Talk:Ludlow

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In recent years Ludlow has become an unlikely gastronomic centre. It is the only rural town in England with three Michelin starred restaurants and also has an annual food festival.

Contents

[edit] History

Okay a history of Ludlow has been added, although it is a little weak on the more recent centuries and could use some expansion. Thanks. — RJH 16:35, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Help?

Anyone want to take a look at History of Shropshire- it's sadly lacking in places and I'm sure some material from the history section here could help! EVOCATIVEINTRIGUE TALKTOME | EMAILME | IMPROVEME 18:14, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] extant

At the end of the first para there is the word "extant". This doesn't mean much to me, does anyone know what it means and could it be replaced with another word. SuzanneKn 21:39, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

It means 'existing' or 'surviving' (as in something historical that is still around). But it doesn't add much to the sentence, so I've removed it. Barnabypage 07:42, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
On further examination, the sentence itself is dubious so it's gone... Barnabypage 07:47, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] References

The recent addition of references by User:Jeremy Bolwell, which, although good intentioned, seem incorrect to me. Firstly, because the [link] syntax has been used instead of [1], the article looks cluttered (especially the introduction). However, i'm not sure whether photographs can actually be used as references, especially to this extent. 84.66.212.99 (talk) 15:06, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

The Geograph photos relate closely to the text and enable a varied visual source to support it. One person's cluttered is anothers well cross referenced. (Jeremy Bolwell (talk) 13:23, 4 January 2008 (UTC))

still could do with converting to the below format:

< ref > http: / / bla.com < / ref >

[edit] Geograph?

Just a note that not only is the inclusion of Geograph.org.uk citation excessive, but it is not a reliable source. Geograph.org.uk is an open source community project just like Wikipedia. The commentary beneath the photographs is just personal stuff added by users and may not verifiable. -- Jza84 · (talk) 19:53, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Similarly as noted above but ignored... 84.67.145.16 (talk) 17:18, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Not ignored - trialled to poll opinions - its specifically the geograph photos that are valid/useful not the text some geographers add, although this is also sometimes very useful, if we're takling about verifiability then the whole of Wikipedia can be called into question - lets add some colour, not just dry academic references in swathes of text, lets poll more opinion than one or two..Jeremy Bolwell (talk) 17:41, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry, "dry academic references" are required by policy, not polls or opinions, see WP:A. Geograph is absolutely not a reliable source and users should be reluctant to add them anyway in this capacity. It really does need addressing. -- Jza84 · (talk) 16:52, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
Should they be removed altogether then? I do agree that they seem to indicate relatively nothing reference-wise. Asdfasdf1231234 (talk) 18:47, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
The geograph photos enable anyone to see what is described in the text - you can read and then view the photos, if its of interest. Im sure that you agree that it helps to see something rather than a) imagine it b) attempt to check it out somewhere else (which would be the end result of removing them altogether). There are many more problems with some Wikipedia articles similar to Ludlow's than having 'too many' geograph photos. Remember it is possible that some Wikipedia viewers may actually want to come and visit the town in the real world and would expect to be able to see possible points of interest online first, add to them, add photos etc. Its their views maybe we should also seek. Also, could you give me an example of where a geograph photo in this article is 'absolutely not reliable', 'excessive' or 'indicates nothing'. Im open to ideas that ADD something rather than diminish. If there's a better way lets find it. Jeremy Bolwell (talk) 16:46, 29 February 2008 (UTC).
While I accept they are useful in that they show the place/area you are describing, I will illustrate in some examples below the problems. Anyway, just because other articles have bigger problems than this, that doesn't excuse leaving this article in this state.
  • "and was the location of the market place [1]" - Doesn't show any kind of market, any details on the history of the market.
  • "It lies within a bend of the River Teme [2]" - Shows a part of the river - in no way shows how the river 'bends' around the town Would a map link not be more suitable?
  • "some time around the 12th century weirs [3] were added along the river" - Shows one weir, does not indicate that there's more than one, doesn't support that they were constructed in the 12th century.
I could go on. Essentially, they just show what the place you're describing looks like. But they aren't reliable for many of the statements that are made. Sure, Ludlow has a river running beside the castle; how does this show that it's within a meander? Seems like being overly picky, but I think this is basically what the problem is. Another example would be the weirs- The picture shows one of them, but how does this justify the statement about the time they were built? and that there are many more? (weirs). You could link to a picture of every Weir, but it really isn't the way to go. This is why written references are the norm.
My other main issue with these pictures is that they aren't properly referenced with the < ref > tags. Instead they are just clumsily placed like [ links ] which disrupts the flow of the text; this is particularly noticable in the introduction.
Anyway, I'm not trying to have a go, I just think it looks like a huge mess at the moment and isn't particularly helpful. Asdfasdf1231234 (talk) 18:52, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
I will respond as concisely as I can - in the examples you have selected above as being problematical / spurious the 1st geograph photo you cite actually IS a photo of Ludlow marketplace, the green & white market stalls are visible and the photo shows one aspect of the market square and its scale / size, the 2nd is a photo of the Teme below Ludlow Castle where the river bends as it approaches the huge rocky eminence that the castle sits atop and furthermore an OS map is visible on the geograph photo page (below the photo) showing the bend, the 3rd example you cite shows one of the weirs as it looks today, as its covered by water for most of the year I cant imagine how a photo could effectively depict its construction...?...especially 12th century construction (a Tardis maybe?). I feel you ARE being picky. I live in Ludlow, in the square, and I know all the sites described on Wikipedia and the geograph photos intimately but I feel that even a casual observer / researcher would benefit from their inclusion - if you take a bit of time and study the map on geograph accompanying EVERY photo you will see that. To describe it as 'a huge mess' is I feel over critical, pedantic even, huffy maybe - and after all its just ONE opinion, and your own. Relax, and offer a constructive compromise. I simply want the Ludlow article to be very rich, very well-supported, very informative, very varied, and involving as many possible useful contributors and sources as possible. Other opinions welcome.Jeremy Bolwell (talk) 21:35, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
Well, I do apologise if i've angered you or come off as being overly critical. Perhaps I was a bit picky with the above examples, but I really do feel that geograph images, while they may look pretty, are not what Wikipedia would define as a 'verifiable source'. But alas, we'll see what others say. At the very least, the links should be converted into < ref > format. Thanks. Asdfasdf1231234 (talk) 21:48, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

