Talk:Michael Jordan

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[edit] Terry Francona?

Is it really necessary that this, "(his manager was current Red Sox manager Terry Francona, who has won 2 World Championships). [43]" be in this article? Even though it is cited, it doesn't seem to fit in with the section. Comments? Burner0718 (talk) 20:18, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

No, it does not belong in the article. It seems the majority of us agree that it should not be included, it's completely trivial and adds nothing to the article. Zodiiak (talk) 04:51, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] FACTS about opinion

I believe I am right in stating that, according to Wikipedia's policy, facts about a given opinion are allowable. In the instance of stating that Michael Jordan is "widely considered the greatest...", that is a fact of opinion. It is encyclopedic - and it would in fact be unencyclopedic to state it any other way because it would grossly understate the given person's importance to the game of basketball. For example, look at Wayne Gretzky's description in this very website. Gretzky is cited as the greatest player by the Official NHL Encyclopedia just as Jordan is cited (or should I say citable?) as the greatest player by the Official NBA Encyclopedia... I don't see how there is even a debate over this? Jordan even has an entire chapter in the NBA encyclopedia. The only other player to receive that recognition is George Mikan, and that is for Mikan's revolutionary changes to the game.

A phrasing of "widely considered one of the greatest" could imply any of the greatest players... but Michael Jordan isn't considered "one of the greatest"... he's considered "the greatest", and that fact of opinion only seems to gain strength as time passes.

For example, here is a list of select sports and news authorities that have echoed this sentiment.

  • National Basketball Association (the ultimate authority...)
  • ESPN (the sports authority...)
  • The Associated Press
  • SLAM magazine
  • The [Summer] Olympic Committee
  • The New York Times
  • The Boston Globe
  • USA Today —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.31.252.30 (talk) 22:49, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
Yes you draw an appreciable distinction but unfortunately this discussion has been had before and there was strong resistance to using "the greatest" (just scroll up, you'd see the dissent there). Since you realise that the Gretsky article attributes the source of the opinion, if you do wish to change the phrasing, it should be a qualified statement, i.e. attributing the source of the opinion. And reference it properly. But, I can't guarantee it'd stand. Chensiyuan (talk) 23:35, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
If it would stand for Gretzky, there is no reason to think it would not for Jordan. It also agrees with all Wikipedia policies, doesn't it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.31.252.30 (talk) 00:26, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
I know people have been reverting this user, but his reference does basically support the claim he is making. Zagalejo^^^ 05:04, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
I still think it should be a specific attribution. Merely saying "widely considered" without saying by whom recreates the same problems. If it is specifically stated that it is NBA's view that he is the GOAT, I think that sort of statement is less controversial, and clearer. Flooding the refs with a variety of sources isn't going to corroborate the claim of "widely considered" either, because it will still be difficult to pin down on a number. Note that my comments do not represent a personal or wikipolicy-rooted endorsement of saying MJ is the GOAT. Chensiyuan (talk) 08:13, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
There are also sources like the ones we already cite in the Legacy section. Zagalejo^^^ 17:45, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
If a secondary source is to be listed, I would assume that ESPN's page listing him as the #1 athlete of all time would be best, since that is such an outright claim to GOAT... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.31.252.30 (talk) 05:34, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

If thousands of professional journalists, millions and millions of fans in thousands upon thousands of polls aren't enough to convince the moderators of Wikipedia that the general consensus of both the professional basketball community (Hell, even the APBR have made it undisputed and they're essentially the God's of statistical breakdown) and the general make up of our communities consider Michael Jordan the greatest player of all time... even despite the OFFICIAL WEBSITE OF THE NBA "By *ACCLAMATION* Michael Jordan is the greatest player ever"... then there's an obvious bias standpoint here.

This is absolutely ridiculous. Sorry. It's irrational, illogical and ultimately a shame to the validity of this website.

- Jan 18, '08. Ryan. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.167.206.51 (talk) 12:09, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

That didn't add anything to any of the arguments, unfortunately. Ultimately, the reader of a WP article has to know re: opinions -- (1) who said so; (2) proof of such a statement. Any other form of rhetoric detracts from the core policies of WP. I don't agree with the "core policies" all the time, but any different it'd be another encyclopedia, not WP. Chensiyuan (talk) 15:07, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
The argument seems to have been presented and proven already. There is no debating a fact of opinion... he is considered the greatest by virtually every expert source there is, nevermind the top authorities like the NBA, the AP, ESPN. "widely" would imply around 60% anyhow... the percentage of sources that actually consider him the greatest is way above 60%, probably in the 90 percentiles. The official authority on the issue, the NBA, even credits him as the greatest ever. They do not use this kind of description when referring to any other player. The NBA calls other greats "stars" or "legendary" or "dominant", they aren't called "the greatest". Stating or sourcing this is NPOV.--129.105.4.169 (talk) 17:17, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Refs needed

I slapped a couple of fact tags in the Im Back and First three peat sections. Would try to find something... Chensiyuan (talk) 16:16, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

All good now, seems Aaron Bowen has added the refs already. Chensiyuan (talk) 01:00, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Second sentence misrepresents source

" Proclaimed by the National Basketball Association (NBA) as the "greatest player of all time" "

Really? The source says: "By acclamation, Michael Jordan is the greatest basketball player of all time." (my emphasis). That's not the NBA declaring anything, all they've said there is: "Most people think Michael Jordan is the greatest basketball player of all time"... which is true, because most people do.

