could you estimate how many Moriori lived there? Even roughly: hundreds? thousands?

  • The Treaty of Waitangi Tribunal estimates around 2000 before the invasion with that figure falling by 90% by 1870. Alan 03:35, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Categories

I've put this in the Category:Maori, but it seems wrong there. Any suggestions? [[User:Grutness|Grutness talk ]] 09:48, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Moriori origin confusion

I'm somewhat confused by what the article says. On the one hand it states that "ancestral Moriori migrated as Māori from ... New Zealand about 1500 AD". On the other hand it states that it is an "unsubstantiated myth that the 'Moriori' ... originally inhabited New Zealand before the fairer-skinned Māori arrived".

Although I acknowledge that the two statements do not necessarily contradict each other, they still leave me somewhat confused as to the origin of the Moriori.

I believe that a clarification is required. What is myth and what is assumed to be correct? --Oz1cz 09:29, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

Why call it a "debunked" myth? Also, please source the scholars who now agree about the origin of the Moriori, and whether these scholars opinions are the majority or not.

I don't quite get your confusion. Ancestral Moriori migrated from the Māori to the Chatam Islands in around 1500 AD as stated. While specific details vary, I don't think there are any scholars of any sort who disputre that the Moriori originated from the Māori or that they were originally localised to the Chatam Islands. However there used to be a myth (actually taught in school!) that the Moriori were a dark skinned race of people who inhabited NZ b4 the fairer skinned Māori took over and slaughtered them. As said in the article, this myth was seen as a justification for the later European colonisation of NZ and for their actions towards the Māori. (The Māori did it to the Moriori, we're just doing the same thing, it's the natural order). However this myth has been more of less completely debunked and I don't think any serious scholar beliefs it any more. The only time you ever hear this myth is when some idiot writes to the paper complaining about some perceived injustice or perceived bias towards Māori Nil Einne 09:29, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
Nil Einne has it right. It is amazing how these old myths keep rearing their heads long after it has been demonstrated that there is no evidence in support of them. Kahuroa 05:06, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
Not so quickly. The problem here is actually two: a) the assumption that the Moriori were of "racially distinct stock", and b) the assumption that the Moriori trace back to earlier immigrants than "mainstream" or "modern" Māori culture (i.e., post-moa-hunting period, that is, evolving around 1300-1400ish as the resource base shifted from big-game hunting towards agriculture and marine resources), and might never have had much to do with that. The first concept is not correct at all, whereas the second is entirely possible and will be subject of debate in the immediate future considering the recent Rattus exulans paper which has shifted the debate back again to the state some 15 years ago, sans some knee-jerk stuff. "Mainstream" Māori culture seems more likely than not not to have one single origin, instead being the product of at least two major and several minor immigrations that possibly started as early as c.850AD, and had more evolutionary leeway before the depletion of big game shifted carrying capacity (downwards unless the resource base changed, which it did, and the modern Māori culture is a direct consequence and product of this). Given that the process of "agriculturalization" had a roughly N -> S trajectory, and given the Moriori-Kāi Tahu similarity and the home turf of the latter, the underlying idea could be expressed by saying "the Moriori are fairly direct descendants of the very first Māori", but more research in the relationship between the Kāi Tahu and the (far north) Ngāti Porou is needed to resolve the history of the former.
The point is that the earliest "proto-Māori" were altogether absorbed into a more unified Māori culture later on on the mainland (a significantly distinct "early immigrant" culture could have only developed on S Island in any case if at all), but that the Moriori may have been emigrated from the mainland early enough not to have been much participated in this homogenization process. A lot of genealogical and subsequent haplotype studies will be needed to really shed light on this question. Dysmorodrepanis 14:49, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
I don't think this has anything to do with the real issue which is that Moriori weren't a dark skinned race who inhabited New Zealand before they were slaughtered by the Māori. This myth is IMHO still debunked and the recent evidence doesn't change that. Whatever the surely complex history of the Māori and whatever the history of Moriori, the fact remains they weren't a dark skinned race who originally inhabited the main land but were wiped out by the invading Māori. They may have been descendents from earlier settlers who emigrated from the main land fairly early on but this still a far cry from the old myth Nil Einne 21:49, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

