Talk:Married and maiden names

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Wikipedia:Naming conventions (people)

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[edit] globalize

I think that this article confuses the reader to assume that adoption of the husband's surname is the norm with a few countries as the exception. You must read far into the article to find that "not all countries" do this. It should be more organized, and explain in the introduction that this position is far from universal. I don't think my english is good enough to do it myself, though...

[edit] korea

I do not believe this information is entirely correct. I am a South Korean, and I can verify that male surnames were adopted in marriage and that the children adopt the male surname back at least three generations. Therefore, this practice goes before the westernized Korean Industrialization period, the Korean War period, and even before the Japanese occupation period. There are, however, exceptions to the rule. Korean women who have professional careers oftentimes choose to keep the name they had when they became successful and/or well known. This is in contrast to western feminism, where keeping the last name is more an act of self-assertion.

192.91.173.42 15:58, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Italy

In Italy, from 1975 (new family law) women keep their maiden name. They can use the married name together with the maiden name, without hyphen (For example, Maria Rossi marries Carlo Bianchi. She can then refer to herself as Maria Rossi Bianchi). It is no longer customary, except for older generations, to use the married name instead of the maiden name. Therefore, the article should reflect this. --Vento 21:26, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] USians

About 17% of Australian women on marriage choose to keep their own surname. So it's not common, but it's significant. The article would definitely be benefited from some numbers on the various different choices as they occur across nationalities, but it's by no means an extremely rare choice outside the US. Thayvian 01:04, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Née

""née" (pronounced as either "nay" or "nee")"

Firstly, it has a superfluous "as".

Secondly, the pronunciation of all the other words in the article (or any other articles) hasn't been added, why should this be any different?

Thirdly, it's pronounced "nay". The only people who say "nee" are utter morons who need to be euthanised.

You, sir, are the utter superfluous moron. Good day. 219.77.98.28 14:01, 10 February 2006 (UTC)


All the women I know who changed their surnames dropped their middle names. I don't know anyone who became, for instance, "Kate Jane Smith". The new "tacked on his name at the end" that I've been hearing so much of lately seems like a cop-out women use to make themselves feel better when they go down the path of least resistance and take their husband's name.

Also, isn't it kind of obvious that if Jane Smith-Luyten marries John Brown-Clarke, they'll become Smith-Clark, or Smith-Brown, or Luyten-Brown, or Luyten-Clarke? Clearly they'll just prune two surnames from the bunch. I'd hope they'd prune the surnames of the parent each of them feels closest too (which would probably be the mother at least half the time).

It would certainly be interesting to include some more data of all kinds in this article. How many married women use their maiden name, a hyphenated or joint name, or their husband's name? How are children actually being named? And as there are now plenty of adults using the surnames of both parents, what do they do when they marry? At the moment we have choices and criticisms, but not data. Also, I don't think it's entirely obvious that people would do what you suggest. Many people have parents are are alive and active in (probably controlling) family affairs at the time of their marriage. Family politics don't often work so that you can say "Mum, Dad, John and I are using Mum's name and not Dad's because I'm much closer to her than to you Dad!" Thayvian 02:55, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

When a woman keeps her birth name after marriage, is she still a miss or is she now a mrs.? -- Anon, August 2003

Ms. --Menchi (Talk)â 08:53, 10 Dec 2003 (UTC)

[edit] Double surname

If "Kate Luyten" marries "John Smith", isn't it also common for her to be "Kate Luyten Smith"? (The article gives "Smith Luyten"). Does the ordering of the two names have a significance? --Menchi (Talk)â 08:53, 10 Dec 2003 (UTC)

==double surname My concern is business related -- how names show in alphabetical listings. When a name is hyphenated, does it not become one name? When Sara Jones marries and becomes Sara Jones-Downs, is her last name Downs or Jones-Downs?