So... yeah. The second sentence is wrong to declare that the NBA have "proclaimed" him the greatest basketball player of all time. All they've done is recognise that a lot of people think he's the greatest basketball player of all time. It's an opinion I share, but I don't think misrepresenting the source is a great idea.(86.1.172.34 (talk) 04:21, 21 February 2008 (UTC))

Won't object to modifying the sentence. Chensiyuan (talk) 00:57, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
How about "Recognized by the National Basketball Association..." ? Josh Dunkelman (talk) 17:04, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
Not sure if it'll stick, but I've made a change using that. I think the acclamation part needs to be there also to fix the problem. --Onorem♠Dil 17:25, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
I support this change Chris! ct 17:43, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
It might even be better to change it to "Recognized on his profile at nba.com as... " --Onorem♠Dil 18:27, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Let's stop pushing the POV policy on this page. I think what I just put up there is most encyclopedic. Any type of statement where we push the fact that he is the "greatest of all time" is highly unencyclopedic POV. I think most people would be OK with "Widely considered one of the greatest players of all time" Before you head off to hit the edit button plz pay close to attention to the operative word in that sentence - *ONE*

He is not by stats, championships or any other measurable statistic the "greatest of all time" He is one of the greatest of all time for sure and if that is all that is stated I think everyone will be happy. Otherwise we can quote the "by acclaim" line from the NBA site and leave it at that. The line I just changed was wrong grammatically as well which is really unacceptable. Please look at the explanation of the word "acclaim" above or consult a dictionary before considering editing that sentence above. --KK5000 4:57 AM, 3 April, 2008 (EDT) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kk5000 (talk • contribs) 08:57, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Need Jordan's Olympic medal record

The main page is close to perfect, and yet it is missing one obvious piece, his medal record in the Olympics. See Bill Russell for an example. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Illadelph halflife (talk • contribs) 18:49, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

I see that it's included separately now. But shouldn't the medal record be under the infobox? It seems to be that way for all other basketball players... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Illadelph halflife (talk • contribs) 18:53, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Basketball signed by Jordan given to Kim Jong-Il

I think it's noteworthy (and speaks to the fact that Jordan is such a huge figure / personality / icon internationally) that when Sec. Albright visited reclusive North Korean leader Kim Jong-Il, one item she brought as an olive branch was basketball signed by Jordan. Someone with editing privileges should add this, I think.

Source: http://www.guardian.co.uk/quiz/questions/0,,2014129,00.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.207.234.250 (talk) 00:38, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Error, Place of Birth/Home State

IIRC, Jordan was born in New York City (Brooklyn, or Bronx...can't remember), not North Carolina. So, stating that North Carolina is his "home state" is probably not accurate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by MrTortFeasor33 (talk • contribs) 05:25, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Birth Place and Hometown are two different things. A Birth place solely generally represents where a person was born, whereas a 'hometown' generally represents where a person was raised. However I guess it would not hurt to clarify the statement. --  ShadowJester07  ►Talk  07:02, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] 1991 Eastern Conference Finals vs. the Detroit Pistons

"In an unusual ending to the fourth and final game, Isiah Thomas led the Pistons off the court when there was still time remaining on the clock, choosing to forfeit the game instead of shaking hands with the Bulls."

this game was not forfeit, it ended in regulation and the pistons players walked off as time expired. a minor thing, but it should be stated correctly. Mister chi (talk) 04:35, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't think the final 7.9 seconds were ever officially played, but yeah, the game wasn't counted as a forfeit, as far as I can tell. I reworded that section of the article. Zagalejo^^^ 05:07, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Michael Jordan No longer holds the record for most finals wins.

Somewhere under the second three peat heading in mentions Jordan having the record with six final wins, however now the holder is Robert Horry with seven. I don't know how to cite properly, or I would do it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.11.197.204 (talk) 05:57, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Not sure if someone removed it or not, but I haven't seen it in the article. It says he has the record for most finals MVP, which is true. Zodiiak (talk) 19:37, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
Doesn't Bill Russell have eleven.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 14:00, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Link Update

The link for "Bad Boys" under the "Mid-career: Pistons roadblock" section should be updated to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detroit_Pistons#1980s:_The_Bad_Boys_Era Esaba (talk) 07:47, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

I just updated the link. Good catch on your part. Giants2008 (talk) 23:34, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Template collapsing

I don't like the way all the succession boxes and navigation templates are collapsed under a misleadingly-titled box.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 13:58, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

How would you like them presented? The templates and boxes take up a lot of space, since there are so many of them. This is a common issue for athletes like Jordan who have won a lot of awards and championships. I like the way it is now. The boxes are there if the reader is interested, and they don't get in the way. I do agree with you on the title, though, as they aren't really links. Would "Succession boxes and navigation templates" be any better? Giants2008 (talk) 15:03, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
I didn't see a parameter for changing the title of the template. Does anyone know if this is possible? Giants2008 (talk) 17:34, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Player Profile Mistake

In the Player Profile, it suggests that Hakeem Olajuwon is the only player in NBA history to win the MVP and Defensive Player of the Year awards in the same season. This is untrue; Michael Jordan also did so in 1988. This must be rectified immediately.

Actually, it says that "Olajuwon also won both during the same season". Zagalejo^^^ 16:10, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
It didn't explicitly say that Jordan won both in a season, so I understand the confusion. I re-worded the text slightly to make clear that Olajuwon was the second player to earn both awards in the same season. Giants2008 (talk) 03:17, 3 June 2008 (UTC)