Talk:Mongolic languages

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[edit] Rogue game

I've definitely got a lot to learn on this subject.

I've actually heard that the names of the scrolls in the computer game Rogue are written in one of the Mongolic languages.

Gringo300 03:53, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

Why would this be relevant? --Latebird 08:45, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Because is shows some importance of the languages in the global perspective. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.145.192.111 (talk) 16:12, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Dialects

Darkhat and Khorchin are considered Mongolian dialects, rather than languages. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.73.54.125 (talk • contribs) --Latebird 08:45, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Sources? --Latebird 08:45, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] difference

I'm under the impression that there is actually some difference between the language of the Khalkha and the official language of Mongolia. From what I've read, Mongolia's official language is BASED on the language of the Khalkha. Gringo300 07:52, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Your impression happens to be incorrect. This article is about a different subject matter anyway. --Latebird 08:45, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Template

The subdivision templates throughout Wikipedia tend overwhelmingly to follow the Ethnologue/Linguist List classifications. The text of the article must not be original research so that is why the templates follow Ethnologue/Linguist List by and large. If all the subordinate languages of Mongolic are equal (no subdivisions), then they should be listed individually in the template (see Eastern Algonquian languages or Biu-Mandara A.5 languages for examples). If there is grouping under the level of Mongolic then this should be reflected in the template. The template is for navigation. Without those subbranches or daughters, then the template fails in its purpose of easily navigating through a family tree. (Taivo (talk) 12:14, 17 March 2008 (UTC))

Basically, I agree with you. But first, you won't find me the only linguist to not consider the Ethnologue a reference of choice. Then, more specifically, the classification into “equal” and not so is very difficult. Eg it is possible that Southeastern Mongolic and South-Central Mongolic had a common ancestor, but it is problematic whether this group derives from Common Mongolic (which is about the same as Middle Mongolian) or from Proto-Mongolic. Then, Moghol certainly hails from Middle Mongolian, so it can’t be on the same level, and so do Northern, Western and Central Mongolic. The relation of Ordos to Central Mongolic poses a problem. Therefore, I think that a great bunch of work would have to be undertaken and different approaches to classification compared (the approach in Janhunen 2003 is only one of many and not necessarily representative) before an educated subclassification could be undertaken. I am not gonna do this, and you quite apparently haven’t done so. I therefore think that it's better to be safe than sorry and not write anything at all, or that one should list any language available without any regard to subbranching. And I’d like to have a source for the Eastern Mongolic group, and a list of what languages should be subsumed under this. G Purevdorj 14:17, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
I'll cover the easy stuff first. The "source" for Eastern Mongolic is Ethnologue/Linguist List, but it's also what is found in Ruhlen (1976) from older classifications. Now, that said, I agree with you that Ethnologue/Linguist List and Ruhlen (1976) are not the pinnacles of classification. But they have the advantage of being "global" and relatively free of overt "uncertainty". They are useful for projects such as Wikipedia's language templates for that reason. That, of course, does not preclude a more detailed discussion within the text. Indeed, discussing the problems with Mongolic classification within the text of the article is done often in Wikipedia, even when the template box follows Ethnologue/Linguist List. I actually own a copy of Janhunen 2003 and have read the chapters on classification. I know how thorny the problem of Mongolic classification is. One option short of just listing languages as daughters in the template box is to follow the example of Varieties of Arabic. The Arabic language article's template box has a reference to Varieties of Arabic and on the Varieties page, there is a sort-of classification of the dialects with ISO numbers following varieties. This is by no means an "official" classification, but a working one. There is no unanimity of opinion on its overall "correctness", but it is a working model. But, as with all things on Wikipedia, it gets hammered by the REFERENCES bug/bot. Everything must be verifiable through published sources. That's why the Ethnologue/Linguist List classification scheme, although far from perfect, is useful as a working tool, especially in the templates--it's easily verifiable and accepted as "authoritative" by the Wikipedia powers that be. (Taivo (talk) 15:18, 17 March 2008 (UTC))

