User talk:Markussep/ArchiveGreece

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Transliteration of Greek into English.

This looks like a useful article. I must admit I've been a bit puzzled as to how to transliterate Modern Greek (and official Greek Government sources seem to be inconsistent). Why do they still (I think) put HELLAS rather than ELLAD(H)A on their stamps?

A few suggestions:

  • I think you need to reflect the rough and smooth breathings in the classical transliterations, but mention that they're discontinued in Modern Greek (in the current article you mention the spiritus asper but only for rho).
  • Again if you're covering Classical Greek perhaps you should include the iota subscript
  • I don't think ντ and μπ ever occurred in Classical Greek at the start of a word.
  • I was surprised not to see gh in either of the modern transliterations.
  • Altogether, the modern transliterations don't do a very good job of representing Greek; for instance if a word starts with g in the BGN transliteration this could represent either γ or γκ, with quite different pronunciations.
  • it would be interesting to know which (if either) of the modern schemes is more commonly in use

Best of luck! rossb 11:31, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for your suggestions. My primary interest was modern Greek, but well, why not cover classic Greek as well. Some answers:
  • spiritus asper, lenis and iota subscripts, OK. I don't know how iota subscripts are transliterated, though.
  • ντ and μπ: I've never seen them at the start of a classic Greek word either, I'll remove it.
  • There are many more transliteration and transcription schemes, but the one using "gh" for γ is not often used. Apart from the "WML" column in Pederson's table, I haven't seen it.
  • You're right, γ is a fricative, γκ a plosive. The UN/ELOT system separates them: g and gk.

Markussep 14:25, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)


Why do they still (I think) put HELLAS rather than ELLAD(H)A on their stamps?

The reason for this is that Greece was diglossic until 1983.This means that there were two language varieties used at the same time: the formal katharevusa used in the administration (which gives us HELLAS) and the informal demotiki used in everyday interactions (where we get ELLADHA from). Although the katharevusa was abandoned more than 20 years ago, some demotiki words (e.g. ELLADHA) didn't quite catch on. I believe that stamps now carry the logo ELLINIKI DEMOCRATIA (HELLENIC REPUBLIC) but I could be wrong. I hope that helps. TheArchon 16:43, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Chi

both kh and ch are used in English when transliterating χ: kh is less ambiguous, because readers unfamiliar with Greek will assume that ch represents the church sound of Enlish ch. dab (ᛏ) 17:08, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

I know, but it's more common for Greek to use "ch". Achaïa is not meant to be the pronunciation, but the official romanization of the Greek name, see Transliteration of Greek into English, UN/ELOT column. Markussep 17:14, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
ok, well, if you like. I have been using ē and ō in combination with kh all over Wikipedia, though. Maybe it's time for some guidelines (Wikipedia:Wikiproject transliteration?) dab (ᛏ) 17:20, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
I couldn't agree more, see discussion at Talk:Greece. Markussep 17:30, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

Greek language

There seems to have been a nationalist orgy going on there in the last couple weeks, especially on the talk page; I tried to put in a word of sense to the effect that Homer and Demotic weren't perfectly mutually intelligible, and was ignored. Care to look in? Septentrionalis 18:37, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Provinces of Greece

The provinces of Greece are not prefectures or departments or even regions or states or other provinces like Argentina and Finland, they are like districts (like Japan, not as prefectures) or counties. Some people refer to Elis and Corinthia as provinces but not prefectures but in Wikimedia and other communications including newspapers and in Greek, they are prefectures and provinces like the province of Elis or Ilia and Parnassida is like a (low-level) district, not a department of a prefecture which the Ilia Province covers nearly half of the prefecture. They are not disbanded, they are at the quaternary level, not the tertiary level like the prefectures. They administer minor roads. Pumpie, 18:45, 24 Aug 2005 (UTC)

They have powers but not as strong as the prefectures, regions or rarely municipalities, they also probably have elections but not with the municipalities or the prefectures, I'm not sure what part of the four-year they use or the regional (peripherial) elections, they administer countryside roads that are not residential but links with villages, some towns and communities. Pumpie, 19:03, 24 Aug 2005 (UTC)

"Populated places"

I recently spent a great deal of time and effort making all the "list of communities...in Greece" articles consistent. I've just discovered that you're changing them all. That's not necessarily a problem, but there are two worries: first, "populated places" is extremely vague, and sounds rather odd in English, and secondly, the articles are all lists, and their titles should therefore be of the form "List of.." (as they were). --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 15:59, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

