Talk:Mediterranean Sea/Archive 1

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Archive This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Contents

Part of the Atlantic?

Personally I think it's kind of strange to consider the Mediterranean as part of the Atlantic. I have never heard this view before, and following the logic that it is connected to the Atlantic, one could also say that the black sea is part of the Atlantic, since it is connected to the Mediterranean (and thus to the Atlantic) via the Bosphorus and the Sea of Marmara. Secondly, I am raising this issue hear because I noticed there seems to be some inconsistency with other articles. For instance, the Wiki article on the Strait of Gibraltar mentions that "The Strait of Gibraltar is the strait that separates the Atlantic Ocean from the Mediterranean Sea. So I was just wondering which one is true. :) (RagingR2 22:47, 2 April 2006 (UTC))

of course that the Mediterranean is part of the Atlantic ocean the same that the black sea, Baltic sea, Caribbean sea ...--83.38.57.80 22:23, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Obsolete map

The map on this page is obsolete. It features Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and Soviet Union, both of which dissolved in the early 1990s. --Romanm 19:25, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I noticed this yesterday and fixed it :) --Joy [shallot] 15:10, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Mediterranean flood

Some sources say that the current Mediterranean sea was created 5-8 million years ago when the natural dam at Gibraltar was breached. See fx flood. That should be mentioned in this article. Does anyone have any good links about that subject? Thue 16:25, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Fixed - I reworded that paragraph completely with info from the book Noah's Flood. andy 17:26, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Middle earth

An anonymous contributor added the following:

Europe was probably formerly called Mediterranea (Middle Earth) before the Romans conquered it, and renamed it Europe after the goddess Europa. The Mediterranean Sea was named after the land next to it, as seas often are.

I am not aware of the basis for this, but please reinstate if you can find some support for it . -- ALoan (Talk) 22:55, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)

The Romans did not give the name "Europe" to the continent, which was never called Mediterranea. "Europa" is a Greek toponym derived ultimately from a Semitic root word -ereb- meaning "west," among other things.--Polylerus 22:13, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

The Mediterranean is middle of the Earth, the sea at the center of the land, as the ancient Romans knew it. M dorothy 05:44, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Mare Nostrum

Hi. There is no explanation in the article as to why the Romans called the Mediterranean "Mare Nostrum" (Our Sea). The name was a reference to the fact that at that point in history Rome ruled all the land bordering the sea. Obviously, the name only came into being once such a conquest was achieved (in the 2nd century A.D., if I'm not mistaken). I'm uncertain whether this should be added to this article or if the article "Mare Nostrum", which is currently a redirect to this article, should be made into a main article concerning this very specific name given to the Mediterranean. Any thoughts? Regards, Redux 16:41, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Bizarre POV?

Does it strike anyone else as somewhat eccentric for an encyclopedia article to assert

The perfect little Sea that geology gave Western history is, in many ways, in great jeopardy.

...? Definitions of what perfection constitutes for a sea, and in what ways human tinkering represents jeopardy to it, seem to require reifying a Sea as an entity with inherent aesthetic or moral properties. Or is it just me? Adhib 15:45, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Someone should construct an ecology section that is more specific about our careless treatment of the sea, the comment has very little to do with geology. Geological processes will continue in one form or another no matter what we do to the Mediterranean Sea. --Csnewton 15:53, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

Hebrew

The use of Hebrew letters in an English text strikes me as unconventional. I believe that words in non-English alphabets should only ever be used parenthetically. There is no way for an English speaker who doesn't read the Hebrew alphabet to read this sentence. Bathrobe

A warning about Roylee edits

Please read Roylee edits with a critical stance. Much of what he contributes to articles constitutes individual research or POV statements. I'd suggest reading his user talk page and specifically al the deletions he has made from his user talk page. Much of his work and actions draws heavy criticism from the Wiki community. --Csnewton 16:07, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

West Africa Accessed the Mediterranean Superhighway

FIRST: Read Advanced Prehistoric Ships.

SECOND: Read History of Suez Canal.

THIRD: Read History of North Africa.

Originally, much of North Africa was inhabited by black Africans, including Upper Egypt, as demonstrated by Saharan rock art throughout the region; however, this does not appear to have been the case in the Maghreb and Lower Egypt, which were inhabited by white Africans speaking Afro-Asiatic languages. Following the desiccation of the Sahara, most black Africans migrated South into East and West Africa.
Clearly, the colorful map posted at Afro-Asiatic languages shows the dwindling effect the Roman Empire had on Nile-Saharan languages.

