Talk:Mongols

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[edit] Archives

  • 2002-08 - 2007-03

[edit] "Mongol" derives from a Tungusic language?

Does anyone have a reference for this claim? I cannot think of a cognate in Manchu that would mean "the invincible ones." There is a Manchu word, mangga, which means "difficult; tough, strong; somewhat greater (than), somewhat more (than)," but that is neither a perfect phonetic match for "Mongol," nor a perfect semantic match for "the invincible ones." Ebizur 02:40, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

That paragraph was translated from the german language version without extra checking. I now went back and saw that it was originally added there by an editor who became "famous" for writing without decent sources... I remember seeing a derivation from "mongguor" in other places, but don't currently have the time to do an exhaustive search. Feel free to correct/replace/remove. --Latebird 07:47, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
I have nothing to do with that note, but to my knowledge, there was a Chinese ancient document "Xin Tang Shu"（New History Book of Tang Dynasty）written more than two hundred year ago which support this theory. In that book, they record a clan/state called "Monghol" which is located in the ::Jurchen area where people speak Tungusic language. According to other sources from Song dynasty and Jin dynasty, the Tungusic "Monghol" clan/state had trade with Jin (which is a Jurchen group who were ruling Northern Chinese), sometimes raid and plunder Jin area.
After the Mongol Empire invading Jin, there was a document from Song Dynasyt called "建炎以來朝野雜記卷" . in which the author said he did not know why the two states, the "Mongol empire" and the Tunguisc "Mongol state" are thousands miles away, but they use exactly the same name. However, this might be answered in the book written by the Mongols, "secret history of Mongol". In that book, the author claims the ancestor of Gengiskhan family, whoese names are Gray Wolf and White Deer, immigrated from far away under command of their Tenger god. Among the childrens of the couple, there was a girl whose name is "Mongol girl". I think this might suggest the at least some part of ancestors of Gengiskhan family was from Tungusic speaking clans.
This theory was agreed with a famous French expert René Grousse. In his book "L'Empire des Steppes", he suggested the original Mongol clan were from a Forest living clan, with a few evidence, altough he did not direct state the forest-living clans are Tungusic speaking, but it was in general that at that time, that Tungusic speaking people live in forests, the the "Mongol" speaking people were living in stepp.
So it is not baseless to say the Mongol originally were Tungusic speaking or the Mongols have Tungusic blood. However, this might only limited inside the nobels, Families related to Gengiskhan. But probabaly have nothing to do with the majority of the Mongols, especially those slaves. At that time, the Stepp calans capture tens of thousands of slaves, from agricultural area mainly from China and Korea, but sometimes also Persia. The population of captured slaves constitute a great deal in the Mongol empire. So I hesitate to say the major origin of Mongol blood was from Tungusic speaking.Georgezh2007 10:12, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
I do not see why even families related to Gengiskhan should be related to Grey Wolf and White Deer, because the blood line was interrupted between Dobu Mergen and Bodanchar Munkhag, as Bodanshar was born long after Dobu Mergen's death. Temur 18:16, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
While this is all interesting information, it doesn't really prove the theory. You're jumping to conclusions which aren't directly supported by the given sources. This type of interpretation is something we try to avoid at Wikipedia (it is called "Original Research", and strongly discouraged). While I agree with you that a tungusic origin may be likely, to write that into the encyclopedia we need an explicit reference in a reliable published source, preferrably a secondary source. --Latebird 10:45, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] There was much more information in previous version

Why they have disappeared? Georgezh2007 08:45, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

That depends on which "previous version" you mean. At one time, the text duplicated a lot of material from History of Mongolia, which didn't really belong here. This article focuses on ethnicity. --Latebird 09:47, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
What a pity. The old texts should be moved to somewhere but not simply took away.Georgezh2007 10:17, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
No information should have been lost, as those parts were entirely redundant. That topic is covered in History of Mongolia and related articles. If you find anything important that was mentioned here but is missing there, then you are welcome to add it (with sources!) in the appropriate place. --Latebird 10:28, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "related groups" info removed from infobox

For dedicated editors of this page: The "Related Groups" info was removed from all {{Infobox Ethnic group}} infoboxes. Comments may be left on the Ethnic groups talk page. Ling.Nut 23:20, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] atheism not religion

atheism not religion.please your edit. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.246.53.191 (talk) 19:03, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

                How were they atheistic?---Shadowcry1000  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shadowcry1000 (talk • contribs) 01:15, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] External link

I added external link. If you know mongolian, the site will give u more info about mongol clans. Please don not remove it! Enerelt —Preceding unsigned comment added by Enerelt (talk • contribs) 04:17, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

That link offers general information on the cultural history of Mongolia, and is not specific enough for this article. Besides that, we already have good English language links, so that a foreign language link doesn't add any value for our target audience (English language readers). Because of that, I've removed the link as required by WP:EL#Non-English language content. Please do not add it again. --Latebird (talk) 05:44, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Latebird

