Talk:Mac OS X v10.5

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[edit] Info on iCal Dock Date Wrong!

The wiki page reads: "The icon also reflects the current date even when the application is not running. In previous versions, the icon would remain at July 17th until the application was run." This is not correct.

In Leopard, the iCal dock icon does indeed update it's self, however in Panther the iCal dock icon would update and remain updated provided the user launch iCal once a day. When Tiger came out, this feature was for some reason removed, causing the icon to revert to July 17th when iCal is exited. All Leopard did was re-enable this feature, and make the icon auto update without having to launch iCal. Nabeel_co 05:51, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Title Change Needed

I was searching for this and it took me quite a while to find it. I would suggest changing the name to "Mac OSX Version 10.5 "Leopard" " this will make this page easier to read. (I cannot find how to do this though). Earlier I madea page called leopard System which had a link to here and now redirects to hear. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Stealth500 (talk • contribs) 13:44, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

No other OS X version page has the cat name in it, and people have managed to find them. Note that if you just look for "Leopard", it takes you (as it should), to the page for leopards, but that page points you to the "leopard" disambiguation page, which has a link to the page for 10.5. The same applies to the page for tigers and the "tiger" disambiguation page, the latter of which links to the page for 10.4; the page for panther is a disambiguation page which links to the page for 10.3, and the cats for 10.0, 10.1, and 10.2 have disambiguation pages that point to the OS X pages. Guy Harris (talk) 18:40, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
There is something called a redirect as well. Use it to create as many aliases of the title as you want. --soum talk 07:42, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
So does tha mean I could make a few redirrects here? I will go do that.

thanks --Stealth500 (talk) 12:14, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Better Image for Leopard Packaging

I Just found an Image of the Mac OS X Leopard Box in Higher Resolution. I'm not experienced when it Comes to Uploading Pictures, So if Anyone Knows how to, here is the Link: http://www.curtsheller.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/leopard-box.png --Christian Cardozo 19:51, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Universal release

The article claims that Leopard is a universal release (wikilinking to universal binary) but the universal binary article implies that universal binaries are only handled by Mac OS X, meaning that Mac OS X would have to already be running in order to start Leopard. Also, the source given for the claim that Leopard is a universal release just calls it a "universal operating system" appearently in the sense that it is both 32-bit and 64-bit. - Josh (talk | contribs) 22:07, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Universal binaries "are only handled by" OS X in the sense that other OSes don't support that mechanism. Some of the universal binaries that are handled by Mac OS X are themselves part of Mac OS X. The support consists of:
1. support for booting universal-binary kernels (/mach_kernel);
2. support for loading universal-binary kernel extensions;
3. support for launching universal-binary userland code with the exec-family calls;
4. support in the run-time linker for loading universal shared libraries and plugins;
5. universal forms of shared libraries in OS X, so that the libraries a particular universal executable image requires are available for all processor types.
The first of those is part of the OS X booting architecture; that architecture is platform-specific (for one thing, the PowerPC Macs use Open Firmware while the x86 Macs use the Extensible Firmware Interface), so that part isn't universal. Once the kernel is up and running, that gives you the third of those, and that, in combination with support in the user-mode portion of kernel extension loading, gives you the second of those. The run-time linker, which is loaded and run with all dynamically-linked binaries, gives you the fourth of those, and the fifth is a function of the way the OS X binaries are built.
An additional reference for the fact that all the binaries are universal (except perhaps for binaries that don't make sense as universal binaries, such as the binaries that implement Rosetta) would be useful. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Guy Harris (talk • contribs) 23:07, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] new screenshot

could someone take a real screen shot? (i.e. not using a camera) the current screenshot is blurry. 70.189.30.78 (talk) 23:48, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

The current screenshot wasn't taken with a camera. It was just rescaled, because fair use images have to be smaller scale. See Wikipedia:Non-free content AlistairMcMillan (talk) 23:53, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Sorry to say that, but... you guys at wikipedia are even worse than MPAA, RIAA, and all that stuff... regarding copyright law, yeah, sure, you have to reduce the screenshott or else Apple you sue the crap out of you... get real... you are just hurting the people... you just can't see that... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.240.105.104 (talk) 12:18, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Reviews?