FOURTH: The Mende peoples apparently were attracted to the Sahara Desert (ecoregion) because of climatic similarities with the Sudan. See Deserts and xeric shrublands: Palearctic ecozone, bottom of page.

History of ancient Egypt shows a possible link between ancient Egypt and the Mende-peoples.

FIFTH: Assuming Phoenicians were of a non-African race (my personal experiences have shown that many non-Africans today [especially Britons] prefer to believe this), 2500 years is insufficient to account for the huge Phoenician contribution to the Saharan gene pool. See PubMed reference posted at Sahara: History.

Why? Because the Greeks and Phoenicians both occupied the same region beginning around the same time. But there is no indication of a Greek contribution to the gene pool. Apparently, either Phoenician-Saharan intermarriage persisted over that time interval at an exceptionally higher than normal rate or the Phoenician presence in the region is far older than recorded history suggests ... or both.
In which case the consequences are that either the Phoenicians were of an African race or the Phoenicians were the West African Saharan shipbuilders credited with our earliest indications of shipbuilding ... or both.

SIXTH: Read North Africa: History. The prehistoric Moroccans and Algerians seem to have been far ahead of the rest of the world in terms of fashioning hand items such as figurines and tools.

SEVENTH: Nome (Egypt): Why are harpoons mentioned there? Harpoons were prevalent in West Africa as early as 3000 BC. See History of West Africa. So, did ancient whales venture into the Mediterranean Sea for Egyptian capture? Or was something else going on -- for example, seafaring ships between Egypt and West Africa?

Motor and Engine Technology is Older than this Timeline Indicates may be appropriate to reference here.

CONCLUSION: The Trans-Saharan trade's very existence establishes that there was interest in trading. So, why do you assume that ancient Egypt was not trading with West Africa when a careful analysis of all the above evidence indicates otherwise?

Happy Reading!!-- Roylee

Mediterranean

Currently Mediterranean redirects to this page. A lot of the pages that use the word use it in the sense of the lands surrounding the Mediterranean Sea, not the sea itself (e.g. plant and animal distributions). Seems to me it ought to be a separate page, discussing the similar biogeography, climate, etc., of the southern fringes of Europe and the north coast of Africa. Anyone care to get it going? - MPF 15:23, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I think it's a wonderful idea to have Mediterranean become a separate article from this one. Go for it! --Gramaic 08:10, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Check out Mediterranean Basin; it is a commonly used term for the Mediterranean-climate and Mediterranean-vegetation regions surrounding the sea, and I think the article I started may be what you have in mind. Tom Radulovich 20:57, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

There is another wiki article with almost the same title. Mediterranean sea (small letter 's') is about seas that can be classified as being 'Mediterranean', whereas this article (Mediterranean Sea) has a capital letter 'S'. I propose that the lesser used one (the one about the sea type) should be renamed, perhaps to 'Mediterranean (oceanographic term)'. It's particularly confusing in the Seas list. --Mutor 23:18, 05 Jul 2005 (UTC)

  • It appears from this discussion that there are several articles that can reasonably compete with the Sea for the "Mediterranean" label. I recommend creating a disambiguation page. Please post objections or suggestions here before 2006, 28 March, when I will create the disambiguation page (or not, depending on consensus). Thanks, Kevin/Last1in 18:35, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Romania, Bulgaria and Portugal

I removed this sentence: "Other countries that don't border the Mediterranean, such as Portugal and parts of Bulgaria and Romania, are technically Mediterranean in their climate, fauna and flora."

Beside the fact that it is not true, it hasn't been backed up by any evidence. I'm generally not a person to go hunting for evidence, so I'm not going to ask for a reference or source, just an explanation as to why it was included. I mean, saying that BG and RO's climate are "technically Mediterranean" is going too far! Maybe they have a semi-Mediterranean climate, in the generic sense, in some parts of the country, but that doesn't mean that we can classify them as "Mediterranean climates", which they surely are not. You said "parts of BG and RO" - yes, I understand that, but even these climates aren't classified as "Mediterranean", only "semi-Mediterranean".