These geograph references are ridiculous. By all means put a link to the geograph page but I am remioving all the links. --MJB (talk) 21:53, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Ah I see. Got your 'mate' to do the removal of ALL the geograph photos to a single external link; (having any photos that can be tied in with the text is 'ridiculous' of course). No discussion or further opinions. Bland is best. Your way or the highway. Its obviously your article not everyones. I would love to meet you. Pompous - you??!. Sad - you?? Jeremy Bolwell (talk) 08:44, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
Excuse Me, but I did in no way remove or encourage any other user to remove the said images. Even though I agree with what MJB did, I reject your implication that I'm trying to 'own' the article. How dare you personally insult me, when I have remained nothing but civil. Frankly, if anything, it's you who's trying to 'own' the article. Of course you live there, so you must know right. Asdfasdf1231234 (talk) 13:09, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Please WP:AGF. I don't have a particular interest in Ludlow, but I do have an interest in many other articles on Marches towns and villages in which User:Jeremy Bolwell has contributed a great deal of valuable information, and many links to useful, relevant and (as far as I know) available photographs. However, in many cases the contributions do not, unfortunately, comply with WP policy/guidance, in terms of referencing or formatting. So far I've been able to revert some changes but left others, but I would prefer them to be properly formatted throughout. Surely there is scope for a reasonable compromise here, whereby the photographs are used on the pages, where appropriate, without misleading/unverifiable captions, and formatted correctly? I've come to learn that, although Wikipedia pages should be good to look at wherever possible, it's even more important that they should be reliable and verifiable. Ghmyrtle (talk) 11:45, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

I believe - though I've never tried it - that Geograph images can be used through {{geograph}}. Ghmyrtle (talk) 12:01, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
The {{geograph}} tag is only for use in image descriptions. Geograph images may be freely copied and uploaded (to the Commons please!) and then included in articles like any other image. -- RHaworth (Talk | contribs) 17:55, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
I agree. The page was a bloody mess dotted with poor citations. Illusrations are in the text already. --MJB (talk) 11:49, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
Please agree to compromise, not abuse. Ghmyrtle (talk) 12:01, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
At last the voice of reason - thats all I sought initially, views from more than 3 or 4 experienced users with a few life skills and a bit of censensus, after all we obviously all come from the standpoint of wanting the Ludlow article to be improved. I did put the geograph photos on a while back when I was possibly a little too keen on the idea and I can certainly see that they arent perfect now for our purposes - but 'a bloody mess' is hardly a neutral opinion and expressing robust views out of the blue is more than likely to provoke anyone.Jeremy Bolwell (talk) 14:27, 3 March 2008 (UTC)


The page is or was a mess but that is hardly your fault. I am not sure that fault is the correct word full stop. It is clear that the page can be so much better and it may be instructive to look at other Wikipedia:Good articles. Why not adopt it and try to improve it? If it helps I am doing the same with Knighton, Powys. I have no principled objection to geograph but request that you cite correctly. Finally, avoid threats. Bang out of order. --MJB (talk) 15:47, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

No one person is right or wrong here. I've made a few quick corrections to grammar {yes, I can spell it korrectlee), style, etc. as well, and added a tag as the History section is particularly weak on references. The style which should be adopted is set out at WP:UKTOWNS. (By the way, I'm also very well aware that there is a lot more to do on some of "my" articles like Chepstow, which I hope to tackle some time soon.) Ghmyrtle (talk) 17:23, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
Yes, I hardly think getting in a strop, calling people 'pompous', 'sad' and lacking 'life skills' is the best way to further your viewpoint. Asdfasdf1231234 (talk) 18:28, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] WORK

An important town and the making of a good page but lots of wiork needed. For those with the time, the shortcut to the right may be a good starting point

Shortcuts:
WP:UKCITIES
WP:UKTOWNS

- no suggestion that sprinkling liberally with geograph links is best practice! I am focussed on lifting Knighton, Powys to GA status but will try to help. --MJB (talk) 22:03, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Lol! Well I have to admire your appreciation of being bold. I'll drop by every now and then, but I'm actively trying to improve Shrewsbury to GA standard, although admittedly I appear to be failing. Asdfasdf1231234 (talk) 22:11, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Good luck. I was born in Salop so a cause close to my heart. --MJB (talk) 22:15, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] WikiProject Shropshire

Is anyone interested in becoming a member of a WikiProject dedicated to the county of Shropshire? If so, please sign your name underthe proposal. Thanks, Asdfasdf1231234 (talk) 21:23, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Michelin Stars

The Merchant House closed about 2 years ago - I think Sean Hill now has a restaurant in Worcester. Hibiscus has moved to London. This just leaves Mr Underhills. If anyone actually knew Ludlow they'd have corrected this. Why don't I do it - because I think the Gastronomy section needs re-writing, and I don't have time to do it.Thewiltog (talk) 20:36, 18 April 2008 (UTC)