The thing is, though, that "community" is an ordinary English word that lacks the specialised meaning of "κοινότητα", whereas "populated place" isn't really very English at all ("settlement" would be better, as it encompasses cities, towns, villages, and hamlets).
"Stand-alone lists, or 'lists of links' are entries consisting of a list of links to articles in a particular subject area, such as people or places or a timeline of events. The title of these entries always begin with list of or timeline of. The title and bullet style or vertical style is common for this type of list. These Wikipedia entries follow the Wikipedia:Lists (stand-alone lists)." (from Wikipedia:Lists#Types of lists) --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 16:35, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
"List of settlements in the X prefecture" looks fine to me. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 22:38, 17 September 2005 (UTC)


about greek cities

From Makedonas. hello,i am Yiannis from greece and my favorite hobbys are geography ang foreign languages.i m not very good at english:)About the list of greek cities,i correct my first list because the first time i wrote the population of the cities with the suburbs(althought many of these place in the list are suburbs of Athens and Thessaloniki).My sources are http://www.statistics.gr and http://www.ypes.gr/kapodistrias/index.html. I hope you like it. Aboute the estimate for 2005 i havent found any reliable source.thanks for the comment:)

Hello from Makedonas

Hi,well i think we use the same source but i use it in greek: http://www.statistics.gr/table_menu.asp?dt=0&sb=SAP_1&SSnid=Στοιχεία%20Πραγματικού%20-%20Μόνιμου%20-%20Νόμιμου%20Πληθυσμού table 6 . There are 3 populations for every city.1. the population of the "municipality" (this one include the suburbs/villages of every city) 2. the population of the "municipale department" of the city (which include some neighborhoods of the city which are not autonomus suburbs/villages) and 3. the population of the central part of the "city" without these neighborhoods. For the big cities municipality,municipal department and centre of city is the same thing.For the other cities we usualy use or the population of municipality(city with suburbs) or the population of municipale department to express the city without the suburbs.I used the second one.I thing you used the third one,thats why there is a little difference.That is for now.for any question i m here...

Greece

  • X (island) probably is better than X Island. I don't know how exactly anglophon people handle this. I prefer "X" to be a dab page, so accidental linking can be discovered faster and corrected to what you really want. (BTW I don't care much if Rügen is called Rügen Island - if this would be english... but yes, use parenthesis, maybe we can write a guide about that)
  • whether the provinces are significant or not, I think they deserve (in the long run) short entry. Population-data, size, admin seat, map ... And better start now, thus to assure correct wikilinks from all the different places ... (province infobox template is needed)
  • some thought: the bottom nav templates need to be improved. restating the prefecture name several times within the temp is of not much use. "Municipalities" vs. "Municipalities of X" if the head already says "divisions of X"

regards Tobias Conradi (Talk) 11:29, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Patras's population

Hello Markussep, I appreciate your contribution to wikipedia articles on european regions. You are doing a great job. I have an objection though; you edited the population of Patras from 171,616, according to the 2001 nationwide census, to 163,446. To the best of my knowledge and believe, and according to the reference only the first is the accurate figure. In fact even this seemingly larger figure refers only to inhabitants of Patras's municipality that where recorded on the day of the census. It would be helpful if we could provide an estimation of the population of the Functional Urban Region of Patras, or the urban system. As for the area and population density, do you have any credible source? Regards, Donnerstag 00:59, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Hi Donnerstag! My source is the 2001 census. As you see in the table, there are two columns for 2001: Μόνιμος πληθυσμός (Permanent population according to babelfish) and Πραγματικός πληθυσμός (Real population, id.). Your 172k is the first, my 163k is the second. The real population seems better to me. About the functional urban region: if you know which municipalities are part of that (I don't), you can calculate the population from the census data. I took the area data from the Greek ministry of interior website, navigation via the prefecture (right menu bar), municipality name, and then ΒΑΣΙΚΑ ΧΑΡΑΚΤΗΡΙΣΤΙΚΑ. The population number given there is the real population from 1991, I guess the area is still accurate. I calculated the population density myself. Markussep 19:03, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
Never trust a ministry! OK, if you insist you can leave the real population of 163k. I'm not sure about any of the two figures though. I checked the area, your data are accurate and updated for John Capodistria municipal reform program. As a result of this, the communes of Moira, Elikistra, Souli were added to the municipality bringing much area but little population, that's why it seems scarcely populated (GDP per head decreased too!). As for the functional urban region, somebody already has written that the "metropolitan area" is over 200,000. That's an accurate estimation if you include the adjacent Municipalities of Rio, Messatis, Paralia and/or Pharres. This gives a 203,963 in real population. Best, Donnerstag 03:09, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Category:Ilia

I noticed that this has never been renamed to Elis, so I put it up on WP:CfD. How are the other Greek prefecture cats? Septentrionalis 19:41, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

See CfD for how to move cats. I'll put it on my to-do list; but that will probably be a couple months. Septentrionalis 20:00, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Prefectures categories.

I agree that this would be helpful in relieving the category and I supprot the idea. You may go ahead with it by all means =) - Erebus555 17:46, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Leipsoi because of Λειψοί?

