Talk:Miles Davis

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[edit] Trivia

According to the wiki page, "Music in Civilization IV", Miles Davis is not on the soundtrack. 128.12.125.162 04:26, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV

A Statement such as, "For the first part of that decade, although he gigged a great deal and played many sessions, they were mostly uninspired, and it seemed that his talent was going to waste" does not seem to be coming from a NPOV. This should be reworded.theomanno 15:17 11 December 2005 (EST)

[edit] Miles as Artist

somone should include Miles' stint as an artist. Seeing as how it is evident on his official website, it seems significant enough to include. --ch The electric recordings and live performances with electronic equipment began in 1968; hence the periodization was revised to 1968.

[edit] "understanding" recorded/live difference

My point is simple: WHO are the so-called "authorities" who claim that miles was the "first" person to "understand" the difference between live and recorded music? and secondly, WHAT are the differences? interestingly, none are given, no sources, no citations, and no description of what the "difference" is. so the sentence seems pretty nonsensical and ill-conceived, in fact it's pretty much "journalistic fluff" that has no meaning and is internally contradictory. IF ANYTHING, davis must have defined the difference, or somehow created a difference, if nobody else "understood" it yet. Is the writer trying to say somehow, a distinction existed between live and recorded music, but it just hadn't been put into practice, just hadn't ever been realized by any musician? this is absurd. i'm going to change the passage to say something more sensible.

That sentence went in on the 20th of July [1], and you're right, it needs to come out until it's referenced. --  ajn (talk) 16:30, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Miles fan's critique

Has the length one would expect for a front page featured article, but as far as being a definitive overview of Miles, it falls utterly flat.

There's a lot of passive voice and nameless "critics" and "authorities", conveniently hiding exactly who is making an assertion or opinion.

There are some canards not founded in reality: Miles not having been a technical virtuoso, neglect of his studies at Julliard.

The musical analysis, describing the music with words and attempting to define what it is, is 9th grade.

The section on the 2nd quintet is criminally short, and the "fusion" section relatively out of balance. There must be a lot of contributors who are nuts about the period but don't have an appreciation of the entirety of Miles.

And of course what is the word "jazz" doing anywhere in the article?

— Shadowhillway 13:59, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps you'd like to fix the deficiencies?--malber 20:19, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
That goes without saying here on Wiki! — Shadowhillway 22:58, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
To pick up a few points - whatever Miles's objections to the word "jazz", especially later in his career, he undoubtedly was a jazz musician (prior to the late sixties, certainly). Duke Ellington didn't like the term either, but that doesn't mean it doesn't apply. Referencing could certainly do with tightening up (though the passive voice is normal for an encyclopaedia), and I agree the fusion section is too large relative to the rest of the article. It's generally accepted that Miles was not a technical virtuoso on the trumpet in the way that Dizzy Gillespie or Clifford Brown were. His style of playing arose in part because of limitations in his range - he couldn't play as high or as fast as some of his contemporaries (if I remember correctly he talks about this in his autobiography). He was, clearly, a musical genius. Here are Cook and Morton in the Penguin Guide to Jazz, for example: "It should be understood from the start that Miles was not a virtuoso trumpeter. There were plenty of other slim black men (and some heftier ones, like Dizzy) around at the end of the war who could blow him offstage without effort. Miles's great gift was musical rather than technical." --  ajn (talk) 07:49, 1 October 2005 (UTC)


It's certainly not "generally accepted" that Miles was not a technical virtuoso. Ian Carr and Guy Barker, for example, both feel that he was. It's interesting to notice that they are both trumpet players so know a thing or two about this. Anyone listening to "68 sessions" or "Live at the Blackhawk" or "Four and More" or "Live at the Fillmore East" who thinks Miles was not a technical virtuoso has cloth ears. the Penguin Guide to Jazz is full of exactly this sort of nonsense.

MizMac 15:09, 3 November 2007 (UTC)== The Person ==

I think we need to expand more on the personality of Miles Davis, just as some other musicians. Focusing completely on music does not give us any perspective on what the person was like. Showing them as purely a musician makes reading their article dry, only full of album listings, ect. I will do more research on this subject when I can and then hopefully create a new section in the article for this PlasticMan 07:12, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

I wonder, too, that there is no mention of his personal life outside of the music. According to most accounts, he had relationships with many women--that with Cecily Tyson, being most well known--but I wonder if he was ever married or had children. While this may not need to be a primary focus in the article, it seems there should be some mention of this. (For what it's worth, I would consider the AIDS thing a myth, until proven). (----)

[edit] Prince of Darkness

On the [[Jazz Royalty] page it refers to Davis as the Prince of Darkness. It is not mentioned anywhere in the article here. It should be removed or mentioned in this article. Also this looks like a plug for Marin Committee and should be verified to ensure that it is not: Davis played Martin Committee trumpets throughout his career.157.201.135.143 22:56, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Public Image Ltd.