[edit] Kitan

If you don't like where Kitan is placed in Linguist List (as a node of Mongolic), then decide where it should be and we'll work out the proper template placement. But the placement of Kitan, according to the rules of Wikipedia, cannot be placed by original research, it must be verifiable by some reference (such as Linguist List, Ethnologue, Jahunnen, etc.) (Taivo (talk) 12:16, 17 March 2008 (UTC))

I'm not a researcher into any premodern Mongolic languages, so it's not necessary to suspect that I write any original research here. But for the classification of Khitan as Pre-Proto-Mongolic, please see "Janhunen, Juha (1996): Manchuria: An Ethnic History. Helsinki: The Finno-Ugrian Society: 145-146". G Purevdorj 13:50, 17 March 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by G Purevdorj (talk • contribs)

So right now, Linguist List places Middle Mongolian, Classical Mongolian and Kitan directly under the Mongolic node. Placing Middle and Classical outside the subgrouping and as separate nodes under the family name is pretty standard for "old" languages even though it's a bit artificial since one kind often blends into another. This is akin to placing Ancient Egyptian, Demotic, and Coptic as three nodes of "Egyptian". It implies three languages even though there was never more than one language spoken at a time.
The problem comes with Kitan, which is a sister to Proto-Mongolic (the "Pre-" is a historical linguist's sleight of hand for a certain type of analysis). We can set up an article for the "Mongolic-Kitan" family, with two daughters--Mongolic and Kitan, but this might prove more problematic than it is worth. I'm not against it, but referencing will be critical. That name is also not found in any of the literature or published classifications. My personal preference would be to have a separate article on Kitan which spells out the classification issues; a Mongolic article that lists Kitan in the template before Middle and Classical Mongolian with a note (as it is right now); and a good discussion of the placement of Kitan in the Mongolic article with an outline of Mongolic daughters excluding Kitan. One thing that I think needs to be done is to pull the discussion of Kitan out of the Mongolian language article and place it here in Mongolic languages and also on the Khitan language page. Having a discussion of Kitan down on the Mongolian language page dilutes the argument that it is a sister of Proto-Mongolic. Having the discussion on the Mongolian language page makes it look like a daughter of Mongolian. (Taivo (talk) 16:00, 17 March 2008 (UTC))

„historical linguist's sleight of hand”? Well put. Totally agree. If we’re lucky, we can get a grasp at Pre-Proto-Mongolic (before its late phase) in 20 years, no use to write much about it now. For that same reason, I wouldn’t consider an article on “Mongolic-Kitan” a good idea. So you can go ahead as you suggested.

“a discussion of Kitan down on the Mongolian language page dilutes the argument that it is a sister of Proto-Mongolic”. I’m not sure. There is one cultural tradition from 1200 to 1900 (leading to a fictuous entity such as a nation that is projected back to about 1150), and (to the notable complication of my own research on modern Mongolian) a literary tradition that continuously exists from 1700 to today in a somewhat adapted way (as is true of Kalmyk and likely also of Buryat literature). So if I would talk about what was before Mongolian, I would start at 1200 looking into the past. On the other hand, as it is now, this information is only provided in Mongolian language and not in the more specific articles, and that might give rise to a false impression indeed. Thus, if you think it is best, take Mongolian language#Prehistoric Mongolic from the Mongolian language article and place it elsewhere. G Purevdorj 17:18, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Nikudari

By inserting "quotation needed", I'm not sure if the Morgan quote would suffice albeit I didn't find the time to look it up. If anyone had the book at hand, any informations from that book and especially its source of information could be quoted at length. Now if there aren't other sources or Morgan proves to be beyond doubt, this reference should not be contained in the content paragraphs, but be buried somewhere in the text body. And it would have to be confirmed that this language is still spoken. Otherwise, something like "It was claimed in year XY by YZ that another Mongolic language, Nikudari, was spoken in ... by such and such a number of speakers of such and such an age." and possibly "Apart from this source, there is no information on this language." G Purevdorj 08:18, 12 May 2008 (UTC)