Talk:Lockheed A-12

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Is there any chance of getting a more appropriate image for this article. I think if there is going to be only one image on the page one of the actual plane would be more appropriate, rather than an image of a one-off, rare, training variant. Gfad1 12:24, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

         I agree. The trainer bears a closer (albeit superficial) resemblance to the SR. 
         Let me see what I can scrounge up. ALC

Who flew these aircraft? USAF pilots? CIA pilots? USAF pilots detached/lended to CIA? David.Monniaux 22:00, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

         Different personnel at different times, but by in large these were operated as CIA 
         assets with company pilots. ALC

Shouldn't we be using the Cygnus popular name for the A-12, instead of Oxcart? This was the final popular name for the plane, and the name on the flight suit patch. ALC

Contents

[edit] which is faster?

I thought the SR-71 was the fastest. Maybe it was maid faster later? --Gbleem 20:10, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

The SR-71 has the official record though as they are basically the same plane their top speeds are likely to be very similar. Exact details of these planes are difficult to verify but as the SR-71 was the later of the 2 planes it is likely that it had the benefit of greater development of the engines etc, e.g. computerised control of the shock cones to prevent and/or recover from unstarts. It would seem that the limiting factor on the top speed of these aircraft would have been intake compressor temperature. The known designs for these aircraft's intakes would have overheated at about mach 3.44, though there are suggestions that the SR-71 exceeded even this speed breifly on occassions. It should be noted that the SR-71's officially measured 'top' speed is very close to its transatlantic speed record. Although this is mainly a factor of the plane having a single design speed it also suggests that it might just have had a bit more to give - we will likely as not never know for sure. Who is to say that a pilot would have the same incentive to risk engine destruction to set an academic record as he would have had when missiles were being fired at him?

Thanks for the info. Please review my changes to the article. --Gbleem 20:44, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] How to tell them apart

The text below was removed in July 2005. However, I believe it is useful information especially for laymen because it points out the external differences of the three different kinds of planes. I restored it here to help the laymen to tell these planes apart.

There are three distinctive types of airplane that are all called Blackbirds by the laymen. These three airplanes were designed for different branches of the government, with different mission/operation objectives, design parameters and flight characteristics. Due to the secrecy surrounding these airplanes during their operating years, the military never stepped forward to clarify any confusion regarding these airplanes. These airplanes can be easily distinquished from one another by several very obvious external features:

Image:A12Blackbird.JPG
An A-12 two seater trainer
  • The A-12 is a one seater CIA spy airplane. The single seat cockpit is a telltale sign, with the exception of the one-of-a-kind trainer version shown on the right.
  • The SR-71 is a two seater USAF spy airplane. The two seater cockpit is a telltale sign.
  • The YF-12 is a Air Force fighter interceptor. The cone shaped nose is a telltale sign.

The three airplanes A-12, SR-71 and YF-12 were designed with different capabilities for different missions. Press release photos from the government sometimes mixed up the pictures. It is unknown if the mix up was intentional or not because these projects were secret and unclassified pictures were hard to come by.

[edit] Why did the A-12 retire?

This article is lacking on why the A-12 was retired. All I see are some ambiguous references to the SR-71 replacing it. -71.49.163.77 22:48, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A12 was retired due to money and politics

THe A12 was retired in the late 60s, very shortly after it became operational. The USAF had procured some 33 SR71s, and the argument was that there was no reason to fund both fleets (CIA A12 and USAF SR71). The CIA lost the funding battle; this decision is attributed to McNamara (also known as 'Mac the Knife') for cutting programs. Before being retired the A12 logged operational missions over North Vietnam, and was also used to locate the USS Pueblo in a North Korean harbor after it was captured. The A12 was called the Cygnus by its crews; the OXCART name was not actually the aircraft itself but the name of the program under which the CIA created the aircraft. The A12, being single seat, was actually a little lighter, and thus was marginally faster. The aircraft had a design speed of Mach 3.2, and slightly above that speed the windscreen started to go opaque due to heat effects. The CIA never put the A12 up for record attempts due to its 'deep black' status; thus the SR71 did all the record runs even though it was (very) slightly slower. The first A12 to fly is now at the Blackbird Airpark museum, just on the southern border of Palmdale Plant 42 (near Edwards AFB).Flyer190 06:00, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Groom?

The image box at the bottom currently claims to show a bunch of A-12's "on the ramp at Groom". I'd say that's highly speculative, and frankly rather doubtful if only for the reason that neither the sun angle/shadow fits nor is the mountain range in the background what you'd see if that location was indeed Groom Lake. Just doesn't add up. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.33.240.163 (talk) 12:07, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Given the limited production quantity, the limited locations they were ever located, and the number of craft in the photograph, where else could it have been? - Thaimoss 21:48, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] A-12 aircraft on display

There's redundant info on this section of the article. There are 8 planes remaining, 5 lost - detailed in the table, but the 8 planes are mentioned again right below the table —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.70.88.207 (talk) 22:52, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. I had originally included a section on Production, and in that section the airframe numbers were detailed, along with abbreviated references to the fate. The Production section eventually got removed, and the data embedded and dispersed elsewhere. The result was that a "after service life" section on "On Display" ended up being right alongside the "Production" information that was originally nearer to the beginning. This made that information obviously duplicative. Good catch. Please have a look now. - Thaimoss (talk) 12:22, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
This works well. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 12:28, 17 May 2008 (UTC).