What would be really good (it's what I came to this page looking for in fact) would be a summary of the reviews in magazines and authoritative websites. The criticism section has some useful points, but by itself it is disjointed from the rest of the article. At the moment the article is basically a feature list which could have been compiled simply by looking at apple.com and no other sources. Ireneshusband (talk) 23:33, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Also under the critism section why isn't there more? EG: many of the bugs like copying files, incompatibilty etc etc. It needs more outside sources and a general expansion. -Mbatman 72 00:12, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

some bloggers comments about the icon hardly constitute a note in the criticism section. actually most all these criticisms are about the look, not the functionality. im a pc user, and im sure if we wrote a note in the xp/vista sections every time a blogger didnt like the new mouse or minimize icons, the list would never end. editors please consider removing these links in place of a more representative criticisms sections. --77.132.128.229 (talk) 02:01, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] system requirements

Does Moc OS 10.5 run on non-apple-systems w/ Intel-CPUs? Does it run on AMD64-CPUs?

I ask this question, because all of these systems use the AMD64/Intel64 architecture, which is also used on Intel-Macs. --Qaywsxedc (talk) 07:15, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Talk pages aren't really for discussion of the topic of the article, they're for discussion of the article itself, so this isn't really the place to ask the question, but see Apple-Intel architecture and the OSx86 Project Wiki for information on that (the short answer is "Apple doesn't intend it to do so, and make efforts to prevent it from working, but some people have managed to make it work anyway.") Guy Harris (talk) 07:36, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Criticisms

I think that 3 of the 5 criticisms in this article are irrelevant. The first about Logitech incompatibility was just a temporary lack of Leopard support on the part of Logitech; this is not an OS flaw: it only needed newer software. Besides, it was very temporary and doesn't apply anymore. Then, the one about the Leopard GUI, is just nitpicking and a case of tech-culture shock. Finally, the one about Apple being "smug" is hardly an issue with the OS; some people find the icon funny, others think its just stupid, but its not so much a criticisms as it is a comment. Think about it. Althepal (talk) 20:45, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Criticism stemming from culture-shock is a tricky thing to decide if it's worth mentioning as criticism. On one hand, yes, it's actually valid, because it is still inherently a value judgement. On the other hand, if the repetition of that criticism wears off over time, then it is probably not deserving of a permanent spot in the section. I tend to think that a "Reception and sales" type of section, like we have with Windows Vista, would be a better place to discuss comparatively temporal criticism like the visual changes in the UI, or the blue-screen stuff that happened. In terms of completeness, it is a part of the history of the subject, just as other temporal details are, like the fact that the operating system was delayed a couple of times. -/- Warren 22:37, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
Good idea. Though I think the general content of a Reception and sales section here would differ vastly from the one in Windows Vista, because, well, people seem to generally like it (like the changewave study which shows about 81 percent of people who really like it) (though it did spot in PC World's tech disappointment list, too, hehe.). Althepal (talk) 23:59, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] using blogs as references

ok, for the criticisms bit i think using a blogger as a source for saying things about "the reflective icon bar" is ridiculous. for nearly everything in the world can be criticised like that. i can say i dont like the colour of the ford logo, and way it looks old fashioned. i can say i dont like how the windows logo has four colours in and looks child like, and post it on my blog. doesnt mean it can be put into an online encyclopedia? i removed this criticism and it was reverted. its purely cosmetic, i think actual criticisms with merit (not just OPINIONS), should be included. i personally love the new style and design of leopard, why cant i put that on the wikipedia page? because thats my opinion. so why should someone else, of no greater or less merit than me put their opinion on? any thoughts would be welcomed cheers guys this is my 1st discussion lol :)