Here's an excerpt from [1]:

"Because of its position on the southeastern portion of the European continent, Romania has a climate that is transitional between temperate and continental. Climatic conditions are somewhat modified by the country's varied relief. The Carpathians serve as a barrier to Atlantic air masses, restricting their oceanic influences to the west and center of the country, where they make for milder winters and heavier rainfall. The mountains also block the continental influences of the vast plain to the north in the Soviet Union, which bring frosty winters and less rain to the south and southeast. In the extreme southeast, Mediterranean influences offer a milder, maritime climate. The average annual temperature is 11°C in the south and 8°C in the north. In Bucharest, the temperature ranges from -29°C in January to 29°C in July, with average temperatures of -3°C in January and 23°C in July. Rainfall, although adequate throughout the country, decreases from west to east and from mountains to plains. Some mountainous areas receive more than 1,010 millimeters of precipitation each year. Annual precipitation averages about 635 millimeters in central Transylvania, 521 millimeters at Iasi in Moldavia, and only 381 millimeters at Constanta on the Black Sea."

Thanks, Ronline 9 July 2005 10:57 (UTC) (note my message also on Template talk:Mediterranean).

I agree that Romania is a stretch. But southernmost Bulgaria and most of Portugal are Mediterranean in their climate and vegetation. Tom Radulovich 21:03, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

Well I for one would contend that there is a substantial difference between listing Portugal as "one of the Mediterranean countries", and on the other hand terming various sections of the earth as "technically Mediterranean in their climate, fauna and flora". With this definition one should also include San Marino. I'm not certain about the "flora and fauna" part, but by any account Mediterranean climatic zones strech across sections of all continents (bar the freezing one). PS: This is my first attempt at participating in an editing talk. PPS: I am a student of Geography.

Deletion of the subracial type

That concept belongs to 19th century theories already obsolete, so I am deleting it. If someone is interested in population genetics they could read this: Human Y-chromosome DNA haplogroups HCC

Libya

I think it should be mentioned that Libya has the longest coastline of the Mediterranean nations

Names for the sea in different languages (should be removed?)

Although I personally interest myself for foreign language, I find the listings of Mediterranean Sea in all other languages inappropriate for Wikipedia. See Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not a dictionary. One strives in other ways to make this article globally relevant, but real context is more important than a translation in any other language. The names are unsourced and very difficult to verify. I noticed that a known vandal today added a questionable Persian term. If no-one objects, I will remove the terms for Mediterranean Sea in languages other than English. - GilliamJF 18:30, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Geography errors or missing?

I had to add Albania as a subdivision of Mediterranean Sea for smaller seas. Apparently someone didn't know or forgot that Albania has Adriatic Sea and Ionian Sea. Also Slovenia was missing and I added it. So much for geography!!! Did add also the Strait of Otranto which is between Albania and Italy - Illuminati 02:40, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Recent vandalism

Someone unregistered has recently been trying to add Serbia to the list of countries at he Mediterranean sea, even though it is a land-locked country; and deleting a Montenegrin language version of the sea name. Someone should take some action to stop it, because I've already reverted it three times, but the he/she is obviously very stubborn and determined to damage this page. Sideshow Bob 21:09, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Redirect pages and disambiguation

The current disambig link at the top of the page (Mediterranean Sea (disambiguation)) is not a good one as most people who come to this page looking for something else searched for "Mediterranean" and not "Mediterranean Sea". Mediterranean currently redirects to this article. It was previously a disambiguation page, but with so many links to it (over 2,000; many of them referring to the Sea), it was turned into a redirect, as articles should link to disambig pages only when there is confusion about a concept or it is left deliberately vague. Unless someone is willing to go through and repair the 2,000 links to the disambig page (the ideal solution), I think it is better for now to add the multiple disambig templates back to this page (I will do so shortly). Black Falcon 05:32, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

The White Sea?

"Most languages have a name for the sea, often a translation of either "middle sea" or "white sea"." Uh... why? The article doesn't explain this, it just states it. I get that it's a common Middle Eastern name for the Mediterranean, but not why. RobertM525 05:37, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

I heard something about that ak/kara (white/black) in Turkish had some connotation of outer/inner, which would explain why the smaller, inner sea is the Black sea and the bigger, outer sea is the White sea. According to the same person, the words beyaz/siyah (also white/black) don't have these connotations. Any Turkish speakers here who can confirm this?Mats 21:00, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Mediterranean "Basin" Map

The map that is titled "Mediterranean Basin" does not actually show the basin. In fact, a good chuck of it is off the map, since the entire Nile Basin is part of the Mediterranean Basin. Changing the title to "Mediterranean Sea" or producing a map that showed the area that drains there would be fixes to this. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 216.57.220.63 (talk) 18:50, 23 February 2007 (UTC).

