Talk:Mantled Howler

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[edit] subspecies

In the current revision, separate subspecies are incorporated for:

• Azuero Howling Monkey, Alouatta palliata trabeata
• Coiba Island Howling Monkey, Alouatta palliata coibensis

Right now there is an article for the Coiba Island Howler, as a separate species, incorporating these two subspecies. I think that - as referenced in that article - the Coiba Island Howler is more generally recognized as a separate species, although the evidence is not overwhelming. Should we have contradicting information in the mantled howler article from the Coiba Island howler article. For now I updated the mantled howler article to address the possible controversy.Rlendog (talk) 21:23, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Hrm... MSW3 doesn't list any of them as subspecies, jus tthat there are likely some subspecies. - UtherSRG (talk) 22:02, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

I believe that the more generally accepted taxonomy is that the Coiba Island Howler, with its two subspecies (Coiba Island Howler and Azuero Howler), is a separate species from the Mantled Howler. That presentation would be consistent with the Coiba Island Howler article and with the presentation in the Howler Monkey article. I'm not sure how that gets resolved in Wikipedia terms though. I assume we should be internally consistent, which makes me think that treating the Coiba Island howler as a separate species, but noting the possible ambiguity in both the Coiba Island howler article and the mantled howler article may be best.Rlendog (talk) 22:21, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

I can't speak to the validity of the other listed subspecies.Rlendog (talk) 22:22, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

I added the subspecies as listed here, I can't access the full papers though. I'm not entirely sure on the most recent mDNA research but as far as I remember the piece I saw was inconclusive. It's best writing what we currently understand; therefore leaving it as Rlendog has put it. Jack (talk) 23:59, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

I just checked with the Estrada/Garber/Pavelka/Luecke book "New Perspectives in the Study of Mesoamrican Primates" (2006). They recognize the same 3 palliata subspecies that are currently listed here (palliata, mexicana, aequatorialis). They note (p. 49) that the trabeata and coibensis were originally considered subspecies as well, and that this 5 subspecies taxonomy was accepted by Hall (1981) but modified by Froehlich (1986, 1987) to move trabeata and coibensis under a newly recognized coibensis species. They further note that Rylands et al (2000) accepted this taxonomy (3 subspecies to palliata, 2 to coibensis) but that Groves (2001) didn't recognize any subspecies - just palliata and coibensis as 2 separate species. On page 53 they also note that while they "continue to recognize both trbeata and coibenis as distinct" subspecies within coibensis, based on mitochondrial DNA analysis they "fully accept the possibility that they should be considered subspecies of A. palliata." Based on all this, I think the current presentation is the best that can be done.Rlendog (talk) 04:24, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Good enough for me. Groves wrote the Primates section for MSW3, but he's reversed himself a few times and the Primates section was submitted before he was happy with it. - UtherSRG (talk) 12:50, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Still a Stub?

I'm not sure this article should still be considered a stub. What needs to be done to update its status?Rlendog (talk) 01:12, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Just removing the stub tags is all that's needed. I've done it. - UtherSRG (talk) 02:28, 10 March 2008 (UTC)