Hi, it may not be a major point but why the move to the odd-looking "Leipsoi"? From what I remember, no one in the area transcribes it that way. It is always "Lipsi" or "Lipsos". Just look at the external links. All the best, <KF> 20:32, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, as long as there is a redirect people will find it no matter how it is spelled in English. Thanks for the answer. <KF> 20:46, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Greece

The Pyli stub in Trikala,Thessaly is no more. It is my hometown and was surprised to find it (even as a stub) in the wikipedia, so I took the liberty of filling it. It's not promotion stuff, more of a small guide (and it really is a nice place). I'd be happy to have it checked! Keep up the good work on stubs. Sooner or later it'll be filled!User:stoneforger 02:04, 18 October 2006 (EEST)

Keep up the Greece stubs. You are filling in important gaps!! Go for it my friend!! James Janderson 12:24, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

No I don't speak Greek its just I regularly do similar stubs with italy and other places and I know it is hard work which rarely gets appreciated or encouraged. Keep it up!! James Janderson 12:33, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Hi good to see you are still ploughing through them. I may give a hand later. I have already started millions of Italian communes but I have recently noticed that the municipalities of Slovakia are practically not covered. At a later date would you like to help me go through them? -obviously after you have taken a well earned rest from greece!!!! James Janderson 15:31, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

hey I have started articles on Ziros and Sitia Mountains to help you out! The prefecture of east Crete though needs a template box. James Janderson 10:05, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Hi, u are doing a really great job in these articles. If u have difficulties with the greek language, i will be really happy to help:). Regards --Hectorian 23:46, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
I've checked about 10 prefectures by now, by moving alphabetically. i moved two municipalities of corfu [1] (see the respective articles as well), cause the names were in the genitive case. i made one more correction in Chalcidice [2], though it seems that u have not yet get involved in that article. lastly, an advice: it will be very hard to find a greek municipality in the nominative case, cause we always use the genitive when talking about municipalities. furthermore, most of the names of the municipalities created recently with the "Cappodistria Plan" have nothing to do with the villages they are made of, in order to avoid confict between them (many "conflicts" concerning some names and which village should be the capital have been reported the last 5 years) and, in addition, some names come from mythological or ancient figures. so, most likely, there will be municipalities for which u will not find their name in the nominative case online... I will check the rest prefectures soon. Regards --Hectorian 00:19, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Yeap, i know;). keep up the good work. the prefectures that still remain in my talk page are ok. let me know when u are about proceed to others (in case i have not checked them earlier). Cheers --Hectorian 22:22, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
Well done Markussep! I've just finished checking them and all look fine! If u, and me, missed something concerning the transliteration from greek to english as well as their nominative case, don't worry... as time passes me (and other greek users) will see them, and any minor mistake (if exists) will be corrected. Keep up the good work;). Cheers --Hectorian 02:50, 5 September 2006 (UTC)


Nice going mate remember me I used to be James Janderson now I have become an evil genius who wants to take over the world and lives in a volcano! Greece is done and dusted now is it!! I am still plodding through slovakia I am just about half way through. Ernst Stavro Blofeld 19:44, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Kirra Greece

Could you please take a look at the page Kirra Greece that I've created? And could you please edit it? Thank you! Neptunekh 22:21, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

User:Markussepp

There's a Markussepp (talk · contribs). No relation to you, I presume? I see you're editing Greece-related articles, where this guy (and other accounts) dumped external links. Is there a common meaning behind the names and it's a coincidence that they're similar, or do you suppose it's an imposter trying to disguise with your existing name? Femto 15:21, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Amfipoli, Greece

Hi. I made added some and some external links on a page about a town called Amfipoli in Greece. Could You check it out and maybe it edit please? Thank you! Neptunekh 22:36, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Template:Infobox Town GR

Hi, could you take a look at the display problem of the Infobox template on Loutrochori, Pella (this revision), and check if the non-display of the locator map might be related to your recent edits to the infobox code? Thanks, Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:04, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Yep, thanks, I was just going to say I figured it out. But by the way, are you certain we really want the functionality you introduced? If somebody provided a correct map image but failed to provide coordinates, why should the template not show the correct map? Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:19, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
Ah, I understood only now that your version of the template actually creates the maps on the fly instead of using a stored one. Nifty. Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:22, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
Well, come to think of it, probably you are quite right and it's a good idea. The coordinates aren't too difficult to find after all, and it's probably easier than creating and uploading a separate map for each village. Thanks again, Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:28, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Update User:Markussep/Luxembourg

I uploaded a newer version of the Athens Seal, and it's now Athens_seal.png, so if you want you can update you user page: User:Markussep/Luxembourg. I'll probably end up deleting the older version soon (Athens_seal.jpg). El Greco 14:41, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Category:Chalcidice

I've posted a request for a rename of this category to Category:Chalkidiki as a result of the discussion we had here. --Kimontalk 14:47, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

WP:Athens

I was hoping you could add your name to the WP:COUNCIL/P page to help get WP:Athens into existance. It's just a proposal so far, but I hope more people will add their names. El Greco (talk · contribs) 16:06, 5 August 2007 (UTC)