Western civilization

I changed

The history of the Mediterranean is crucial to understanding the origin and development of Western civilization.

to

The history of the Mediterranean is crucial to understanding the origins and development of many modern societies.

It is common for "Westerners" to think of ancient Mediterranean history as being entirely ours but this is severely unfair. Granted the ending statement did not actually say that but it strongly implied it.

--Mcorazao 03:24, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Parliamentary Assembly of the Mediterranean

I cut an out of place, unsourced and poorly formatted long section on the Parliamentary Assembly of the Mediterranean. Appeared to be a copy/paste from somewhere. It's in the history, if anyone wants to work it up and place properly. Vsmith 13:00, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Name section chopping

I chopped this para from the Name section:

Most languages have a name for the sea, often a translation of either "middle sea" or "white sea".
Currently, "The Med" is a common British English contraction for the Mediterranean Sea and its surrounding regions when employed in informal speech. "The Med" (and more often "the Eastern Med" or "the Western Med") are, almost to the exclusion of other terms, in informal usage in the US Navy.

1. Most languages have a name for anything they need to talk about. The Mediterranean is not notable in this regard. 2. The 'often'-ness of the White Sea, Middle Sea is not defined or sourced. The previous para says it in more definite language. 3. Wikipedia is not a slang dictionary. Adding "The Med" and other slang, jargon terms for it aren't in the scope of an encyclopedia article. ie.Are we expected to include every military informal term for it?

84.9.109.65 14:26, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

where is Montenegro?

on this satellite map, Montenegro is not shown while Serbia has access to sea. Is this map of Great Serbia project or ..?

No, it's an old map that displays Serbia and Montenegro as a single country, as it was for three years - — Jack (talk) 01:25, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Unnecessary Photo

The photo I am referring to is the one that depicts the sea, as a point between two countries. Is that really necessary? T saston 20:58, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Bible reference

"Sea of the Philistines" (Exod. 22:81)

This reference can't be right. Exodus 22 has only 30 verses. Bill52270 03:52, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Borders of Adriatic Sea!!!

Apparently someone who doesn't know geography well or does it but has sinister intentions, deletes references to the Adriatic Sea being shared also by Albania and Croatia, also Bosnia and Herzegovina was missing. Had to add them again. LiveGo 13:11, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Catalan Sea and help with user Maurice27 attitude

I'm trying to introduce Catalan Sea in this article. As Catalan Sea is a term broadly used in scientific literature, I think that has to be in Wikipedia, as a place to summarize current knowledge. I'm providing +1000 references to International peer-review Journals and scientific books, trough Google Scholar (http://scholar.google.es/scholar?q=%22Catalan+Sea%22&hl=ca&lr=&btnG=Cerca).

But user Maurice27 is reverting editions (and in some other articles) because he doesn't know previously the existence of Catalan Sea. Previously, he provided references to International Organizations agreements from 50's and 60's of XX century. Fortunately, Science has advanced in the last 40 years, specially Oceanography.

So I ask help with Maurice27 attitude/vandalism related to the Catalan Sea, that I repeated is used broadly in Scientific peer-review International Journal by Scientist from several countries. Marc B.

Some International references for Catalan Sea

Although Google Scholar references are provided, In other discussion [2] user Maurice27 said:

Google scholars made by Catalan people of the Instituto de Ciencias del Mar, Paseo Nacional, 08039, Barcelona, Spain???? Are you kidding us? What kind of proof for the international use is that?

Let me show a few international source as a contrast of this incredible claim.

