Talk:Microtonal music

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Contents 1 Thelonious Monk 2 Definition of Microtonal 3 Black Flag 4 I'm looking for info on a 59 note bulgarian scale 5 What about jazz? 6 Microtonal software 7 My Vitriol 8 Triamu 9 History 10 original research 11 Kuhnau dates 12 Composer redlinks 13 Copy vio? 14 Debussy? 15 Indian Music revisited 16 1/4 comma meantone 17 distinction threshold 18 Montpelier Ms. letter notation 19 Cleaning up 20 slowly but surely still cleaning up 21 Reinstating the "other" definition of "microtonal"

[edit] Thelonious Monk

Didn't Thelonious Monk write in quarter-tones?

If he did, I'd love to know about it, because I'm a fan of both Monk and microtones. --Camembert

I think it's in the film Jazz on a Summer's Day that the voice-over (I think) says that Monk hits two notes simultaneously to symbolize the 1/4 tone in between. -- Tarquin

Nevertheless the piano does not have microtones. As a piano player, Monk did not "write in quartertones". In fact: what's more likely than quartertones is that Monk, like uncountable piano players, strikes two keys to suggest blue notes, which, while arguably microtonal when sung or played on instruments capable of inflecting pitch, are not quartertones. I could also argue that blue notes are NOT microtonal, at least not according to any model this article provides, because blue notes aren't of any precisely fixed pitch or interval at all - the very blueness is because of its unfixed nature. This article only talks about microtones being fixed degrees of non-equaltempered scales. I'd like to see how JOASD cited the quartertone claim, which is frankly contrary to what everybody learns in jazz studies. 198.49.180.40 18:04, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Definition of Microtonal

Do you think it might be wise to say that using more than 12 notes (i.e. 19, or 31 notes per octave) isn't necessarily microtonal? The reason for this is that the composer would be aiming to get close to the Just intervals. The rest of the notes are effectively 'scrapped' temparily, so it's not exactly 'microtonal' music (where all the notes are given more or less equal priority). Could anyone confirm this? -- Daniel

This article is biased toward "Just intervals" themselves being microtonal, so, if that's what these composers are aiming for, then that would make them microtonalists. At any rate I reject your thesis: why wouldn't they just use a just-tempered scale/instrument if that's what they're after? Furthermore 1/19 or 1/31 of an octave must necessarily be smaller than a semitone (1/12 of an octave, just, even or ) so again you cannot argue against the microtonality of such scales. 198.49.180.40 18:28, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

I know what you mean, but I think that even when people are using 19-eq (or whatever) to get close to just intervals, such music still tends to be called "microtonal" (maybe not by the composers of such music, but by the majority of people). My perception is that the word gets slapped on anything which isn't 12 tone equal temperament, no matter how that tuning is used. That makes the term more or less useless, of course, but still, I think that's how it is used. I may be wrong of course. --Camembert

I'd say that "microtonal music" is an academic term. I don't often see non-Western traditional music called microtonal. I also think just intonation music is increasingly being pulled out from the microtonal herd; microtonal music is a diagnosis of exclusion.jp2 01:40 Feb 23, 2003 (UTC)

You may be right. So what definition of "microtonal" would you give? --Camembert

scale_(music) currently reflects some of my bias: microtonal is based on western music and doesn't include stylistic inflection a la blue notes.jp2 02:19 Feb 23, 2003 (UTC)

I think pretty much any deliberate use of intervals outside of 12-TET qualifies as some sort of microtonality. The idea is that you are making distinctions finer than usual. As said above, 19tet allows subtly narrower thirds which sound purer, for instance, but even working with 5-TET would probably be called microtonal. The word is widely used like that. I don't think it's a great usage, but it's the one I've seen. It's a blanket word for "non-western tuning", or whatnot. Unfortunately, the word "micro" seems to suggest smaller intervals as a requirement, but this is not really reflected in its usage. (Just intonation is frequently referred to as microtonal, for instance... perhaps justifiably because it makes finer distinctions about harmony than ET?) - Rainwarrior 19:54, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

A microtone is a small interval, smaller than a semitone. Bach used semitones, but we don't call his music semitonal, or chromatic, or whatever. I compose extended JI, and the majority of intervals I use are significantly wider than a whole tone. Microtones crop up in the voice leading, but are not especially prevalent. People will say what people will say, but micro- means very small, and 969 cents is not very small. I am strongly against using a word inaccurately and calling it academic. That just makes academics less likely to take it seriously. Whole tones can be a variety of intervals, semitones can be a variety of intervals but are smaller than whole tones, and microtones are smaller yet. Why would you call a whole tone a microtone? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Badmuthahubbard (talk • contribs) 21:03, 2 February 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Black Flag

Can someone confirm the material on Black Flag? Can it be referenced to a reliable source? Thank you.