Her last name is Downs. What is more importnat, some feminist foolishness or a successful marriage where BOTh aprties are giving of respect to each other?
This is mixing up double-barrelled names (which sometimes do and sometimes don't have hyphens - my own surname has both variations in use) and the custom of the maiden name becoming a replacement middle name - e.g. Sara Kate Jones becomes Sara Jones Downs but her surname is "Downs" not "Jones Downs", so she should be listed under Downs. That custom seems to be a predominantly US one.
Double-barrelled names are more common in the UK and often are made up of the two names upon a marriage, although many have specific reasons for being used - a relative of the woman may have left property to the couple on the condition that they add the surname, the women's family name may die out otherwise, his the woman's name may be rather more interestng than the man's dull one - hence many "Something-Smith"s and "Something-Jones"es, illegtimate children being given both parents' names and so forth. (Consequently it's much rarer for the problem of double-double-barrelled names to crop up, although there are some, especialy as the habit of just combining both names for that reason alone is becoming more common.)
There have been some problems in indexing double-barrelled names - I've read that the DNB uses the last part of the name - but generally most use the full spelling. Timrollpickering 11:50, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Men changing name after marriage?

Nowadays in Germany (civil law) it is still common that after marriage a woman takes the name of her husband, but it is also possible that both continue to use their former names or that the man takes the name of his wife. The article seems to suggest that a change of name in that direction is very unusal in the US/UK? -- till we ☼☽ | Talk 17:47, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

It is very unusual in the U.S. It does happen occasionally, but the people involved know that they're doing something very odd. – Quadell (talk) (sleuth) 18:17, Feb 16, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Celebrity women who took their husband name

I removed this list as totally pointless: there are thousands of them. On the other hand, I may settle for the list celebrities who abandoned their maiden name after becoming celebrity: this case may indeed deserve some interest: why would one abandon a famous name. mikka (t) 03:09, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

Agreed.
I don't really understand why the anonymous editor User:24.130.117.205 reintroduced this list on 17 Aug 2005 after User:Mikkalai removed it on 03:06, 6 August 2005. It must say something about me that I recognise so few of these celebrity names, :). I think the article is more focussd without the list. If the list is judged by some to be important, then I suggest it could be recreated as a seperate list, and linked from this article. I shall delete and leave it open to anyone who wants a seperate list to make it. -- Op. Deo 09:31, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Taiwan

A User wrote in the article the following: 131.215.7.209 17:02, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

I'm a Taiwanese. This double surname practice have been very common in Taiwan. Women never drop their maiden names after marriage, but join their husbands' surname instead,(as described in the previous paragraph). And as far as I know, this tradition came from mainland China. (I'm not sure whether people in mainland China still keep this tradition nowadays.)

Nowadays, married women in Taiwan tend to use their maiden names alone without any concern of possible confusion from other people. Only when a women wants people to know her marital status associated to her husband would she use the name with her husband's surname appended. I believe these traditions described above apply in mainland China and Korea, too. But I need confirmation from people who know more and more accurately. Thank you.

I have edited the article to remove this which is more appropriately placed as a discussion on this talk page. I have edited the article to reflect my understanding of this user's contribution. Op. Deo 18:07, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

Has any Chinese person touched this article? Op. Deo, if the current status of the article was your "understanding of that user's contribs", I must say that you didn't understand it very well. Ok, it wasn't phrased very well either. I wholeheartedly agree with that "worldwide-view" thing.
I shall now edit the article in line with my perspective, any Chinese who disagrees can say so. I think the above also applies to Japanese, by the way. And where did that "legally" come from? As in the West, there are no laws stating what a woman must do with her name, I think. 219.77.98.28 14:05, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
I have very little knowledge of Asian practices. I like your reorganisation of the article, User:19.77.98.28, however, I have not checked all the details. Op. Deo 18:01, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] {{globalize}}

I added the tag mainly due to the "Using a husband's surname"-section. I know this has been the case in Scandinavia until recently, and I'm pretty sure it's very common in France, Germany, Italy, etc. Saying simply "In English-speaking countries" doesn't really cut it.

Apart from the examples mentioned about China, Taiwan and Korea, what is the exact status of this tradtion in the world? I assume that among cultures where a person's name is divided into a family and a given name, the general rule has been that women change their family name to that of their husband upon marriage. Of course, many cultures don't really have a family name in this sense. Many have (or have had) a "son of ..., son of ..., etc." rule, for example.