--

http://doga.ogs.trieste.it/WP4/real_time_west.html

Mediterranean Forecasting System. Funded by European Commission V Framework Program Energy, Environment and Sustainable Development

--

http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S0079661199000300

Benthic response to particulate fluxes in different trophic environments: a comparison between the Gulf of Lions–Catalan Sea (western-Mediterranean) and the Cretan Sea (eastern-Mediterranean)

R. DanovaroCorresponding Author Contact Information, E-mail The Corresponding Author, a, e, A. Dinetb, G. Duineveldc and A. Tselepidesd a Institute of Marine Sciences, Faculty of Science, University of Ancona, Via Brecce Bianche, 60131 Ancona, Italy b Observatoire Océanologique de Banyuls, Laboratoire d'Océanographie Biologique (CNRS), B.P. 44, 66651 Banyuls-sur-Mer, France c Netherlands Institute for Sea Research (NIOZ), P.O. Box 59, 1790 AB Den Burg-Texel, The Netherlands d Institute of Marine Biology of Crete, PO Box 2214 Iraklio, Crete, Greece e Department of Zoology, University of Bari, Via Orabona 4, 70125, Bari, Italy

--

http://plankt.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/26/6/589

Feeding selectivities and food niche separation of Acartia clausi, Penilia avirostris (Crustacea) and Doliolum denticulatum (Thaliacea) in Blanes Bay (Catalan Sea, NW Mediterranean) Alexis Katechakis*, Herwig Stibor, Ulrich Sommer1 and Thomas Hansen1

Department Biologie II, Ludwigs-Maximilians-Universität, Abteilung Aquatische Ökologie, Karlstraße 23–25, 80333 München, Germany and 1 Institut für Meereskunde, Christian-Albrechts-Universität, Abteilung Experimentelle Ökologie, Düsternbrooker WEG 20, 24105 Kiel, Germany


--

http://www.csa.com/partners/viewrecord.php?requester=gs&collection=ENV&recid=596571

Notes on the feeding habits of Epigonus denticulatus (Pisces, Apogonidae) in the Catalan Sea (western Mediterranean).

Matallanas, J Vie et milieu. Paris. Vol. 32, no. 2, pp. 77-81. 1982.

An so on... Obviosly most of the references come from Research Institutes around the Catalan Sea because always Marine Research Institutes do their research activity more easily (funding question) in seas near its location.

Marc B.


I already said that you may be very well the Pope of Rome and you may have studied for decades marine geology. WE DON'T CARE! This is the ENGLISH wikipedia and so, YOU MUST use english names. (BTW, same could go for names such as Girona, Lleida... In no way used in english)

Due to your studies, you may very well know The Intergovernmental Oceanographic Commission (IOC) of UNESCO, right? Ok, let's talk about them:

  • "1.The Intergovernmental Oceanographic Commission established by resolution 2.31 adopted by the General Conference of Unesco at its eleventh session, and in conformity with the recommenda tion of the Intergovernmental Conference on Oceanic Research (Copenhagen 11- 16 July 1960) met for its first session in Paris at Unesco Headquarters from 19 to 27 October 1961" [3]
  • "2.By the end of the session, a total of 40 States had become members of the Commission. These are: Argentina, Australia, Belgium, Brazil, Canada, Chile, China, Cuba, Denmark, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, Finland, Federal Republic of Germany, France, Ghana, India, Israel, Italy, Ivory Coast, Japan, Korea, Mexico, Mauritania, Monaco, Morocco, Netherlands, Norway, Pakistan, Poland, Rumania, Spain, Switzerland, Thailand, Tunisia, Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, United Arab Republic, United Kingdom, United States of America, Uruguay, Viet-Nam. [4]
  • 3.Representatives and observers of the following intergovernmental and non-governmental organizations also attended the session: International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO), World Meteorological Organization (WMO), World Health Organization (WHO), Intergovernmental Maritime Consultative Organization (IMCO), International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO), International Council of Scientific Unions (ICSU), International Union of Geodesy and Geophysics (IUGG), International Association of Physical Oceanography (IAPO), International Union of Biological Sciences (IUBS), Special Committee on Oceanic Research (SCOR), Permanent Association of Navigational Congresses. International Hydrographic Bureau (IHB), International Council for the Exploration of the Sea (ICES), Inter-American Tropical Tuna Commission." [5]

You may find its statutes here and its Rules of Procedures here.

Notice that the biggest Unions, Comittees, Asociations, Bureaux and Coucils related to Geodesy, Meteorology, Oceanography are present in this commision and that Spain (the country in which this Sea is "located" (international waters included) and that USA and UK (the most relevant english speaking countries in the world) are also members.