[edit] I'm looking for info on a 59 note bulgarian scale

This article doesn't mention it. Can some expert please fill in?

Perhaps you could tell us where you heard about it, and we could go from there. I've heard Bulgarian music, and seen Bulgarian instruments, but this is the first I've heard of a "59 note scale". 59 notes is kind of unwieldly, and I don't think it could properly be accomodated on their traditional instruments. Perhaps you misunderstood? (Or maybe this is a theoretical distinction I have not heard of.) - Rainwarrior 19:58, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What about jazz?

Would it make more sense to speak of the history of microtonal music in jazz? Jazz (and blues) musicians have rarely actually adhered to the even tempered 12-tone scale, though perhaps much of this wouldn't be considered microtonal if the notes are just bent/adjusted tones from non-microntonal scales/chords. It just seems odd to make this passing reference to the use of microtones in rock and neglect their greater prominence in jazz...

I'll say here what I wrote above: Blue or bent notes aren't microtones, according to the way this article describes microtonality (scales with intervals smaller than an eventempered semitone). In eventempered rock and jazz, a performer's tremolo moves the pitch of a scale degree (obviously changing the interval), but the scale degree still is of a fixed (meta) pitch. Sure, we can say that blue and bent notes probably are "more prevalent" in jazz than in rock, but, I'd not argue (without evidence) that microtonal scales, compositions and performances are more prevalent in jazz than in rock. Is this what you're arguing? 198.49.180.40 18:14, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

If something is written about microtonalism in jazz, then certainly Don Ellis should be included. His big band featured Ellis on quarter tone trumpet for some tunes. Also, Neil Haverstick plays some jazz in 19 tet, and possibly other tunings.209.155.42.138 00:20, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Microtonal software

I noticed some links to some microtonal music software. I would like to see my freeware program on this list (but I realize it might be inappropriate to add it myself).

• Intun (Win, freeware)

- Rainwarrior 19:43, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] My Vitriol

Tuning down a quarter step does not qualify as microtonal. The tuning is still 12 tone equal temperament, simply because you tune to a different standard than A440 does not qualify as microtonal. It is still quite normal tuning. - Rainwarrior 19:48, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

If you're an unaccompanied soloist, then you're quite right. But if you're playing in an ensembnle where everyone else's A is a quartertone off your A-half-flat, and this is a deliberate composed effect, then the piece is microtonal and your notes in combination with the other performers' make up a 24-tone scale. This article clearly describes such ensembles. 198.49.180.40 18:16, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Triamu

I have added the triamu (3mu) to the History section, in relation to Carillo's 1/8 semitone, since it is now a basic and recognized unit in the tuning of MIDI instruments. (Mu is an ancronymn of Midi unit.) Prof.rick 01:17, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

I figured I'd duplicate the comment I left for you on my talk page here, since it is relevant to the page:

Well, my opinion on the 3mu is that it is quite an obscure term, and your suggested google search only turns up one page that uses it in the context of tuning. That tonalsoft article, and your mention of it are the only mentions of it I have ever seen. Furthermore, I don't see how it relates to MIDI at all, since the MIDI pitch bend is a 14-bit number usually distributed over 4 semitones, giving some 4096 divisions of the semitone. I don't know where this business of 8 comes from.

I removed the mention of 3MU from the history section since it is not of historical significance. If you can explain how it is notable, maybe there's a place for it elsewhere in the article, but to my knowledge no MIDI hardware maker has any kind of 3MU specification (I'd be glad to be proven wrong). - Rainwarrior 04:49, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] History

This section is oddly sparse. Right now it reads like a mini bio of Carrillo. Why don't we mention Aristoxenus, Ptolemy, Vincenzo Galilei, Johannes Kepler, Giuseppe Tartini, Christiaan Huygens, Marin Mersenne, Nicholas Mercator, Charles Ives, Harry Partch, et cetera et cetera (this very article has a ton of links to bio pages)?? I think we should fill this out a lot more, and we don't need to have so much Carrillo in there, that stuff is covered on his own bio page. What we need is an overview of who did what, an overview of the development. We don't need biographies of these people, we need to discuss how they fit in to the ongoing progress of microtonal music. If I ever get the time, I'll write this, but right now I've got a lot of other things on my to-do list, so this is just a suggestion, in case anyone wants to step up and do it. - Rainwarrior 04:43, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] original research

This article seems to have alot of original research. I noticed in several places wording such as "therefore" and "if we define...".