I've removed the statement that says Miles played with Public Image Ltd. This session list doesn't mention it. But if this is indeed true, then please cite a reference for it. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 19:06, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

  • According to Johnny Rotten in the liner notes of PiL's box set, Miles was at the sessions for Album but for whatever odd reason, his tracks weren't used. I gather from Mr. Rotten's comments in said liner notes that he and Miles got along pretty well though. Cjmarsicano 20:01, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Anti-White Racism

Yesterday I added a section on Miles Davis' hatred of white people as expressed in numerous quotes, some of which are referenced on his Wikiquote. This section was deleted. As a valid aspect of his life and one which is notable, I intend to revert. Similar references to personal life issues such as this are found on other people's Wiki pages and I see no reason why it should not hold true for Miles Davis. - Anonymous

Sorry about the multiple small edits. I made two mistakes I did not catch on two occasions. - Anonymous.

This is not something which is as clear-cut as you seem to think - see the talk archive. In any case, Davis's attitudes to race certainly don't deserve this prominent placement (as important as his discography?). If you want to include a balanced description of his views on social issues, rather than cherry-picking one extreme quote (which was probably intended to wind people up and certainly seems to have succeeded), go ahead. --ajn (talk) 07:00, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

One must take into account the larger context of Davis' life and his actions. For one thing, throughout his life he collaborated with and hired white arrangers and musicians, among them, Gil Evans, Stan Getz, Bill Evans the pianist, Chick Corea, John McLaughlin, Harvey Brooks, Joe Zawinul, Dave Holland, Keith Jarrett, Mike Stern, Bill Evans the saxophonist. He received many affronts among them violent attacks by officers of the law, and racial snubs whites of his high position in the popular arts world never received. --Anonymous

One only has to read the liner notes to Davis' 1957 Album Miles Ahead (q.v.) to realise that Miles got on extremely well with Gil Evans as a result of Evans' indifference at a colleague's racial background - there is a quotation from Miles milself on this matter. If I had the sleeve to hand, I would quote directly from it. Davis disliked the original image on the album cover (see the Miscellanea section in the Miles Ahead article) but only in jest. I really seems that he was just as racist as anyone else of those times - there is no real big deal about it just because it comes from a celebrity. --Edward Tambling

People might enjoy reading "Time of our Singing" by Powers - it describes the experience of a musical mixed-race family at around this time. The emphasis is more on classical music, but it includes some references to the Jazz scene and spends a lot of time conveying just what it was like to be black then. Frankly, I think Davis's comments on race are quite reasonable in that context. It sounded bloody awful. 139.229.7.34 17:27, 14 December 2006 (UTC) andrew cooke (white, as is Powers, afaik)

There is no way Miles was an anti-white racist, despite his living thro the years of 'Black power'. He hired Bill Evans simply because he was an excellent pianist. He later hired Dave Holland, John McLaughlin, Joe Zawinul and many other white musicians. This whole subject is rubbish. SmokeyTheFatCat 20:33, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Miles Davis certainly had 'racist moods' as a result of his experiences and treatment. His hatred was against racist white people though, not white people. I remember reading in Davis' auto-biography something about Gil Evans (white) being his closest friend. Davis did think very racially though (it would be strange if he didn't given his experiences). That does not mean he wa a racist though. Remember that many such comments Davis made also occured in the context of the civil rights movement era and before then when blacks didn't have civil rights. Remember while Davis' genius, wit, and intelligence are undeniable in the world of music, he could be a bit overly 'simplistic' when making comments about topics outside of his mastery. This goes for all of us of course, especially if we are frustrated. Davis received a lot of criticism from other black musicians for including Bill Evans in his band. Davis said something to the effect of "I don't care what color they are, as long as they can play". This doesn't mean he didn't notice a difference between how most black musicians played compared to white musicians at the time, but it's obvious that for him the auditory (music) trumped the visual (skin color). I'm not one of thos people that puts Davis on a pedestal in this area though and excuses everything he did--he certainly wasn't someone to model when it came to his social life, drug use (which had a great deal to do with all the negative things), and his treatment of others close to him.