This said, this gentlemen decided that this sea in question, was to be named in ENGLISH Balearic Sea (Balear Sea, Iberian Sea)[6] with the following codes:

  • 28 (c) using IHO 23-3rd: Limits of Oceans and Seas, Special Publication 23, 3rd Edition 1953, published by the International Hydrographic Organization. [A preliminary revision of SP 23, dated 1986, is widely cited on Internet websites.
  • B9 using ACIC M 49-1: Chart of Limits of Seas and Oceans, revised January 1958, published by the Aeronautical Chart and Information Center (ACIC), United States Air Force; note - ACIC is now part of the National Imagery and Mapping Agency (NIMA).
  • 8J using DIAM 65-18: Geopolitical Data Elements and Related Features, Data Standard No. 4, Defense Intelligence Agency Manual 65-18, December 1994, published by the Defense Intelligence Agency.

So, my dear annon user, let us IGNORE your original research of marine geology, even if working in "the (probably) biggest marine research institute in the Mediterranean Sea, in Barcelona". let us IGNORE your "lot of scientific literature about the Catalan Sea" and let us IGNORE your "several Ph.D. Thesis". Again, even if you are the Pope of Rome, here in wikipedia, we love references, we love facts and above all, we love the truth.

And the truth is, that in english, that sea is called Balearic Sea. PERIOD! --MauritiusXXVII (Aut Doce, Aut Disce, Aut Discede!) 22:36, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

You said that you "ask(ed) some scientist few meters from (You are) writing now about Catalan Sea before writting in Catalan Wikipedia"... That's fantastic... See, right here, next to me, God himself and Mahatma Gandhi (which is next room) are saying that that is not an acceptable reference. the "Someone who knows told me" doesn't work here in wikipedia.

You keep using as references google scholars and other institutes which are:

  • in spanish language
  • in catalan language
  • made by catalan people


So I decided to took some time to search...

A search at Google:

A Search at Google Scholars:

  • "Catalan Sea" 1,030 results (note than the majority is made by catalan people)
  • "Balearic Sea 724 results (note that names are more "international"

A search at Google Books:

Neither Encarta nor britannica show any result.


Now, let me guide you to WP:NAME guidelines:

  • "Generally, article naming should prefer what the greatest number of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity"

And, let me guide you to WP:NCGNguidelines:

  • The following convention on geographic names represents what Wikipedia actually does, and reflects lengthy discussion on the talk page. Our naming policy provides that article names should be chosen for the general reader, not for specialists. By following English usage, we also avoid arguments about what a place ought to be called, instead asking the less contentious question, what it is called. If English usually calls a place by a given name, use it.
  • This is the English Wikipedia; its purpose is to communicate with English-speaking readers. English does not have an Academy; English usage is determined by the consensus of its users, not by any government.
  • In general, however, we should avoid using names unrecognizable to literate anglophones where a widely accepted alternative exists.
  • Please remember that Google Scholar and Google Books are largely random selections out of the whole corpus of English writing. If the results could easily have arisen by chance (for example, if there are only half-a-dozen or so valid hits on all the alternatives combined), this is not a good indicator of widespread English usage.
    • Notice that a search in google scholars for Mediterranean Sea shows 408,000 results.
  • There are cases in which the local authority recognizes equally two or more names from different languages, but English discussion of the place is so limited that none of the above tests indicate which of them is widely used in English; so there is no single local name, and English usage is hard to determine. So, Where the above tests, therefore, give no indication of a widely used English name, those articles are placed according to the language of the linguistic majority


And how does the "linguistic majority" reach a consensus? Pacta sunt servanda ("pacts must be respected"). International treaties under the International Law are there to guide us all, my dear Marc B. Not just "per què te es passis pel forro dels collons" (to ignore them). If they are signed, you, as an individual, must RESPECT THEM.

And the most known supranational organization, the UN, did a treaty on the sea naming matter. Let us please ignore if you believe that a "reference from 50's and 60's" is not ok to you. As far as I'm concerned, a law or a treaty does not have a date of lapsing. If the treaty is effective to this date, you must accept it, because it is an International agreement.


And what does Wikipedia says to do in case of Naming Conflict Wikipedia:Naming conflict ?:

  • International organisations. Search for the conflicting names on the websites of organisations such as the United Nations, NATO, OSCE, IMF, etc.

So, my reference here above is far more respectable than your "google scholars" which can/may fail reach NPOV (if only in the naming). An International Agreement will NEVER.