He doesn't know what he is talking about. He is not accepting any edits to Mongols article now. He wants to keep this article like this and he doesn't want to experiment and try different improvements. He wants Mongols article not changed until he is dead. Accept some improvements. You are not providing anything useful to this article. Discuss your unconstructive edit. 71.237.70.49 (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 09:34, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, and not a place to "experiment". Specifically, your additions were reverted, and will be reverted again in this form, because (among others):
  • Most of it was off-topic. This article is about the Mongols as an ethnic group, and NOT about the History of Mongolia.
  • The cyrillic spelling is irrelevant here, because the article is specificly NOT about the nation of Mongolia (the only place where the Mongolian language is written that way).
  • The Hazara were never an "admixture" to the Mongols.
  • What you call "Mongol physical characteristics" is common to all original inhabitants of Central Asia, and not just the Mongols.
  • Your image gallery contributed nothing that would help a reader understand the ethnic background of the Mongols. It was only a random collection of examples, with no value over the ones already present in the infobox.
And finally, you didn't provide any verifiable, reliable sources to back up anything of what you wrote.
Before you accuse others of not knowing what they're talking about, you might want to learn about the purpose and the goals of Wikipedia first. Not everything you think you know must go into this one single article. If you additions are contested, you can't just add them again, but it is you who needs to explain their value and search for consensus. You might also want to consult WP:NPA. --Latebird (talk) 10:24, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] pics

What's wrong with having a perfectly-scaled pic of wrestlers in the infobox? I am pretty sure most Mongols (males, anyway) edit May 19th: most Mongols that I know can easily relate to these two guys, even if there are some differences in clothing and maybe rules between the wrestling styles of different tribes. Some of the most well-known Mongols today are actually wrestlers. Yaan (talk) 15:15, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

If I might weigh in on the discussion, infoboxes generally illustrate contemporary and historical portraits of the people; for example there are no Turkish oil wrestlers in Turkish people. It's also an untrue stereotype that Mongolian males are hypermasculine and uncultured, and it portrayed Mongols in a negative light (when placed in an infobox). It is an interesting photo that is more appropriate for a section on Mongolian culture or sport. 58.172.35.115 (talk) 05:39, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
The stereotyping is entirely on your side. The pictures show examples of Mongols, either in historical context or during traditional activities. How any of that can "portray Mongols in a negative light" is beyond me. The moriin khuur player is a nice picture, but could easily be dismissed with the same arguments (better suited elsewhere). Btw: can you provide a source for the percentage of the Kalmyks? --Latebird (talk) 07:36, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
It wasn't directed at the photo, but at Yaan's comment that most Mongolian males would relate to the two wrestlers, which is stereotyping. Do most Spanish males relate to matadors? I'd disagree if it was Turkish oil wrestlers in the Turkish infobox. 58.172.35.115 (talk) 09:32, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
No problem, it is [1]. 58.172.35.115 (talk) 09:32, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
Does Turkey often have life coverage of the same wrestling matches on all important TV stations at the same time? Yaan (talk) 11:47, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
I believe important tournaments like Kirkpinbar are covered by multiple TV teams, but I think it's mostly for the Turkish outside of Turkey such as to Azerbaijan. I know it is in the Netherlands, but I'm not sure about Germany. Is there a Turkish-language channel that broadcasts in Germany? 58.172.35.115 (talk) 13:20, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
There is a channel (or several?), but I never watched it. Sumo is all over Mongolian TV whenever there is a basho (i.e. about 12 weeks a year), and I think Naadam is covered in full, too (not sure of the latter, though). Yaan (talk) 13:35, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
Yes, interest must be high if they're importing it from foreign countries. 58.172.35.115 (talk) 04:00, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
I think they are interested because the two top sumo wrestlers are Mongols. But still... Yaan (talk) 11:14, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
Btw. where is the sattelite dish supposed to be in this picture? Yaan (talk) 11:48, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
I just noticed the caption too. I think it's the silver at the bottom of the photo, but it looks small for a satellite dish. 58.172.35.115 (talk) 13:20, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
It is a part of a bigger dish, you can see it at the original photo (linked to at the description site). But I really think the picture is somewhat unfavorable for the woman on the right. I wonder if she agreed to have it published. Yaan (talk) 13:37, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
That's true. It'd be good to include a woman in the box, though, if possible. 58.172.35.115 (talk) 04:00, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Mongols and Tatars

What are the differences between the Mongols and the Tatars? Some writers will use the names synonymously, especially when referring to the Genghis Khan period. Are the Mongols are sub-group of the Tatars? Or were the Tatars Turkic tribes who happen to reside in Mongolia? 24630 (talk) 21:48, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

The term "Tatars" has been used for several different peoples, often quite indiscriminately, similar to how the ancient Romans used "Barbars". Tatar (disambiguation) gives a short overview, the main article Tatars goes into much more detail. --Latebird (talk) 03:58, 12 June 2008 (UTC)