But personally, I think this subject should just be left out of the page because in order for it to be in context and balanced out, it would need to be very long/yawn-inducing, and would therefore overshadow the much more significant aspects of his life that don't require as much explaining. If people are interested in the tabloid subjects there are several great biographies about Davis and the autobiography as well. What I find most fascinating about Davis' life is that for much of his life he was always pushing to change and grow musicially. He seemed to have a real fear of being stale and playing things he loved to play so much. There is so much to be learned from him in that regard. Siraj555 22:04, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Health

According to Ian Carr, MD's health problems just before retirement in 1976 were rheumatism, bursitis, and osteoarthritis which led to a hip replacement (which in turn had to be replaced a few years later). It's pretty clear MD was diabetic (Carr mentions it a few times), though possibly not before 1976. I can't find any reference to sickle cell disease, and I think it's unlikely but not impossible - MD's occasional physical collapses seem to have been due to pushing himself too hard. I'd say keep in the diabetes, scrub the sickle cell disease unless someone can provide evidence that he had it, or probably had it. --ajn (talk) 21:40, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

I've toned down the stuff about his health pre-retirement - I've just said "illegal drugs" because I'm not sure he took up heroin again (I don't have Carr's book with me now). The diabetes, and the stroke a few years before the one that killed him, need to go into the next section. It's been a while since I read Carr rather than flicking through it, but my recollection is that the post-retirement years were a heroic struggle against ill health. --ajn (talk) 09:32, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Add in info about Sickle Cell! It's in books about him and it's important that people know that he suffered from this very significant disease!

In the book "Miles and Me" Quincy Trope mentions Miles was on AZT, a well known AIDS medication, towards the end of his life.Leading us to believe Miles may have been HIV-positive. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.174.19.159 (talk) 04:25, 7 September 2007 (UTC) --

[edit] Mone Peterson???

At the age of nine, one of Davis's father's friends gave him his first trumpet, but he did not start learning to play seriously until the age of thirteen, when his father gave him a new trumpet and arranged lessons with local trumpeter Elwood Buchanan and, later, a man named Mone Peterson.

I've never heard of anyone by this name associated with Miles' past. Can we get a source for this information?

This is surely a joke. Mone Peterson is a regular contributor to the Jazz Corner Speakeasy discussion board. He says he did not insert his name in himself & was just as puzzled as anyone else to see himself appear in this entry. I assume this is some internet joke or dig at Mone or whatever. I've edited it out for now; only if someone can actually come up with a legitimate cite for a 2nd Mone Peterson should this be reinstated. ND 21:49, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bitches Brew & Sales

Someone inserted a reference to Bitches Brew as the "biggest-selling jazz record of all time". Is this actually true? How does it stack up against Kind of Blue, A Love Supreme, Headhunters,, Take Five, Heavy Weather, &c? -- I ask in part because I recall that in The Wire magazine when they had a feature on the album (this would have been in the 1990s--I no longer have backissues anymore, alas) the author was skeptical about claims of sales; apparently Columbia did get it massively stocked in record stores across the US, & that counts as sales.... but many copies were returned, which wasn't counted of course. (Similar shenanigans go on when bookstore chains buy the massive print runs of bestsellers, then months later tear off the covers & return them.) -- I deleted the unsupported claim for now & also undid the extensive vandalism to the page that occurred at the same time, but in any case would like to know a little more. ND 19:53, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Yeah bitches Brew is pretty rare these days too so that claim is definetly unsubstanshiated
I take it you're being sarcastic. I'm sure it sold & sells well for a jazz album; but I've yet to see evidence posted here that it is the biggest selling jazz album of all time. --ND 23:57, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Recent edits to the opening paragraph

Factually, Miles Davis was one of the most influential and innovative musicians of the 20th century. I see no reason why this should be labeled merely an opinion and removed as such like an editor had done {see diff here}. Opinions, please. FjghdK 18:46, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Hi. I'm the editor who removed the following three things. I thought my edit was pretty self-explanatory in the comment, but allow me to elaborate. Please keep in mind verifiability, since that's job #1 for anything we publish on WP. Verifiability comes before even truth, odd as that may seem.
  • Davis was "one of the most influential .. musicians of the 20th century"
  • Davis was "one of the most ... innovative musicians of the 20th century"
  • "He played on some of the important early bebop records"
These words are, by definition, subjective and POV. And when they are prefaced with "one of" and "some of", they become weasel words — they introduce bias without allowing the reader to decide if they're right or wrong or coming from a reliable source.
If we attribute these POVs to a notable person or publication then, of course, they can remain because our reader can then verify what we've written. Alternatively, we could focus on factual, falsifiable things such as "most records sold" or "longest career". --Ds13 18:58, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
This seems to me a case where a basically sound Wikipedia policy is being applied in excessively officious fashion. There is absolutely nothing controversial about Miles Davis's significance in 20th century music, or his influence within jazz & in the larger musical world. The statements are easily veriable from any source on jazz or contemporary music as a whole, & the list of accomplishments in the Wikipedia article itself goes a long way to making the use of the words self-explanatory. --ND 19:21, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
Hi. Please don't take offense at this, but looking at your profile, you're apparently an experienced jazz journalist and long-time jazz fan. So while Davis' status might be ingrained in you, please consider the jazz-ignorant reader who deserves the ability to confirm these claims at a recognized source. I don't see anything like this in the article, but surely some jazz publication or organization has recognized Davis with a "lifetime contribution" award or something to that effect that we can cite/quote right there in the intro? What's "self-explanatory" to you could use a quick cite for some of us to remove skepticism that the article was written by Davis fanatics. --Ds13 18:49, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
"Lifetime contribution award"? Feh. You could list a bundle of awards for Davis -- for heaven's sake he's even in the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame -- but this is like asking whether Shakespeare won any awards. -- "Self-explanatory" because the list of accomplishments in the main text of the article is enough to explain Davis's importance. --ND 03:00, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