United Nations view on the importance of Hydrography.[7] (Location: Home > Background)

On 23 December 2003 (that's not from the 50's and 60's anymore, right?), the United Nations General Assembly adopted Resolution A/RES/58/240 on Oceans and Law of the Sea that dealt, in large part, with safety of navigation. In this resolution, the General Assembly:

  • Welcomes the work of the International Hydrographic Organization (IHO) and its 14 Regional Hydrographic Commissions and encourages increased membership of the IHO by States, noting that organization’s capacity to provide technical assistance, facilitate training and identify potential funding sources for development or improvement of hydrographic services; and calls upon States and agencies to support the IHO trust fund and examine the possibility of partnerships with the private sector;
  • Invites IHO and the International Maritime Organization (IMO) to continue efforts and to jointly adopt measures with a view to encouraging greater international cooperation and coordination for the transition to electronic nautical charts; and to increase the coverage of hydrographic information on a global basis, especially in areas of international navigation and ports and where there are vulnerable or protected marine areas;

The International Hydrographic Organization (IHO) (which you fail to accept, even if the International community does), and which is encouraged by the U.N, does have a publication section inside their site [8] (go to Home > Publications > IHO Download Section), and how funny, it has charts in it (Special Publications > Limits of Oceans and Seas (1953). Sheet maps 1, 2 and 3). Click on "Sheet 2" [9]. Again, you will see that it clearly states Balearic (Iberian) Sea. Even more, "your" subdivision of this sea as "Catalan Sea" is not even accepted nor mentioned.


Now, untill you recover your breath, quit bulls**ting me with "Catalan issue being a problem to Maurice". Each day, I have 3-4 little boys as you for breakfast. If you fulfill your mouth with words such as "respect", "being humble", "read carefully references", "follow guidelines", "knowing a little about you are talking about", you must be prepared to bite the dust when playing with the big boys.

Wanted references? You better start chewing slowly. --MauritiusXXVII (Aut Doce, Aut Disce, Aut Discede!) 22:36, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

A I said before, Maurice, if you want to use these offensive words, please give me your real complete name, your academical background and where are you living and working (I did with me. You can contact me). We can discuss it in person. If not, please, as you know, discussion pages are for talking about articles.
I have to repeat that Catalan Sea and Balearic Sea are different Seas? You have the same (biased) problem as in Sicily-Sardinia. Your references don't mention several seas current in the Mediterranean Sea Wikipedia article. Please, can you apply same criteria and erase them from it?. Later you can create a new section with these seas. I repeated that Maurice27 vandal attitude is intellectually dishonest due to ideological prejudices (he is a well know activist against Catalan stuff that not follows its particular point of view), breaking the neutral point of view rule. Marc B.

Summarizing Catalan Sea/Maurice27 user issue

Let me summarize that issue realted to Maurice27 issue:


  • Maurice27: He modified a map [10] where consciosly situated Sicily in Sardinia Island.

Current (and ancient) knowledge: Sicily Island is located between Italian Peninsula and Africa.


  • Maurice27: He states that Balearic Sea and Catalan Sea are the same one.

Current knowledge: It shows that are different seas. Catalan Sea is inside Balearic one. References has been provided. Please, sea discussion above.


  • Maurice27: He states that Catalan Sea is the Catalan word for Balearic Sea.

Current knowledge: References for Catalan Sea (English) and Mar Catalán (Spanish) are given.


  • Maurice27: He states that Catalan Sea is not a common word in English language.

Current knowledge: According to this criteria, an important number of Wikipedia articles has to be erased.


  • Maurice27: He states that Catalan Sea has not international use.

Current knowledge: References of Catalan Sea used in International Peer-Review Journals (and books) are provided, from Academical Institutions of Spain, Italy, Netherlands, France, Germany...


  • Maurice27: Maurice27 assertations are based mainly in one reference (see discussion above).
    • It's dated from 50's and 60's of XX century.
    • Reference includes Spain, among other states.
    • Reference includes International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), among other institutions.

Current knowledge: Hundreds or modern reference has been provided

    • They are modern references, based in Google Scholar, the search engine for academical texts. Science and specially Oceanography had have key advances in the last 50 years.
    • Spain, where Catalan Sea is located and they are territorial waters, is using [11] the name Catalan Sea (mar Catalán) in official documentation by the Spanish Oceanographic Institute, Ministry of Science and Education.
    • IAEA (Monaco)are using Catalan Sea in peer-review journals (for example [12])


  • Maurice27: He states that Catalan Sea is not recogniced by IHO treathies (50's, 60's) [13].