Also the phrase "severe bias" when referring to this article isn't appropriate. The article should be fixed to remove the bias or explain that it is the common usage of a group of people and that other groups use some other term.-Crunchy Numbers 16:42, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Also there is lots of history and discussion of controversy and terminolgy but its hard to find the substance. I was looking for this article after taking a doumbek class yesterday where the instructor played Arabic music on the spike fiddle while we accompanied. She explained a little about the scale the music was in that included microtones. I was hoping to find something about the scale so I could try it on guitar and other instruments like thumb piano.

Wouldn't it be a good idea to provide at the top definitions and examples of the most common usage of microtones in Arabic and Indian music and push all the controversy to the bottom? If there is another article with the scales listed then sorry about this.-Crunchy Numbers 16:50, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

I am unable to find any mention or support in any text or dictionary for a great deal of this article. The article concentrates on the idea of equating "microtonal" with "xenharmonic", or "sounding different from Western music". Aside from being offensively Eurocentric, the term "xenharmonic" doesn't seem to be in any published music dictionary, either. If anyone knows of a reference, please post. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Frank Zamjatin (talk • contribs) 05:14, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Agreed that this article is woefully under-referenced. For a published dictionary that explains the term "xenharmonic", see John Chalmers and Brian McLaren, "Darreg, Ivor", The New Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians, ed. S. Sadie and J. Tyrrell (London: Macmillan, 2001): "He coined the term ‘xenharmonic’ in 1963 to describe ‘music which sounds unlike that composed in the familiar 12-tone equal temperament’." See also the Wikipedia article Ivor Darreg, which is linked in the present article. Although a few people besides Darreg have used the word, particularly in articles published in the journal Xenharmonikôn (which Darreg founded), it is not so widely recognized a term as the present wording of this Wikipedia article suggests. On the other hand, I do not see how it is "offensively Eurocentric" to point out that most music in the recent (say, 200 years) European past ordinarily assumes this tuning. This is simply a fact.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 21:35, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

What is offensive is calling that which is "different from European" strange or foreign. This puts Western Europe at the "center", and assumes it as the "norm". How can that NOT be an offesive idea? I realize that the term was not intended to be taken that way, rather the opposite, Darreg clearly being a xenophile here. Nevertheless... it is the year 2008, or should I say 1429 AH? :-) At any rate, I simply replaced the nonsensical and unreferenced equation of "microtonal" with "xenharmonic", previously found in the definition, with "see xenharmonic". One reason the claim that another definition of "microtonal" is "xenharmonic" is silly, is the fact (noted in the Wiki, don't know by whom or when) that a great deal of "xenharmonic" music is, to use another Darreg neologism, "macrotonal", a fine term for great big scale steps rather than little tiny ones.

[edit] Kuhnau dates

He died in 1722. So he can't have written any pieces in the 1730's ... check dates, please. --Tdent 19:57, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Composer redlinks

What is the point of the redlinks to composers? Do we have some source that asserts their notability? (And if we do, why not start a stub at least?) A name and a birth-year isn't useful information, and how do we know the difference between a redlink that is vanity and one that is not? - Rainwarrior 08:42, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Hello Rainwarrior

I understand your problem, but let me explain my point of view first. Then we may see if we can find some agreement.

Why keeping redlinks of composers you seem to doubt the significance?

Of course Redlinks names by themselves are useless…I don’t deny that. But who said I (or anyone else) wanted to keep them red forever?

Why don’t I create a page about them ?

Well, who told you I wasn’t planning it. I was indeed! Do you know who filled the redlinks of composers such as Pascale Criton or Jean-Etienne Marie lately? Me…(btw anyone that can correct my English in those articles is welcome)

So I consider these redlinks are temporally. And they will be filled in time. But I do it when I can.

I really was planning to fill all these red links. I don’t know all of these names but I intended to make some research about them.

As for names such as Matther, Stahnke or Mandelbaum (especially these ones) I can assure you, they are important names. And I have to add Alain Bancquart and Jack Beherens as well.