In my view it would be more relevant to say that changing has typically been the general rule regarding maiden names, and that there are exceptions. Anyone have more specific information about what cultures where women don't traditionally change their surname? —Gabbe 22:45, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

The section "Europe abd North American" is biased towards the custom in anglosaxon countries. There are several countries in Europe where a women can't even change her name when she marries (Belgium for example). KristVB 08:56, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
I agree entirely. I'll change it to "English-speaking world". Joeldl 07:29, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Move to Married and maiden names

I performed the move per discussion on RfD#April 1 (edit sum in error, sorry). The article discusses both subjects equally (or should) and since one concept means nothing without the other, it's right to treat them together. Both Married name and Maiden name now redirect here. John Reid 04:33, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] When and why was this tradition created?

I am just curious as to how the tradition of a marrying woman takes the husband's name after marriage.

Does anyone know when this tradition started? How it was started and where?

If I can get linked or directed to this information, I would appreciate it. Thanks.

[edit] Statistics

I am not an expert on this subject, but I found your article while looking for information on the frequency of name conversion among women in different careers in the United States (particularly scientific research careers). If you know of any resources that would be useful to that sort of application, I would love to see them added to the article. If I find any in my searching, I will be sure to add them to this discussion.

[edit] The "Legal Status" Section

This is definitely NOT correct - I believe the situation is the reverse in the US/UK. I don't know enough to edit it, but I do know enough to run a simple Google search that came up with endless websites saying that keeping the birth name warrants no action in both the UK and most of the US. It's CHANGING your name that is the pain in the ass/arse, and that's another major reason why some women don't bother changing it. This is just one of hundreds of websites that will tell you that: http://family.findlaw.com/marriage/marriage-more/name-after-marriage.html The above pertains to New York, I think, but the overall laws are similar in most other states. If you go to the Social Security Administration webpage, they have an entire section devoted to all the ID you have to reprocess and all the places you have to notify if you decide to change your name for any reason, marriage or otherwise. So it would be greatly appreciated if someone could fix this.

Based on your suggestion, I kind of edited that section. The paragraph as a whole makes much less sense now, but at least it's not passing on any blatent mistakes that you and I are aware of.

[edit] Việt Nam

In Vietnam, wives keep their name. But I don't write well english. So if someone could put that somewhere... → Tristan ♡ 13:19, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] France

For a reference about France see http://vosdroits.service-public.fr/F77.xhtml —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.229.209.33 (talk) 21:35, August 26, 2007 (UTC)

Removed "because..." because it is both speculative and unsourced 82.229.209.33 16:50, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Name changes in the United States

The article says:

In many countries, including the United States, a legal record must be filed in order to make this name change, which increases the level of complexity.

I do not believe this is strictly true. In the common-law states (that is, every state except Louisiana), it's my understanding that it is at least theoretically possible to change your name simply by deciding that your name is now different, and convincing people to call you by the new one. Supposedly this is supposed to be what has always happened, in theory, when a married woman takes her husband's surname -- there doesn't need to be any statute law about it (though some states may very well have such laws, redundantly). --Trovatore 01:19, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Source of some information about naming in the EU

The surname of married women in the European Union has information about both practices and attitudes in many EU countries, including some not well covered in this article Thayvian 12:13, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] History ?

Does anyone know when this practice arose in various countries? While researching my German ancestors, I noticed that before about 1820 a married woman was never listed with her husband's surname. At most, it would be 'Jane Doe the wife of John Smith'. After about 1850, most records seemed to be 'Jane Smith'. PaleWhaleGail (talk) 23:21, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Intro Awkwardness

"Historically, a woman in England would assume her new husband's family name (or surname) after marriage to him, and this remains common practice in England today as well as in countries where English is spoken, including Australia, New Zealand, Gibraltar, Falkland Islands, Northern Ireland, the English-speaking provinces of Canada, and the United States. United States law does not require a woman to change her name upon marriage."

Why is that last bit there? It seems to imply that the US contrasts the other countries listed by NOT requiring a woman change her name, which is certainly untrue. Why list that information for only the US?

It's quite incorrect to say that you need to apply to change your name after marriage in Canada, and I'm sure in many of the other countries too.

Also, this discussion contains a few inappropriate comments. I am unfamiliar with how one flags a comment for a moderator. This whole article and discussion section really needs some attention though. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.108.93.159 (talk) 17:39, 4 May 2008 (UTC)