How does Michael Kings one book change the myth to debunked and then shift the burden of proof on to the other side? Michael Kings book is based on as much fact as you get by going to Auckland Museum (near nil) and the rest is hearsay and conjecture.60.234.238.153 10:52, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree -- Michael Kings book should in no way be taken as definitive. He gives very little historical evidence and bases his claim on fickle etymology in the similarities between the Moriori language and the Maori dialect of certain South Island tribes. No definitive archeological evidence backs up his claim, neither does any genetic (mtDNA) research. The truth is that the question can never be answered firmly. Whilst it is possible that the Moriori were separate 'race' to the Maori, it is extremely unlikely they were. That is not to say that the Moriori were not a Maori (or other) Polynesian group who were dispersed from the main islands by more aggressive encroachment. They may have even chosen to leave the mainland on their own account or could have done so by accident. What is clear is that the matter is in no way resolved. I also think that the current article should be edited to 'debunk' the myth that the issue is resolved. —Preceding unsigned comment added by The hell surfer (talk • contribs) 05:32, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] origin of name

I shortened the convoluted sentence (partly my fault) about the origin and meaning of the word moriori. Kahuroa 05:00, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merged article

I've merged most of the content from Moriori of The Chatham Islands, a more recent article on the same subject. I'm not sure that what I've added is correct, or that I haven't missed something, so feel free to check. -- Avenue 01:08, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Arrival

Would there be any value in changing "about 1500" to "between the ninth and sixteenth century"? Matt (talk) 23:39, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Iwi table

Do others think the Iwi template should be added? Not sure if its appropriate.

Matt (talk) 03:52, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Seems inappropriate to me. Doubtless the Moriori have their own internal tribal divisions, so that should go on first. Kahuroa (talk) 11:24, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "This hypothesis is no longer widely accepted"

False. Many New Zealanders still believe this - trying not be racist - Maori have shut this hypothesis down, as they believe they were the first here. Of cause everything is down to belief and opinions - but what I'm trying to say is the hypothesis that Moriori exsisted is actually widely belived. CipherPixel (talk) 10:54, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Any objections from getting rid of the statement? It is not really needed in the article CipherPixel (talk) 12:18, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
I think we should strengthen the statement to say "This story spread in the 19th and early 20th centuries, but was conclusively disproven from the 1960s." That some people still believe this is a good reason to explain that it's nonsense. It's also incorrect to suggest the Māori shut down the hypothesis - it was a Pakeha construct built over several Māori myths, and it is Pakeha historians who demonstrated that it is nonsense.-gadfium 19:47, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
Well put gadfium. I agree it should be strengthened - I think some of edits over the last six months or so, probably well meaning, made things a bit ambiguous and even took out sources which were actually helpful. You're right that Pakeha historians shot it down, and lets not forget Pakeha, well Canadian, linguists like Ross Clark Kahuroa (talk) 21:34, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
I agree CipherPixel (talk) 00:12, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Word origins

I took this out: Māori may have developed as a variant of Moriori. Wrong, because Māori is the older word, which we know for sure because Māori as a word has cognates in other Polynesian languages and has been reconstructed to Proto-Polynesian as maqoli or maaqoli. Moriori does not which means it has to be the younger word. Kahuroa (talk) 11:36, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Extremely Politically-Skewed Article

This article is dramatically biased.

The question of whether there were pre-Maori inhabitants of New Zealand is highly controversial current topic -- with the Maori-only camp periodically claiming the issue is completely settled in their favor, and anything to the contrary is debunked racism.

The question of the ethnic origins of the Moriori of the Chathams is also not settled -- they were clearly physically distinct from the Maori.

There are political and economic issues skewing the entire debate: the Maori base their moral claims on being "the" indigenous people of NZ, not one of several invading peoples; the present day Chatham Islanders who may be slightly of Moriori ancestry can claim coverage for the Chatham Islands under the Waitangi Treaty (with huge economic benefits) only if they are the "same people" as the Maori of mainland New Zealand with whom the treaty was negotiated.

Here's the giveaway: "It [the 'myth' of the Moriori] still appears sometimes in overseas publications, such as recent editions of Encarta". Clearly something appearing in a (non-political-activist-edited) encyclopedia is not "debunked" and needs to be discussed in a Wikipedia article neutrally and dispassionately.

Sorry, but the evidence that Moriori are closely related to Māori is overwhelming. If you believe you have evidence that archaeologists have overlooked, please publish in a peer-reviewed archaeological journal, or cite such an article.-gadfium 20:22, 4 June 2008 (UTC)