No offence but I am surprised -if you’re into microtonal music and you’re Canadian- that you never heard of Bruce Matther who is by far one of the most important Canadian microtonal composers along with his disciple Jack Behrens. Because here in Europe these guys are regarded as important composers in the microtonal circle.

Moreover Matther was the disciple of microtonal Pioneer Ivan Wyschnegradsky and he writes music in direct continuation of Wyschnegradsky.

Greetings

Frédérick Duhautpas 12:35, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Btw concerning the link Cris Forster, I noticed there was a Wiki page dedicated to him that has been removed for some reasons...

Frédérick Duhautpas 12:39, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm glad that you're working on filling in missing pages. Can I ask why you think a redlink should be up before the article? Some of these links have been here for months. If the article comes first, notability doesn't become an issue, and there will be no problems with vanity redlinks.

Actually, I have heard of Bruce Mather, but not specifically as a microtonalist. My removal of these redlinks isn't based on whether I've heard of them, or whether I think they are important. I removed them because their notability has yet not been asserted anywhere on Wikipedia. There are cases where redlinks are quite appropriate, such as in the body of a text that indicates its importance, but in a place like this where it's just a list, I don't think they are.

(And as for the Cris Forster page, it existed briefly, twice, and then was deleted. The reason the first time was that Cris himself wrote the page, and the second time I believe it was because of the assumption of sockpuppetry involved in its recreation. Creating that page a third time is not out of the question, though.)

- Rainwarrior 18:49, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Copy vio?

There is a large section of another text inserted at the beginning of the terminology section, with a link to it's source. I can't find any indication that the author of the text gave permission to use it, but it seems to have survived in the article for quite a while. Does anyone know the status of this?

Even if this isn't copyvio, it definately doesn't fit with the style of the rest of the article, and needs some rewriting. --Starwed 12:52, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I'm removing that section, since no one has defended it. If it's actually included with appropriate permissions, please tidy it up a bit before putting it back in. ^_^ --Starwed 04:45, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Debussy?

Debussy was not a microtonal composer. I think one mention of him is worth making, to distinguish non-diatonic music from microtonality, but whoever wrote the terminology section has some kind of fixation in the matter. Giamberardino 16:21, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

The whole definition as muddled. I have never seen quarter tones excluded from microtonality anywhere else. It's definitely used to mean "non 12-TET" quite frequently, but the phrase "conventional Western music" should not be used as a synonym for 12-TET. I would not include Debussy as a microtonalist since his pitches were chosen directly from standard tuning (as well, he is hardly ever restricted to just 6 pitches; it practice he usually uses a set of 6 for a short passage then switches, or uses it for a melody with accompaniment that takes whatever harmony is appropriate, etc.). We might as well also call Bach a microtonalist because of his frequent obsession with diminished seventh chords (we could very well call Bach a microtonalist for other reasons though). Other comments like "constant restlessness of the dominant seventh" are vague and overly general, not useful at all. This terminology section needs a rewrite from scratch. - Rainwarrior 16:38, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Indian Music revisited

I'd like to bring in that the relevant info on Indian music is so sparse and put in a blind corner, that no enlightenment of the subject can be found here. It seems hardly relevant. And that while these very rich musical traditions offer interesting observations about 'microtonality'. Since in Indian Classical Music (ICM) a wide variety of scales are in use, in which the 6 mutable tones (fifth/Pa is basically fixed) can have very distinct and characteristic positions it would already qualify as 'microtonal'. But there is much more to it than just having a lot variant scales. To sum up some characteristics:

- tuning of string instruments is done to a level of microtonal precision. Indian string instruments have a sound particularly rich in harmonics, and tuning is done on a high resolution level of harmonic resonance. Even in tuning the four-string tanpura the 4th/Ma can have variant degrees for different ragas. Very often pure fifth relations can be found in the notes used: if the second tone/Re is particularly low, the flattened 6th is also in a very low position to pure-parallel (sound as a 3rd, 6th,12th harmonic of the lower tone. The more 5th-parallels there are in a scale, the more resonant and consonant it will be. Of course, other ragas exist in which this consonance is lacking, which is a significant way of expressing particular moods of anxiety.