Current knowledge: According to this particular criteria, currently seas in the Mediterranean Sea Wikipedia article has to be erased: Libyan Sea, Sea of Sicily, , Sea of Sardinia, Thracian Sea, Myrtoan Sea, Sea of Crete, the Cilician Sea. They are not in the IHO reference.


  • Maurice27: He states that references in google scholars and other institutes are in spanish language, in catalan language, (or) made by catalan people

Current knowledge: References in english language from nationals of France, Germany, Italy, Monaco, Ireland... are provided.


  • Maurice27: He states that Catalan Sea is not recognice by International Community.

Current knowledge: References for International Community are provided (Google Scholar).


Conclusions

I think conclusions are clear about Maurice27 attitude. In the other hand, Catalan Sea is in use in the last (at least) 50 years, international refences in several languages are provided, and as Wikipedia has to cover the knowledge, I think there is no problem about including Catalan Sea, although Maurice27 disaproval. I can't imagine more quality wikipedia criteria I have to use.

Marc B.


"Catalan Sea" lacks of any single "juridical authority", "law (i.e. de jure) that stipulates that official name" as it is exiged in order to accept a proposal. Being this a matter of using an internationally accepted name in International treaties under the International Law (known and used by every country in the world without misleadings), the options are clear.

  • The "Catalan Sea" name has not been accepted by the international community nor appears in any International treaty (please refer to above's explanation). In only appears in some scholars or books, but again, it lacks of International jurisdiction and/or approval.
  • The "Balearic Sea" does have the approval, full description, resolution in the Law of the Sea, and is perfectly delimited by the IHO in order to appear in sea charts worldwide

The UN, as such, has no jurisdiction, but the International treaties under the International Law signed between its members absolutly do. Therefore, the edition of "Limits of Oceans and Seas" by IHO (as an International organization), has FULL jurisdiction to give an "official denomination" (supposedly, as I'm not certain, with the majority of the votes of its members) with legal recognition.

May I use this example from October 2007, in which the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Japan requests a revision of the name "Japan Sea" Vs "Sea of Japan". Let me point you at section 5:

  • "The IHO is currently asking its member states for their opinions concerning the Japanese counterproposal while pointing out that there is no agreement on the Chairman's suggestion among member states concerned. It is the sincere hope of Japan that the Japanese counterproposal will gain the understanding and support of the international community, so that the revision of the "Limits of Oceans and Seas" can be realized at an early date."

So, you can imagine that, if a fully executive power such as the government of Japan adresses this organization, it is because the International Community did once give it full jurisdiction to manage these matters. And the agreement's signatures by the member states/organizations did give it therefore regulatory powers regarding (among many other things) sea toponymy.

And, "Catalan Sea" is not (yet) recognised by the IHO (therefore, no international recognition), as any member has (yet) presented its proposal to include it.

Marc, you may revert as many times as you wish. ALL those sea names are either unreferenced in their respective articles and/or are just mentioned in Antiquity by people such Horace (see Myrtoan Sea).... talking about OLD references... Mines at least are from XX century...

Whos is the one here who gave full referenced sources? I am

Following your criteria, you are asking to include unreferenced data in wikipedia, not only applying names wich are not recognised by the international community, but also you keep of insulting me with senteces like "beein intellectually dishonest, due to an ideollogical prejudice, as he is a well-know by the community activist against Catalan stuff", being this a personal attack and xenophobic discrimination. You are prejudging my edits negliging the references.

Due to your condition of annon user, I cannot report you to administrators, but your way of editing is clearly demonstrated.

You want to continue reverting? fine, as you don't admit being wrong, I will also continue. --MauritiusXXVII (Aut Doce, Aut Disce, Aut Discede!) 11:14, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

2008 submarine cable disruption

I was thinking there should be some reference to the 2008 submarine cable disruption incident, or at least a See also link, but I'm not really sure where it should be worked in... -- MacAddct  1984 (talk • contribs) 16:14, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

The Mediterranean will dry out?

Why is there not anything about this? it will and it has so you should add it.

92.12.171.222 (talk) 17:42, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

The Mediterranean may or may not dry out; Wikipedia is not a crystal ball. Read the policy at WP:CRYSTAL. - — Jack (talk) 01:25, 23 April 2008 (UTC)