I listen to jazz regularly these days but this is a fairly recent development -- within, say, the last 10 years. I'm hardly a knowledgable jazz fan; I'd be hard pressed to name 5 tunes that Miles made famous. My entire contrib to his article is to fix a typo. But even I know that the man was a giant. If he was not the pivotal figure in jazz during his lifetime, it was because he didn't die nearly as quickly as his lifestyle warranted; quite a few jazz greats came and

[edit] AIDS

I read before that he died of complications, relating to AIDS, which he got from using shared needles. If this is true, how come it's not mentioned in the article.--Richy 13:47, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

In the book "Miles and Me" Quincy Trope mentions Miles was on AZT, a well known AIDS medication, towards the end of his life.Leading us to believe Miles may have been HIV-positive.I do believe he was indeed HIV-Positive,however I havent found any other sources to confirm this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.174.19.159 (talk) 05:08, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Who cares, read the page on Talk:Julio_Cortázar and see what other people are saying. Peace. (Its Pytch.. Hon (talk) 00:03, 23 November 2007 (UTC))

[edit] Birth of the cool/early career

Hi, I'm no jazz expert but was surprised there's no explicit mention here either of his early recordings with Charlie Parker, or the Birth of the Cool sessions (and I'm sure other significant events from the same period). As it stands, the article seems to imply that his career didn't get going until the mid 50s. How about a short 'Early Career' section to precede the First great Quintet/Sextet part? (Sorry I can't be more helpful and draft something but i'm really not knowledgeable enough!)

[edit] Best-selling jazz album?

Different sections of this article identify both Kind of Blue and Bitches Brew as the best-selling jazz album of all time. They can't both be the best-selling jazz album. (Not to mention that there may be other albums which have outsold both Kind of Blue and Bitches Brew but which are disputed as to whether they are jazz albums.) --Metropolitan90 (talk) 07:27, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

It is Kind of Blue, though it's impossible to get exact figures. Go to the RIAA website & use the gold/platinum search engine. KOB was certified triple platinum in 2002, i.e. it had sold 3 million copies by then. Bitches Brew is only certified platinum, i.e. 1 million copies. -- I have yet to find any other jazz album on the site that's more than platinum (I tried Brubeck, Hancock, Coltrane, Getz/Gilberto, &c). --ND (talk) 15:34, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
Further thought: it's entirely possible both statements in the article are half-true, if misleading. BB certainly sold a lot when it first came out, & may even have outpaced KOB--but the latter has been a steady seller for decades now & has far outstripped BB over the years. -- I should note that in The Wire magazine's article on Bitches Brew in the 1990s the author suggested that the sales figures for the album were probably inflated--they counted sales to record shops but not returns. (But does RIAA not account for this?). -- In any case, it's clear that as of 2007 KOB is the champ. --ND (talk) 15:41, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cars

Something should be mentioned about Miles' love of his cars.. Ferrari 275 and Lamborghini Miura. He used them as an "out" when his music got too stressful. I would add it to the article but I don't remember the source and it will probably be deleted by the Wikipedia nazis —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.74.161.40 (talk) 21:47, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Miles Davis-Tutu (album cover).jpg

Image:Miles Davis-Tutu (album cover).jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 14:55, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Picture?

Might I suggest finding a free image or two to feature on the page? I shall have a look myself if I get the time.

84.9.123.100 (talk) 10:15, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] No acid jazz or jazz rap?

Why doesn't this article mention acid jazz or jazz rap genres? Doo Bop is a cornerstone record for both. Netrat_msk (talk) 22:53, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Fixed acid jazz. Didn't add jazz rap though, as this might be oppossed by some. Netrat_msk (talk) 14:42, 9 April 2008 (UTC)