- microtonal ornamentation can be found on different levels. One is 'timbre-modulation' and is available mostly to vocalists, the other is a continuous fluent, legato tonal movement, called 'meend'. Meend is any fluent movement from one pitch to an other - but don't think sleezy glissando's here - it is an exact movement between the fixed pitches and there is a very extensive vocabulary for it for every raga. To be more precise, as it is not generally found in recent western music, it is a very specific and controlled way of moving around between the notes. For easy comparison: it is exactly what a keyboard-instrument can not do - it can only render block-print. Compare that to Baroque handwriting with many elegant slurs and curls - a whealth of diversity opens up! Indian music is like a calligraphy of continuously modulated sound. Calligraphers and vocalists practice years and years on getting the shapes of their curls and slurs just right. Interestingly, a parallel that presents itself from Western culture is 'Gregorian Chant' as we know it from 10th century manuscripts which use a graphic system of neumes (sign of the hand) which also makes use of precisely shaped 'meends' comprising 2,3 or many notes.

If this kind of information is to be found anywhere, it should be here on WIKI. Says I, of course... what say you? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Martin spaink (talk • contribs) 22:39, August 20, 2007 (UTC).

[edit] 1/4 comma meantone

1/4 comma meantone is NOT identical with 31 equal, it only comes CLOSE. strictly speaking: it uses the interval 5/4, which 31 equal does NOT! huygens took 1/4 comma meantone as a starting point for his suggested 31 equal, but his mathematics are substantially different. we must go for precision in this article: my suggestion.Kmbemb 23:02, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] distinction threshold

does anyone know the minimum difference in pitch able to be detected by a human? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.177.164.231 (talk) 21:35, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

No. There are many tests, but they are tests, not real-life playing and listening situations, so the best anyone could honestly claim would be something like "within x cents in such and such tests". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Frank Zamjatin (talk • contribs) 05:08, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Montpelier Ms. letter notation

The graf

As Joel Mandelbaum has pointed out in his PhD thesis "Multiple Division Of the Octave and the Tonal Resources of the 19 Tone Temperament" (1960), scholarship done on the Montpellier Codex suggests that it records microtonal tunings, probably the Greek enharmonic. Thus the evidence appears to show that microtonal tunings survived and were commonly used late into the medieval period.

has two problems, IMO.

• The first is procedural: one source does not make a "Thus...common."

• The second is, in fact, that there are any number of interpretations of the figures dispersed withing the letter notation of the mss. I will add that information soon.

Best, --Shlishke (talk) 04:05, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Cleaning up

"Xenharmonic" is a related term, not an alternative definition of "microtonal". If there are any references (textbooks, dictionaries, peer-reviewed journals) supporting this idea, they need to be listed. Otherwise, all definitions of and speculations as to what is and what is not "xenharmonic" need to be in the "xeharmonic" wiki, not in the "microtonal" wiki.

In addition, microtonalities which are an essential part of various musical traditions around the world need to be mentioned, by someone qualified to do so. The Indian concept of "meend" is an example. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Frank Zamjatin (talk • contribs) 09:53, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] slowly but surely still cleaning up

In answer to Jerome Kohl's question "Has any previous editor of this article actually *read* Aristoxenos", the answer is, at least one has read enough, and enough about, to know that this statement: "Of the tuning of ancient Greek music we have a comprehensive record, courtesy of Aristoxenos' surviving texts on music." needs to be removed.

The bit about ancient Greek music has now been stripped down to the basics that can be found in any dictionary or text on the subject. It needs to be expanded, but not in a "personal essay" manner. Wikipedia is not the place to continue the time-honored but nonetheless bogus tradition of justifying or otherwise shining a glamorous light on one's own theories by interpreting the scant hard evidence on ancient Greek music to taste in order to create an illusion of royal lineage.

Took out the spam in the Electronica section, as well as the request for a citation on the general comment about alternative tunings and electronica. The link to Jim Aikin's article I added should hopefully be enough (the statement as it now stands would hardly be challenged by anyone familiar with the field). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Frank Zamjatin (talk • contribs) 11:51, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/208.65.189.188

http://nonoctave.com/forum/messages/762.html?n=1

- Mireut (talk) 12:56, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Reinstating the "other" definition of "microtonal"

I put the secondary definition of "microtonal" back in, but without directly equating "microtonal" with "xenharmonic". Please see The New Grove 1st ed. (ISBN 1-56159-174-2) vol.12 p. 279 on microtonal music. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Frank Zamjatin (talk • contribs) 09:53, 17 April 2008 (UTC)