Talk:May you live in interesting times

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Contents

[edit] Ernest Bramah

I've just checked the works by this author currently available in Gutenberg, and none of them feature this phrase. So citation locators will need to look further afield ...

  1. Four Max Carrodos Detective Stories (English)
  2. Kai Lung's Golden Hours (English)
  3. The Mirror of Kong Ho (English)
  4. The Wallet of Kai Lung (English)

YojimboSan

No idea whether Bramah actually used it, but to those who have read his books, it sounds very Bramah-esque... AnonMoos (talk) 09:04, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] clarfication

how is may you find what you are looking for a curse. I don't get it.

All three of these "curses" seem to have double meanings; the second perhaps less obviously than the other three(keep in mind that "coming to the attention of those in power" could mean having your achievements recognized by powerful people, rather than being found by oppressive authorities). "May you find what you are looking for" being the strongest curse of the three is probably meant to imply that people often "look for" things that they (according to some other philosophy of life) don't really need, perhaps things that in the end will make them unhappier rather than happier. It seems to me as if all three are meant to actually be "curses" while sounding like blessings. (If the sayings are not genuinely Chinese, as the article seems to imply they might not be, this reversal might be an expression of the Western tendency to simplify Eastern philosophy down to simple inversions of Western thinking - in any case, no matter the origin of the sayings, the irony would seem to be intentional in all three cases.)

[edit] A possible origin

A Chinese myself and I saw this so called Chinese proverb over some website, which makes me ponder for days. By the meanings and if it is a blessing, the closest I can get is:

生于忧患¹ 死于安乐²
(Traditional Chinese 生於憂患¹ 死於安樂²
transliterated Sheng Yu You Huan¹ Si Yu An Le²)

literal translation:
¹Born (or survive or live) in chaotic (or risky, interesting) time.
²Die in a peaceful time

Writen by Mencius (Chinese 孟子, transliterated Meng Zi)

Meanings¹
1) Born (or survive or live) in a hush environment will make a person to be tough, both body and mind.
2) Those who are prepared will survive. (used with 3. below)

Meanings²
This part could be what original person that coined the curse version left out, which confused all of us from it's origin, multiple meanings:
1. That person took part in gaining the peace, which make the person treasure it in a peaceful time as someone important.
2. The tough body and mind allows the person who is trained, to survived until the chaotic time is over.
3. This was added with the third link below, that website translated this part as:
Those who live in peaceful time are weak and they won't survive during troubled time.

References (Simplified Chinese)
www.audio-books.cn 有声读物网
China Basic Education 中国基础教育网
www.fainfo.com 圣言学堂

P/S
1) I never heard "It's better to be a dog in a peaceful time than be a man in a chaotic period." before, can someone show me the proverb ?
2) "May you be born in an important time" ?! Confucius ?! This is getting more and more weird...
3) Edited this section a few times. That's the problem with translating Chinese literatures.

--Alepandro 21:04, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Another Variation

The third 'Chinese' curse frequently occurs as Be careful what you wish for: you may get it. The meaning is not changed, but the heavy-handed overtones of the second phrase makes the irony more obvious.

[edit] "May you find what you are looking for"

Although I don't recognize where was the "interesting times" translated from, I can recognize the origin of the last "curse". It is 求仁得仁 --Billyswong 17:08, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

  • Except that 求仁得仁 seems to be a positive phrase akin to 如愿以偿. If anything, the way that the third "curse" relies on the second for ironic (or rather, sardonic) effect makes me wonder if the second two curses are just made-up bits of humor very much in the euphemistic English vein. They certainly seem like something Terry Pratchett would have written, and not at all like the sort of 幽默 (humor) used in Chinese. No citations, either. --creamyhorror, Jan 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.167.250.147 (talk) 10:25, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] the origin of "It's better to be a dog in a peaceful time than be a man in a chaotic period."