Citations must be reliable. WP:RS is the policy in question. Almost all blogs fail WP:RS. --Yamla (talk) 00:38, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
Keyword here is "almost"; the blog of a notable commentator or expert, whom we are using as a source for an opinion or critical commentary, is generally valid. WP:SPS addresses this. The key is to make sure that the person we're quoting has had their prior work published in reliable publications. In the case of Rory Prior, who made the comments about Leopard's UI, he's a software developer and has been quoted and interviewed by other publications. Whether someone who is in the business of developing user interfaces for Mac OS X, is a qualified "expert" when it comes to commenting on Leopard's user interface, is perhaps a discussion worth having. All I'm saying is that the fact that it's a blog isn't the important detail; who the person writing the blog is, and in what context, are the vital details. -/- Warren 16:42, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Application compatibility

I really don't know what this section is doing here. Is there anything unusual about old versions of programs not working with new versions of operating systems? If there is less version-to-version software compatibility for Tiger to Leopard as there was for earlier versions, this needs to be clearly stated. Otherwise, its no different from saying something like "Microsoft Word 1.0 no longer works with Windows Vista". (Windows Vista has very poor compatibility with old programs, worse than was the case with XP or Leopard, and that is clearly stated, rather than listing programs.) I think this section needs to be removed or re-worded, because now it just gives the impression that if you buy Leopard, you won't be able to use software. Althepal (talk) 19:04, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

It's there because it's correct, sourced, and likely of interest to a large percentage of users. The comparison to Word 1.0 is inappropriate, because Word 1.0 came out in the mid-1980s, and nobody uses it any more. If Word 2003 (or XP or 2000 or 97) was incompatible with Vista, that would be a much different story, but they all work fine. (Also, people at Microsoft has talked repeatedly and at length about the extent to which Microsoft goes to make sure older applications comtinue to work). The typical age of software that the article is claiming is no longer supported by Leopard is two to three years, and in some cases there aren't any free updates that provide Leopard compatibility.
The first responsibility of an operating system is to provide a platform that runs the user's applications, so application compatibility is a valid and important topic for us to cover. -/- Warren 19:17, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
Sorry but that comparison is just awful. Word 1.0 came out in 1983. How the hell is that anywhere close to the same thing as saying "Final Cut Pro 4.5 (released April 2004) and iDVD 6 (released January 2005) ... are no longer supported."?
Aside from that I generally agree. The section needs to be re-written or removed. What the hell does "no longer supported" mean anyway? Does it not run at all? Do certain features not work on Leopard? Do they run fine but fail to install or vise versa? Or is Apple simply saying, "if you have problems, don't come complaining to us"?
Also what do we mean by "installation ... issues"? Does that mean these won't install at all? Or may only install when certain conditions are met (full moon, sacrificial goat, etc)? What does "stability and reliability issues" mean? Are these programs unusable, or do users just have to deal with random occasional problems? In other words, is it "don't bother even trying" or "remember to save your work regularly" or somewhere in between? AlistairMcMillan (talk) 19:28, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
Forgive my extreme example of Word, but yeah, you get the idea. There are plenty of popular programs that didn't work with Vista, which met a lot of criticism, but that was largely taken care of by the software makers, and individual programs aren't listed. This section in the article, with is own section and specific wording, is confusing. It should be integrated perhaps into the Criticisms section, specifying that past versions of many programs aren't compatible, and not attempt to list every program since that would seem to exclude all the semi-popular, un-listed programs. But really, "a number of industry standard applications that do not work under Leopard" and "Creative industry applications no longer being supported under Leopard include" can seem to refer to the programs themselves (including future versions) and not just old versions. Althepal (talk) 21:02, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
Again, without actually knowing what Apple, Adobe etc mean this section is worse than useless. Do we have any idea what Apple means when they say they "do not support" these applications? Do we have any idea what Adobe mean when they say "issues"? AlistairMcMillan (talk) 21:29, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
As an amusing tangent re Althepal's comments: whilst I couldn't find anyone who's tried to run Word 1.0 on Vista, I did find a screenshot showing, among some other old software, NCSA Mosaic, and Visicalc (1979, for those who've forgotten) running on Vista. I actually wouldn't be at all surprised to find that Word 1.0 ran perfectly fine. -- simxp (talk) 17:37, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Builds

In Tiger the builds were different between Intel and PPC. If this is no longer the case, it should be mentioned in the article. --M1ss1ontomars2k4 (talk) 23:33, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Irrelevant Criticisms

3 of the 5 criticisms are out of date so wouldn't it be better to change them from Criticism to Reception? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.101.170.209 (talk) 13:33, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Since when did criticisms have a best before date? AlistairMcMillan (talk) 15:58, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Stacks List View

I think the image that showing stacks should also include List View. As List View is an addition to Mac OS X Leopard 10.5.2, we should let people know that there is list view as well. Vincent Pun talk 10:46, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Anil Dash

Can someone explain why he's so important that his criticism belongs here? --Steven Fisher (talk) 00:20, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

When someone makes a blog post, and then a bunch of other sites all point to that blog post doesn't that indicate that the blogger is seen as significant? Also that criticism of 10.5 was quite common when the icon was discovered, I don't think we are linking him as if he was the only one making the criticism, just that his post on the subject was perhaps the most prominent. AlistairMcMillan (talk) 12:58, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
"When someone makes a blog post, and then a bunch of other sites all point to that blog post doesn't that indicate that the blogger is seen as significant? " No, actually, I'd argue it doesn't. It means they got to a topic first and someone popular linked to it, and it spread. A blog posting that becomes popular is like a sneeze that becomes an epidemic. I received dozens of links for a post on a security problem in Time Machine, and I'm the very last person to think that post should be used as a reference. That's not bitter grapes; seriously, don't use it! The only complaints I've ever seen the blue screen icon are Anil Dash posts and reactions to it that mention his post. Are we really that desperate to come up with a Criticism section that we need to link to with low quality blogsphere rants? --Steven Fisher (talk) 18:17, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
I'm sorry but I don't understand. Taking your example: Apple co-credited you for finding the flaw, and your posting explains the problem clearly, if we mentioned that flaw on Wikipedia wouldn't your blog post be the obvious reference? On Dash's blog posting, doesn't he have a point. On my own network I have some non-Windows devices (FreeBSD server, ADSL router, etc) that are illustrated on my Macs with BSOD monitors. The message does seem to be: non-Apple devices == unreliable.
Having said that, if you want to remove it from the article by all means go ahead. AlistairMcMillan (talk) 21:21, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
And I'll restore it. The criticism is valid, and the critic is notable enough to have their own Wikipedia article. -/- Warren 22:31, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
No, I'd rather discuss it. :) There's two things I don't understand here. The first is: Why is this criticism notable enough to be mentioned here? It's an icon. A few bloggers complained about it, but most are going to yawn. And the second is a bit like it: What, if anything, qualifies Anil Dash as enough of an expert on icons that his opinion (and it's just that) on them is notable enough to be worth mentioning here? I'm just wondering if we're using this as an excuse to pad out a criticism section in a way that doesn't really make sense. Maybe if this was a Reactions section, it would make sense: it would make sense that the requirement for that would be fame, rather than merit. But I think a lot of those other points are valid criticisms, and reactions would probably lead down the wrong road. (Additional: And I'm fine with this, as long as it has some sort of explanation, other than... "He's a famous blogger, and we needed more in that section.") --Steven Fisher (talk) 00:49, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

"The criticism is valid, and the critic is notable enough to have their own Wikipedia article." Actually, Anil Dash's page is under discussion, as far as whether or not he's notable enough to have his own page. It goes without saying that if that article's ever taken down for that reason, this criticism goes immediately. Even without that, it's a pretty weak critique compared to things such as "the firewall system is a downgrade from previous OS systems" or "you get a blue screen of death trying to install this if you've ever used a logitech mouse". So, not only is Anil Dash's notability in question, his criticism is also much less technical, and much less important. This is an article about Mac's OS, not Mac's principles and ideologies. A criticism that says "the company appears smug" has no place in an article trying to be objective and talking about purely technical issues. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.198.102.148 (talk) 15:03, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Usage on unsupported hardware

Although Apple stated that Mac OS X would not run on Intel-based personal computers aside from its own, a hacked version of the OS compatible with conventional x86 hardware has been developed by the OSx86 community and is available through file-sharing networks such as BitTorrent. (from the Mac OS X article) VTNC (talk) 14:13, 19 April 2008 (UTC)