In traditional Chinese, it should be "寧為太平狗，莫作亂世民"。As far as I know it is a popular saying. Snowynight 19:14, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Citation

The first citation at the bottom ("Stephen E. DeLong (May 5, 1998). Get a(n interesting) life! Accessed February 13, 2004") no longer links to a working site, so I removed it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 216.165.19.148 (talk) 07:50, 2 March 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Earlier attestation - 1944 - The American Character by Denis William Brogan

(Note, this citation has been superseded by the 1939 citation given below.) I have found an attestation that is earlier than the 1950 work given in the current article. The book "The American Character" by Denis William Brogan was published in 1944 by A. A. Knopf. The text below is found on page 169 as the final sentences of the book:

It is, I have been told, one of the most formidable of Chinese imprecations to wish that your enemy lived “in interesting times.” We live in very interesting times; times not to be made better by any simple formula. Understanding each other is not enough, but it is an indispensable beginning.

This text appears in the original 1944 edition of the book. It does not appear in reprints issued in the 1950s because the work was rewritten. I initially found this attestation by using Google Book Search, and I then performed a double-check by examining the actual physical book.

Warning: When Google Book Search is used to find matches for the phrase "interesting times" some misleading publication dates are listed. For example, the publication date given for a magazine or other periodical is often the founding date of the periodical. It is not the date of a specific issue of the periodical. Therefore it is desirable to check the physical item directly. If someone else checks this attestation then perhaps the article can be updated. Garson 10:26, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Earlier attestation – 1939 – American Society of International Law Proceedings - via YBQ

The Yale Book of Quotations edited by Fred R. Shapiro (Yale University Press 2006) on page 669 gives a citation for the phrase “May you live in interesting times” as follows “American Society of International Law Proceedings vol. 33 (1939).” The YBQ also claims that “No authentic Chinese saying to this effect has ever been found.” Garson 18:44, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Another early attestation – 1939 – Proceedings of the Academy of Political Science

Evidence that a slight variant of the phrase was in use “many years” before 1936 is provided by an attestation from 1939. Frederic R. Coudert, a Trustee of Columbia University, presented opening remarks at a meeting of the “Academy of Political Science” in 1939. In his remarks the phrase “May you live in an interesting age” is labeled a Chinese curse. Coudert cites a letter from Austen Chamberlain, half-brother of British Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain, for introducing him to the curse. He also says that Chamberlain learned about the curse from a British diplomat in China:[1]

Some years ago, in 1936, I had to write to a very dear and honored friend of mine, who has since died, Sir Austen Chamberlain, brother of the present Prime Minister, and I concluded my letter with a rather banal remark, "that we were living in an interesting age." Evidently he read the whole letter, because by return mail he wrote to me and concluded as follows: "Many years ago, I learned from one of our diplomats in China that one of the principal Chinese curses heaped upon an enemy is, 'May you live in an interesting age.'" "Surely", he said, "no age has been more fraught with insecurity than our own present time." That was three years ago.

— Frederic R. Coudert, Proceedings of the Academy of Political Science, 1939

Garson (talk) 06:54, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Earlier uncertain reference

Via Google Book Search again, Diplomat in Peace and War by Hughe Knatchbull-Hugessen (pub 1949) contains the line, "Before I left England for China in 1936, a friend told me that there exists a Chinese curse - 'may you live in interesting times'". Not authoratitive, perhaps, but it's still worth looking for earlier ones. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.111.200.200 (talk) 22:23, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Excellent work!

I am the guy who found the Eric Frank Russell story for DeLong. I put some time into trying to find an earlier version as more resources opened up on the web, but not for a few years. Thanks! Keith Henson 20:46, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Maybe 现世宝 is the original ancient Chinese curse.

While translating a play, I found "May you live in interesting times". Reading the articles here, I still cannot translate it close to the English context. After searching for ancient Chinese curse in Chinese, I found that "现世宝” is closest to it.

现世宝 means a clown of current time, a shameless character of current time.

Normally in China when a child behaves in public very badly, the parents would curse the child, you are such a “现世宝”，meaning you are such a shame to your parents in public. You are such a rotten child.

Interesting aspect on this theory, I guess I focus too much on Classical Chinese. There are a lot of variations on this curse in Spoken Chinese context and we are limited to what we encountered because these are not officially recorded in written Chinese, perhaps cause by the rudeness IMHO.

Just to confirm is 现世宝 comes from Cantonese of the Spoken Chinese ? (To the rest, Cantonese is also a modern written Chinese, use as one of the official languages in Hong Kong and it's neighbors, FYI.) --Alepandro (talk) 09:32, 27 December 2007 (UTC)